MetroTunnel

[LeftCoaster]

So I've been pondering one of the biggest strengths and weaknesses of Metro Vancouver transportation and it is I would say the linear nature of the developed areas, and the multi-nodal nature.

I recently was in London, and last year in Vienna, and was able to view the crossrail project in London and enjoy the completed Lainz and Wienerwald Tunnels which are large city crossing rail tunnels. This got me thinking of how a single line multi-track tunnel could solve several of Vanocuver's transportations woes in one (expensive) solution.

A tunnel, double tracked at least, running from downtown to the edge of Surrey, hitting major town centres along the way, providing for HSR speeds but also capacity for local train service with pullouts for commuter rail stations allowing faster regional trains to pass at speed.

This would check three boxes:

1. Commuter rail to Langley, Abbotsford and beyond
2. Relief line for the Expo line, which will hit capacity in a couple decades
3. A way to get Cascadia HSR into the city core

I see a very sensible routing as follows:



Red is the shared use "MetroTunnel"
Black is commuter rail
Blue is the HSR spur down to the border

It's a roughly 27km tunnel, so it would be very expensive, but the problems solved by it and the flexibility it would provide to transportation in the lower mainland would be incredible.

The line would be follow the Grandview cut to Victoria then run U/G until 168th St, where it would go above grade and branch into as many options as make sense (Commuter Rail to Chilliwack, Commuter Rail to South Surrey, HSR to Seattle/Portland etc.) or any other number of options.

I think you could rationalize some of the construction costs by utilizing cut and cover and running at grade where possible.

My thoughts on construction methods are:



Green is surface or some form of above grade
Red is a bored tunnel
Blue is a cut and cover tunnel

Blue Stations are a Commuter Rail / Expo relief stations
Red Stations are combined HSR and Commuter Rail / Expo relief stations

What do you guys think?

[jollyburger]

I think in the context of a larger HSR project then it might make sense for the tunnel since there is no other way they can get a line into anywhere close to downtown Vancouver using surface routes.

Seoul is developing the GTX inner-city HSR with tunnels 50m down

BTW The Cascadia Innovation Corridor conference starts tomorrow

https://connectcascadia.com/conference/

[Migrant_Coconut]

Yeah, I'm getting $7-8 billion for the tunnel alone; it's a decent pitch, but not "two and a half SkyTrains" decent. Gotta be part of the HSR.

[FarmerHaight]

I could have sworn this was going to be about a tunnel under first or second narrows lol.

If the BC, Washington, and Oregon governments decide to spend $40 billion to build the Cascadia railway and end the project in Surrey that would be completely short-sighted. I agree with Migrant: this project would be incredible for the benefits to regional commuter rail alone, but HSR will need to be the catalyst. It's too much on its own.

[madog222]

That New Westminster station will be deep!

Will cut & cover along Fraser Hwy even be possible after the skytrain line is built?

[ilikeredheads]

You can't have HSR share tracks with anything else. It's simply impractical due to the difference in speed. HSR needs its own set of dedicated tracks or else it can't run at high speed.

[Klazu]

Our Metro is so vast and distances so long that express tracks for a parallel Expo Line SkyTrain would make so much sense. Likely this would have to be in tunnel in many places.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

You can't have HSR share tracks with anything else. It's simply impractical due to the difference in speed. HSR needs its own set of dedicated tracks or else it can't run at high speed.

It just won't run at HSR speeds on the shared section.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by madog222

It just won't run at HSR speeds on the shared section.

I think it would be a choice of either slightly slower speeds (150km/h) or full speeds with scheduled clear track times. I can't imagine at the outset there being more than 1 train per hour so clearing the tracks for the 6-7 minutes it would take HSR to transverse the 27km shared tunnel shouldn't be too difficult.

If the HSR becomes extremely popular it could necessitate more drastic fixes, but to be honest if we're running more than 1 train per hour that's a ton of capacity and likely still not an issue for double tracks with pullouts for stations. Commuter rail trains can hold in the stations for a few minutes while the HSR wizzes by then continue on their way. You could probably send 4 HSR trains out per hour and still run 15 minute commuter rail frequencies if you schedule it well, which is a ton of capacity.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by madog222

That New Westminster station will be deep!

Will cut & cover along Fraser Hwy even be possible after the skytrain line is built?

I think cut and cover would work down Fraser Hwy, but it would be quite disruptive. I personally think the long term gains would be worth it but it would be a debate no doubt. Where I think it may be more difficult is in the Boundary to Edmonds stretch through Metrotown, not sure if going down Beresford is feasible but the east and west legs seemed do-able.

WRT depth of stations and tunnels I didn't factor that in as much as I should have, but I appreciate the insight, that's why I posted it here. New West may be too deep, and honestly maybe it's not worth having a station there. New west isn't a major growth town centre and seems to not be very pro growth or development. Still would prefer to have a station there but Metrotown and Surrey Central are the real keys to a Expo relief line.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Yeah, I'm getting $7-8 billion for the tunnel alone; it's a decent pitch, but not "two and a half SkyTrains" decent. Gotta be part of the HSR.

ya it's really got to be a part of all 3, HSR, Expo Relief and Commuter Rail expansion.

The later 2 are medium-long term priorities for Translink, but the HSR is the wildcard that would make or break this idea.

If all 3 fall into place I could see something like this making sense though.

[Offside_Ref]

There would have to be some sort of customs office at any HSR stations, which would likely mean separate platforms. The Surrey-Vancouver trip pair on the HSR might be a bit silly, which means the HSR itself wouldn't be serving as Expo relief. Still serves as capital catalyst though.

[Henbo]

I agree something like this needs to be built - as you mention there are so many emerging regional priorities that fit within it (HSR, commuter rail to valley). It would almost be our version of Montreal’s REM.

I’d also argue that the section into Vancouver should be built to eventually allow a cross burrard inlet tunnel to enable passenger rail service direct from downtown to Squamish/Whistler, which would also accommodate skytrain (without wading too much into the north shore crossing alignment debate)

[Migrant_Coconut]

In the unlikely event that any kind of HSR north of downtown ever makes sense, it's probably not going to be compatible with anything but HSR. High speeds like 400 km/h require a straight ROW with very minimal turns... and "straight through Stanley Park to Dunderave and then (somehow) up to Squamish" would make for a real lousy SkyTrain route.

[BaddieB]

The whole-heartedly agree with the route along the Burrard Peninsula (except that station in-between Metrotown and New West is not needed, and a Pacific Central terminal). However, I think the route by Surrey should be different as to not just be parallel to the Expo. However, I'm not too familiar south of Surrey so it's not my place. There needs to be Expo Line relief.

A Pacific Central terminal however makes the line pointless. People who want to go downtown have to take another transfer onto the Skytrain. It's going only halfway. The line must end a waterfront, and there is a rail route that permits this.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

A Pacific Central terminal however makes the line pointless. People who want to go downtown have to take another transfer onto the Skytrain. It's going only halfway. The line must end a waterfront, and there is a rail route that permits this.

I disagree. Pacific Central is a 15-minute walk to BC Place and Rodgers arena and is even closer to south-east false creek and Olympic Village. Taking transit to access the financial district, Granville island, or Stanley Park is not an issue. Pacific Central could also be better linked to the Science World Skytrain station making the transfer smoother.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

In the unlikely event that any kind of HSR north of downtown ever makes sense, it's probably not going to be compatible with anything but HSR. High speeds like 400 km/h require a straight ROW with very minimal turns... and "straight through Stanley Park to Dunderave and then (somehow) up to Squamish" would make for a real lousy SkyTrain route.

Do you mean a lousy HSR route? Because a route up tp Squamish would do a lot of turns to conform to the road reducing its speed significantly unless it's all tunneled directly to Squamish (or something) .

Originally Posted by BaddieB

A Pacific Central terminal however makes the line pointless. People who want to go downtown have to take another transfer onto the Skytrain. It's going only halfway. The line must end a waterfront, and there is a rail route that permits this.

I agree to an extent.

I believe that part of the whole purpose behind the ideation of this Metro Tunnel was that the WCE rails are perceived as being off limits; and that the corridor will never be renegotiated. Therefore it makes actually getting to Waterfront Station much more difficult.

But yeah, I do agree that trying to connect the Metro Tunnel to downtown Vancouver (via Waterfront) should be a priority of some kind.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

To provide more feedback...

- I do think that the White Rock route is a little wonky and could get cut. I just don't see the service levels requiring a commuter rail.

- The city/province will need a hell of a negotiator with CPR/CN to get the rail through Langley. They would at least need to quad-track it with some additional grade separations.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I disagree. Pacific Central is a 15-minute walk to BC Place and Rodgers arena and is even closer to south-east false creek and Olympic Village. Taking transit to access the financial district, Granville island, or Stanley Park is not an issue. Pacific Central could also be better linked to the Science World Skytrain station making the transfer smoother.

Waterfront's also jammed with SkyTrain and SeaBus passengers, while Pacific still has room for additional foot traffic and a customs area.

Originally Posted by scryer

Do you mean a lousy HSR route? Because a route up tp Squamish would do a lot of turns to conform to the road reducing its speed significantly unless it's all tunneled directly to Squamish (or something) .

SkyTrain, because any route would skip the West End, Stanley Park, Ambleside, Park Royal or pretty much any reason to have a First Narrows crossing in the first place. So everybody loses.

Heck, if we've got that much money and land anyway, we might as well try a SkyBus route up the Sea to Sky. Expand to Fraser Valley, Okanagan and Kamloops if it turns out well.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Offside_Ref

There would have to be some sort of customs office at any HSR stations, which would likely mean separate platforms. The Surrey-Vancouver trip pair on the HSR might be a bit silly, which means the HSR itself wouldn't be serving as Expo relief. Still serves as capital catalyst though.

Would definitely need full customs at HSR stops, likely far larger than current setup at Pacific Central given the big bump in ridership required to make a business case for the HSR.

Since the HSR stops are only located at Surrey Central (Optional) and Pacific Central I think a special platform could be made here to keep un-cleared and pre-cleared passengers separate from general traffic. If something like this were to go ahead in the future I would anticipate Surrey Central to be a somewhat large interchange station, befitting of the secondary metro core it is likely to grow into over the next few decades.

Originally Posted by scryer

I believe that part of the whole purpose behind the ideation of this Metro Tunnel was that the WCE rails are perceived as being off limits; and that the corridor will never be renegotiated. Therefore it makes actually getting to Waterfront Station much more difficult.

But yeah, I do agree that trying to connect the Metro Tunnel to downtown Vancouver (via Waterfront) should be a priority of some kind.

I was thinking the HSR could end at Pacific Central with a spur sending the commuter to pacific Central, likely a bored tunnel. It would be an expensive tack-on but likely worth it given the high total costs of the project.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Heck, if we've got that much money and land anyway, we might as well try a SkyBus route up the Sea to Sky. Expand to Fraser Valley, Okanagan and Kamloops if it turns out well.

Would love to see rail up the sea to sky, but that is very unlikely in the medium or even long term future. Just not enough population and way too many geographical limitations. I think a commuter bus like GO in Toronto would be great for Squamish and even Whistler, though there are so many bus options to Whistler already it might not be worth it.

[jollyburger]

I wonder with a system like HSR would translate into a more flexible customs program related to Nexus.