NASHVILLE Transit/Light Rail/BRT Proposal

[nationramps]

Thanks for giving updated information !!

[jmecklenborg]

A coworker just moved his daughter into a college in Nashville. They ran a few midday errands and he complained that the traffic was horrendous. Then it was 2 hours to get from Downtown on I-65 to the hill up to Kentucky.

All of the nay-sayers to Nashville's transit proposal don't get just how bad things are there.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

A coworker just moved his daughter into a college in Nashville. They ran a few midday errands and he complained that the traffic was horrendous. Then it was 2 hours to get from Downtown on I-65 to the hill up to Kentucky.

All of the nay-sayers to Nashville's transit proposal don't get just how bad things are there.

it's taken me two hours to get from east nashville to bowling green, ky no doubt. going up I-24, i'm across the bridge, in illinois, and halfway to st. louis in that same time...

[Busy Bee]

Since Tenn is the volunteer state, can't they just offer free labor to help get a system built with a reasonable budget?

[lrt's friend]

greater transit availability does not necessarily mean improved traffic congestion. A perfect example is Toronto. Toronto has one of North America's best transit systems but also has some of the worst traffic.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

greater transit availability does not necessarily mean improved traffic congestion. A perfect example is Toronto. Toronto has one of North America's best transit systems but also has some of the worst traffic.

Are the length and width of the roads in Toronto exactly the same as in other places in North America?

Toronto is 2 to 3 times denser than the typical urban area in North America, so its road system covers an urban area that is only 1/2 or 1/3 the size. In other words, the roads in Toronto only go 1/2 or 1/3 of the distance. Therefore the capacity of its road system could be assumed to be only around 1/2 or 1/3 of other urban areas, if the amount of lanes is the same.

If you were to remove 1/2 or 2/3 of the roads or road lanes in other urban areas, would they still be less congested than Toronto? Somehow I doubt it.

I think improved transit could help congestion in Nashville a lot, all other things being equal (density, road capacity). Transit is a way to increase the capacity of the transportation system without increasing the physical footprint of that system.

Bus takes up less space than 50 cars. A bus stop takes up less space than a parking lot. Instead of reducing congestion, the aim of increased transit could instead be to reduce the overall footprint of the transportation system (roads, parking), opening more land to development and increasing the density.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by Doady

Nashville's transit ridership compared to other bus-based systems in 2017:

Ottawa (OC Transpo): 139,654,900
Seattle (KC Metro):  127,499,500
San Antonio (VIA):    37,353,000
Austin (Cap Metro):   28,332,200
Albany (CDTA):        16,654,100
Cincinatti (SORTA):   14,491,700
Champaign (MTD):      11,553,500
Nashville (MTA):       9,599,500

If no one is using the bus lines, it is pointless to upgrade them to higher capacity like light rail or subway. One step at a time. Expand the bus system first. When the buses can no longer handle the ridership, then it will be time to think about light rail.

1. Not really entirely true. If traffic is terrible then buses gets stuck and end up going slow as molasses. A grade-separated light rail would be far faster and therefore more useful.

2. Not sure the most politically correct way to say this, but I went to college in Nashville and tried to ride the bus once.. and did not feel very safe at all. Call it whatever you want, but at the end of the day if people don't feel safe on the bus then they aren't going to ride it.

[jmecklenborg]

That list makes it look like each of those cities are achieving the max ridership they could, when in fact funding levels (and types) are much different from one to the next.

Originally Posted by BrownTown

1. Not really entirely true. If traffic is terrible then buses gets stuck and end up going slow as molasses. A grade-separated light rail would be far faster and therefore more useful.

Traffic in Nashville is really, really, really bad. It's bad on the interstates. It's bad on the arterial roads. It's bad downtown. It's bad near Vanderbilt. It's bad in the suburbs.

Changing that situation with buses alone would require billions -- yes billions --of bus specific infrastructure. Bus-only interstate highway lanes. Bus-only lanes on West End, Gallatin, Charlotte, etc. A bus-only tunnel downtown so that the buses can...move.

So those of you calling for more buses don't realize the severity of the problem or that the cost of doing rail is only incrementally higher than doing big-time bus improvements.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

1. Not really entirely true. If traffic is terrible then buses gets stuck and end up going slow as molasses. A grade-separated light rail would be far faster and therefore more useful.

2. Not sure the most politically correct way to say this, but I went to college in Nashville and tried to ride the bus once.. and did not feel very safe at all. Call it whatever you want, but at the end of the day if people don't feel safe on the bus then they aren't going to ride it.

I compared Nashville's numbers only to other bus systems, and I think it is clear Nashville can do more with buses. Buses can be separated from traffic as well. Bus lanes, queue jump lanes, median transitway, grade-separated transitway.

Building a transit system, building transit ridership, is always a comprehensive and continuous process. We should not think of transit expansion as a one time thing, or get too focused one plan or one mode. I think it is the wrong idea.

LRT is a good idea for Nashville, but it needs to be part of a plan to improve bus ridership. And as you can see in the numbers, the bus ridership in Nashville needs drastic improvement. LRT will not be successful in isolation. They need to build towards LRT, over many years, one step at a time.

It's the same with BRT. What's the point of building BRT if people aren't willing to use the regular bus routes connecting to it? Any sort of higher order transit line needs to be part of a comprehensive and complete transit system. Nashville needs to establish that comprehensive and complete system to prepare for LRT and BRT. With less than 9 million riders per year annually, they clearly do not have such a system, and they will never have that unless they add a lot of buses.

It is not surprising the buses in Nashville are not safe since there are so few bus riders. Nashville's buses must be for the people at the bottom of society, the last resort, but it doesn't have to be.

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by Doady

Nashville's buses must be for the people at the bottom of society, the last resort, but it doesn't have to be.

To be honest, that's how many people view riding the bus; particularly in the South.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

To be honest, that's how many people view riding the bus; particularly in the South.

Because it's pretty much true. Even MARTA rail is only "safe" during business hours. "Bus people" is a real thing and most people would prefer to avoid them if they can. The crime (or even just the perception of it) associated with transit is a huge hurdle to overcome in places with poor inner cities and more well off suburbs. There's a whole host of transit projects that have been axed as a result. The one that probably sticks out most in my mind is the Baltimore Red Line getting axed right after the riots. That was a pretty clear cause and effect IMO even though it wasn't explicitly mentioned as such.

[Dale]

Nashvillian LRT fetishists are frustrating themselves needlessly. Primarily because it's not going to happen. Secondarily because LRT doesn't work. Throw in a third: objectively, Nashville traffic is not really that bad.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Dale

Nashvillian LRT fetishists are frustrating themselves needlessly. Primarily because it's not going to happen. Secondarily because LRT doesn't work. Throw in a third: objectively, Nashville traffic is not really that bad.

But I don't think people who aren't from Seattle or NYC get that people who already have cars won't take the bus. I took the bus the other day and its waaaaay less pleasant than our train system. And the cliental is really different. The vast majority of the people on the bus were old ladies and people going to a job but theres always that element of " oh man, what dudes are about to get on the bus now" at this next stop.

I don't think people understand how much preception matters. Middle income folks who would never sale their car would never.....ever....take the bus. The train? Heck yeah.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Dale

Nashvillian LRT fetishists are frustrating themselves needlessly. Primarily because it's not going to happen. Secondarily because LRT doesn't work. Throw in a third: objectively, Nashville traffic is not really that bad.

Trolling.

[Doady]

Dale isn't totally wrong. LRT shouldn't be thought of as a way to attract riders. For example, Calgary has lower ridership per capita now with LRT than it did before it built LRT. Calgary built LRT because it already had a successful system, not because it desired to have a successful system. LRT should be thought more as a way to increase the capacity of a system that is already growing, to replace a bus route that is so successful and can no longer be served with buses.

Building LRT as an anti-bus initiative is just a recipe for failure unless you want build a transit system is all LRTs and zero buses. NYC has the highest rail ridership per capita in the US, and it also has the highest bus ridership per capita in the US. The more rail Nashville builds, the more buses it will need. If the people aren't willing to ride buses, then don't bother building any rail, it's as simple as that.

[lrt's friend]

In the south, there is this perception, that pubic transit is a welfare service in many cities. It is not about moving the population. The perception is self-defeating because it gives a negative impression of transit to the whole population. Only poor people or worse take transit. This gives the crime perception as well.

In that respect, bold action needs to take place. It needs to be targeted.

So many cities are experiencing growing congestion issues but because of the negative transit perception, it is ruled out as an option. We have lost generations of potential transit riders and because they have no idea of how to use it, they only see the fearful perceptions. But at the same time, congestion is creating pent up demand for an alternative but there is a resistance.

A starting point is to serve colleges and universities well and get young people accustomed to using transit. I gather that some universities have private transit systems but this provides an island away from reality. University service should be part of the regular system so it is all integrated and students mix with the general population. In serving universities, there needs to be good service and needs to connect to locations of general interest so that other potential transit riders can take advantage of the same service. Here, there are student passes that are included in their tuition. That allows students to hop on a bus anytime and go anywhere that service is provided. It helps start building a transit culture with the next generation. It helps erode negative perceptions. It gives the next generation a connection to transit, that the last few generations have lacked.

Improve service on key routes to and from downtown and do what our city has done and include transit in the ticket price for major sporting events. Effectively, make it easier to use transit than driving to the game. Here, buses go to all major parts of the city so that you can park n ride and head directly to the game. Your game ticket gives you a free transit ride up to 3 hours before the game and up to 3 hours after the game. Go early to party or stay late. It works really well.

Investments need to made to rebrand the transit system. Buses need to look clean, bright and modern. Stations and shelters need to be modernized and branded and trash needs to be cleaned up. Every effort needs to be made to overcome the negative stereotypes.

Notice, that I am talking about buses.

LRT is great, but there is always the last mile problem with rail. Any investment in rail will not be very successful unless there is an effective and attractive connecting bus system.

Nashville clearly has failed to make their bus network attractive. This needs to be a first priority before opening a very expensive rail system.

[SIGSEGV]

Bus stigma isn't just a problem in the south (and it's probably the explanation for projects like the Milwaukee and Detroit streetcars). Even in places like Boston or Chicago, where buses are full of relatively-well off commuters, some people are scared to take the bus (even though the bus always has an operator in sight, so it's safer in some sense than the train where the operator is sequestered away). Other countries I've been to don't have this problem to the same extent (even Canada!), so I wonder what the right way is to counter this sort of American exceptionalism.

[Busy Bee]

^Ahoy!

You have run your vessel into the tippy-top of an iceberg named America's Entrenched and Enduring Social Problems.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Nashville clearly has failed to make their bus network attractive. This needs to be a first priority before opening a very expensive rail system.

Please explain how buses are going to be made to circulate between the Music City Central (the bus terminal up by the state capitol building), Lower Brodway, and SoBro, without a tunnel. Then explain how building a rail/bus tunnel costs exponentially, not incrementally more than a bus-only tunnel.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Please explain how buses are going to be made to circulate between the Music City Central (the bus terminal up by the state capitol building), Lower Brodway, and SoBro, without a tunnel. Then explain how building a rail/bus tunnel costs exponentially, not incrementally more than a bus-only tunnel.

If you need a tunnel, you will need rail, but the project will have underwhelming success if the supporting bus system is terrible.