Vancouver Downtown Streetcar | Proposed

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Good! I'm sorry I know a lot of people will disagree with me but I just didn't get it, waste of money! Use a bus instead. And as for the tourist aspect meh how many people really would care.

I agree. I get that it's on rails so automatically it's cooler than buses, but there is really no reason to use streetcars. Just not worth the cost.

[officedweller]

It wasn't necessarily a "transit" project, more of an attraction.

I wonder if this train is "safe"?

http://vancouver.ca/parks-recreation...ure-train.aspx

[itinerant]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Do you know how much it would cost to run this street car every year or are you just blowing smoke?

A city wide bike sharing program is a little different than a one-stop rail service that duplicates part of an existing bike route.

I think the comparison with the bike share program is simply to illustrate where Vision Vancouver's priorities are with respect to transit. Initiatives for promotiong travel by bicycle are serving a different user than what would be served by a streetcar. Your assertion that it is duplicating an existing bike route is meaningless when this train is all about extending the Canada Line traveller to Granville Island.

The one-stop rail service is as a result of changes to the line that prior to the Olympics went from Science World to Granville Island and was running the old cars. During the Olympics it was cut in half. The land to the East of Cambie bridge has been developed right over top of the old rail in many places, presumably pending a future realignment. The new rail line was build for the 'one-stop' demonstration line between the mis-named Olympic Village stop on Canada Line and Granville island, and took advantage of the tourist influx for the Olympics.

One-stop was never the goal. Proponents of the streetcar line connecting Granville Island to Stanley Park and points in between would argue this is a valuable connection that serves not just tourists, but anyone wishing to travel across the centre of the city on a priority route.

The heritage cars are a nice part of the system for those who wish to revisit the good old days of inner city transit as a tourist, or misty-eyed resident. I personally like them. Assuming they can run on the new rail and work side-by-side with new cars, I think they're great! If they're only running one-stop for the summer months or weekends, I think thats great too. Hopefully there is some future visionary coucil who will see the value of the streetcar component of our transportation network and make it the many-stop line it should be.

Budgeting to keep the heritage cars we have now running, and keeping the rail line in operation should be a no-brainer for council. Translink should promote this connection as part of the Canada Line, and install fare card readers.

[Millennium2002]

I think Geoff Meggs is missing the point regarding the streetcars; they were never meant to be money-makers, but rather represent a part of our city's history that is now mostly gone. A lot of these interurbans and streetcars were burned in the 1960s after the system was shut... and whatever we have left is basically irreplaceable. I mean... look at our heritage building stock. A lot of it was lost at around the same time, and only now are we investing heavily (money and politically) on protecting what is left (although yes, these things also carry with them huge profit potentials). Also, these things aren't exactly expensive to maintain: the FVRS managed to get itself running last year with minimal government support. Of course, it might feel expensive if Geoff Meggs decided that his next pet projects are to remove the viaducts and build condos on heavily polluted areas, but anyway... I'm not suggesting that money be poured into these machines like mad, but they at least deserve a home and place here for all to see and be proud of.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Disappointing news.

http://www.news1130.com/2014/03/23/e...eek-streetcar/



It seems the only time Vision values heritage is when it guts a building and uses the facade to add value to condos for millionaires.

They city has time to invest millions in a shaky propped up bicycle share program run by a bankrupt company but can't spare a fraction of that to keep the only built in BC streetcar still in existence running to provide a service to tourists when all of the expensive infrastructure (track and wires) are already in place.

And despite the fact the right of way is place for a permanent, modern streetcar, like the Bombardier units that ran during the Olympics, Vision Vancouver would rather spend that money on tearing down the viaducts.

[Smooth]

I also find it unfortunate that Vision is so disinterested in seeing the streetcar line succeed.

This is a classic case of underfunding/reducing capacity until it's not practical for people to use it, then killing it because it's losing money and no longer working like it was originally envisioned (sound like any other piece of transportation infrastructure in the city?).

If Phase 0 was re-established, street cars running at a decent frequency between Science World and Canada Line's Olympic Village Station would be the fastest connection between the Expo Line and Canada Line. The connection to Granville Island would be of secondary importance.

Given that a Millennium Line extension to UBC is still probably another 10+ years away and the B-Line can't be expanded much more, I believe that the streetcar line could keep the Broadway corridor from being completely clogged over the next decade.

[spm2013]

Well if they're going to waste money (which they'll do regardless) you might as well do it in style and on rails.

[splashflash]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

I think Geoff Meggs is missing the point regarding the streetcars; they were never meant to be money-makers, but rather represent a part of our city's history that is now mostly gone. A lot of these interurbans and streetcars were burned in the 1960s after the system was shut... and whatever we have left is basically irreplaceable. I mean... look at our heritage building stock. A lot of it was lost at around the same time, and only now are we investing heavily (money and politically) on protecting what is left (although yes, these things also carry with them huge profit potentials). Also, these things aren't exactly expensive to maintain: the FVRS managed to get itself running last year with minimal government support. Of course, it might feel expensive if Geoff Meggs decided that his next pet projects are to remove the viaducts and build condos on heavily polluted areas, but anyway... I'm not suggesting that money be poured into these machines like mad, but they at least deserve a home and place here for all to see and be proud of.

I think Dave Stumpo tried to do the same type of project for the Brill trolleybuses. The issue is that the city run transit (and now there will be done) is not integrated with the regional transit. If Translink had the money, perhaps they could endeavour on this project, but then they would need to do the same for the Cloverdale heritage rail... Volunteers had done a lot of the work, and as soon as regional transit labour were to take over this project, the costs would skyrocket, especially since it has not been built out for economy of scale, requiring specialization. Geoff is being practical. The city-wide bike program has been a success, in my opinion and is not a valid comparison.

[AverageJoe]

I think it's most unfortunate. I used to volunteer for the Downtown Historic Railway, some years ago. The entire DHR is run by unpaid volunteers who do the maintenance and the operations in their own spare time, keeping the cars in prime condition using what parts could be found (or made). It used to be very popular when it ran and cost the city a paltry $800k a year, probably the cost of the paint for the bike lanes.

The DHR volunteers are mostly retirees. I tried to find some sources for funding for them but haven't been able to come up with anything thus far. It's kind of sad to see this little piece of Vancouver history being tossed away.

[sacrifice333]

Personally I don't think an occasionally operated Historic Streetcar has any relation to a regularly scheduled modern service between Science World and Olympic Village Station and/or Granville Island.

One is fun to do on the weekend with your kids or visiting relatives. The other is a regular and viable part of our transportation infrastructure. Hopefully Vision understands this.

They've placeheld a MASSIVE median on West 1st, built a temporary "sidewalk" along Pacific Ave's median, and more. Getting between Skytrain and Granville Island or Canada Line; travelling from SEFC to Gastown, travelling from East to West downtown or vice versa are all quite inefficient right now. I believe the streetcar proposal solves much of this.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Do you know how much it would cost to run this street car every year or are you just blowing smoke?

A city wide bike sharing program is a little different than a one-stop rail service that duplicates part of an existing bike route.

Yeah, they are very different and that is my point. The city is putting all it's eggs into one basket, a basket that is optimal less than half a year and isn't for everyone (few enjoy riding a bike when it is raining, and many seniors and people with disabilities are unable to). Yet the city is content on dumping money into what is being proven an unprofitable venture.

Last I heard, when the city pulled funding a few years ago, the DHR was looking for $100,000 to keep running. The city was expecting to subsidize Bixi with $500,000 a year after a $6 million investment to buy 250 bikes. Why is that subsidy perfectly justified while investing a fraction of that in something that got at least 550 bordings/day of operation (entirely on word of mouth) AND is a living museum is not?

Originally Posted by sacrifice333

Personally I don't think an occasionally operated Historic Streetcar has any relation to a regularly scheduled modern service between Science World and Olympic Village Station and/or Granville Island.

One is fun to do on the weekend with your kids or visiting relatives. The other is a regular and viable part of our transportation infrastructure. Hopefully Vision understands this.

They've placeheld a MASSIVE median on West 1st, built a temporary "sidewalk" along Pacific Ave's median, and more. Getting between Skytrain and Granville Island or Canada Line; travelling from SEFC to Gastown, travelling from East to West downtown or vice versa are all quite inefficient right now. I believe the streetcar proposal solves much of this.

I would agree too that the optimal solution would be to buy new streetcars and extend the tracks to at least Science world (then bring out the heritage streetcar on Sundays in the summer to run in supplement). If closing down the DHR as it is today was part of a larger goal, I would be all for it. But it is not.

They are just abandoning 2 heritage objects of irreplaceable value and a $10 million dollar investment on the rails (that they can't get back by cancelling this) and throwing to the curb a crew of dedicated volunteers who wanted to do nothing but spread Vancouver history and culture to locals and tourists. All so they can funnel money to their own focused pet project. They are cancelling a program that worked in favor of a bike share program riddled with problems that is still years away from being a reality.

[officedweller]

The median is just waiting there...

Originally Posted by Genauso

A couple shots from SEFC.



source: me, earlier this week

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

They are just abandoning 2 heritage objects of irreplaceable value and a $10 million dollar investment on the rails (that they can't get back by cancelling this) and throwing to the curb a crew of dedicated volunteers who wanted to do nothing but spread Vancouver history and culture to locals and tourists. All so they can funnel money to their own focused pet project. They are cancelling a program that worked in favor of a bike share program riddled with problems that is still years away from being a reality.

To be fair, those "heritage objects" will still be cared for by the volunteers, they won't be lost or abandoned. All they're doing is to stop throwing money at them to support a very, very small ridership. The only way that railway would be viable is to extend the tracks to Science World so that it could link up with the Expo line as well. And the problem is that with volunteer labour the service reliability may still keep the line from becoming mainstream.

The city is doing due diligence on the bike share plan. I personally think it's probably doomed unless they get somehow get an exemption from the helmet laws, but one way or another I have little doubt that a bike share facility would at least benefit more people than the existing railway.

[a very long weekend]

the western world's light rail renaissance/boom feels like it's closer to the end than to the beginning, so hopefully vancouver pulls the trigger soon. like the reserved alignments along arbutus, into vanier park, from granville island to quebec street, along pacific blvd - it'd be a shame for those to sit idle rather than to guide further development along those corridors, particularly with the fairview redevelopments coming up over the next decade or two.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

the western world's light rail renaissance/boom feels like it's closer to the end than to the beginning.

What makes you say that?? What do you think will become the dominant form of transit if the light rail fad does end?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

What makes you say that?? What do you think will become the dominant form of transit if the light rail fad does end?

Grade separated rail is the way to go. Whatever you want to call it is up to you, but it's faster and safer for all.

[Metro-One]

I must say it is a shame about the Streetcar. I don't necessarily care to have the full build out of the Streetcar, but I do believe that the Phase 0 aspect (Science World to Granville Island) should be completed and operating, for several reasons:

1. The entire RoW has been reserved.

2. 2 of the platforms / stations and around half of the rails are already built / in place and are now sitting idle as some bizarre Olympic legacy.

3. The Phase 0 aspect would be well utalized given the fact that it would go through the Olympic village and all the other massive developments along the SEFC, connect the Canada Line with the Expo line, make a direct connection from the Expo line to Granville Island, etc.. To me, it is one of the few grade level train routes that makes a lot of sense!

4. Locals and tourists alike would use this line (for reasons above) so it would play a dual role as a tourist attraction and as a regular commuter train.

5. If Vision Vancouver has enough money to tear down useful infrastructure that still has 40 years of life left, then there pro-environmental philosophy must have enough money to fund this short street car project that would honestly be more akin to an LRT.

In all honesty, when I lived in south Van I would have gone to Granville Island and area far more often than I did if the Streetcar was there. My girlfriend and I walked down the rail bed a few times and she (being from Japan) was so perplexed that there was a station at Olympic Village Station, a new railway, and a station at Granville Island, but no fucking train! yes, there is a bus, but in all honesty I have no desire to use the bus to go to Granville Island, a tram / LRT, yes please, I know, its strange but that is how many people are!

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Grade separated rail is the way to go. Whatever you want to call it is up to you, but it's faster and safer for all.

I agree, that's why his post got me so excited. The sooner light rail dies the better transit will be.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Grade separated rail is the way to go. Whatever you want to call it is up to you, but it's faster and safer for all.

I agree. I've never understood the attraction of at-grade rail. It just doesn't seem to me that it provides enough benefit over and above what you can achieve with buses, especially modern ones which can include multiple articulated units. Pretty much all of the things that LRT proponents tout as advantages can also be applied to buses, including dedicated rights of way.

IMHO it boils down to at-grade transit for basic to intermediate capacity, and grade separation beyond that. Next to that basic choice, the technology you choose to use for each has only a relatively minor impact on the kind of service you're able to provide.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I agree. I've never understood the attraction of at-grade rail. It just doesn't seem to me that it provides enough benefit over and above what you can achieve with buses, especially modern ones which can include multiple articulated units. Pretty much all of the things that LRT proponents tout as advantages can also be applied to buses, including dedicated rights of way.

IMHO it boils down to at-grade transit for basic to intermediate capacity, and grade separation beyond that. Next to that basic choice, the technology you choose to use for each has only a relatively minor impact on the kind of service you're able to provide.

My views exactly.