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  #81  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2013, 7:59 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It's not a question of race. "Francophone" for the purposes of schools is fairly easy to define: does the child have a command of the language that is reasonably close to native speaker fluency (for his or her age)?

French first schools are for them. If they are true beginners with little or no prior knowledge of French, then immersion is for them.

As for fear of assimilation, well your indifference is similar to "rich people's problems". It's easy to be laissez-faire with such matters when your culture is the one sitting on top the steamroller.

As a white person I could say that race doesn't matter at all in North America because it's never affected me and if things we left as they are or were, I'd likely end up on top of the heap anyway.

Same goes for sexism and misogyny - from a male viewpoint.
Calice! Where is your data?
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  #82  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2013, 8:08 PM
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Calice! Where is your data?
Data? Vous n'êtes pas facile à suivre. Bordel de merde.
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  #83  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2013, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
??? When was the last time you were in France? I was there yesterday buddy.

You have no idea. The real minority... all immigrants in these places who are "les autres".

Have you been to suburban Paris before? Are you kidding me???

French language and culture aren't going anywhere. The fears are largely "insecurity". I could make more of an argument that irish culture in Quebec has been destroyed by the greater french culture in Quebec.

They are also making it hard for the remaining english to get by in Quebec... and my heritage is Quebecois. Also, why do stop signs say Arret only in Quebec. I see french words in english countries and english words on a regular basis in France. Its a joke. Bon fin de semaine? Who the fuck says that?

Don't be so ignorant and cliche in your view. This falsification of history is the exact reason why there are all these problems.
Oh... so now I see where this is coming from. Hard to follow in bits but the angle is quite clear.

No I wasn't in France yesterday but I was there not that long ago and have been there many times. In Paris, in the suburbs, in the "province". All over.

As for bonne fin de semaine, well I would ask you who the fuck refers to their milk as a "homo" anyway?

And BTW my heritage is Nova Scotian. Seriously. So there you go.
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  #84  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2013, 8:46 PM
RyeJay RyeJay is offline
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Not give up... but I think its an important language.
So learning English is less important than learning Mandarin?

You made the claim that learning Spanish is of a higher importance than learning French because Canada engages in more trade with Spanish-speaking countries. What significance do you allot to a country's internal political unity? Canada has one province that is comprised of a francophone majority, one province that has a large francophone minority; in fact, there is a francophone presence in every province, in every territory.

In my advocacy for a stronger French education in anglophone schools I have not at all desired for the exclusion of other languages. When I attended high school, students were also studying Spanish. Unfortunately, despite them being a large trading partner, my high school didn't offer any Chinese languages (because I'm somewhat certain that international trade isn't a key factor in deciding scholastic curriculum).

Math is the same in every country. Let that be the language of trade. Language needs to be mostly concerned with the cultures within the country.
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  #85  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2013, 1:38 AM
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So learning English is less important than learning Mandarin?

You made the claim that learning Spanish is of a higher importance than learning French because Canada engages in more trade with Spanish-speaking countries. What significance do you allot to a country's internal political unity? Canada has one province that is comprised of a francophone majority, one province that has a large francophone minority; in fact, there is a francophone presence in every province, in every territory.

In my advocacy for a stronger French education in anglophone schools I have not at all desired for the exclusion of other languages. When I attended high school, students were also studying Spanish. Unfortunately, despite them being a large trading partner, my high school didn't offer any Chinese languages (because I'm somewhat certain that international trade isn't a key factor in deciding scholastic curriculum).

Math is the same in every country. Let that be the language of trade. Language needs to be mostly concerned with the cultures within the country.
Very good points. And even so, Nova Scotia trades way more with Quebec than any place in the world that is Spanish-speaking.
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  #86  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2013, 2:04 AM
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I think it's pretty easy to make a practical case for French in NS, given the fact that it's the #2 most spoken language and the #1 most spoken language in some nearby areas. It's not like BC where you have to make a somewhat vaguer appeal to national history and culture.

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It's not a question of race. "Francophone" for the purposes of schools is fairly easy to define: does the child have a command of the language that is reasonably close to native speaker fluency (for his or her age)?
In my experience this was not quite the view of the French language school system in the Halifax area, which is operated by the Conseil Scolaire Acadien Provincial. I agree with you that in the end it should be about language skills, but I would not be surprised if there is still a double standard where "ethnically" Acadian parents (with suitable last name etc.) have an easier time enrolling kids who have worse French skills than other parents. That may even be an explicit part of the group's mandate. I'm not sure.
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  #87  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2013, 2:32 AM
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In my experience this was not quite the view of the French language school system in the Halifax area, which is operated by the Conseil Scolaire Acadien Provincial. I agree with you that in the end it should be about language skills, but I would not be surprised if there is still a double standard where "ethnically" Acadian parents (with suitable last name etc.) have an easier time enrolling kids who have worse French skills than other parents. That may even be an explicit part of the group's mandate. I'm not sure.
You are right. What I expressed was mostly my view more than anything else.

According to the Constitution you can send your kid to French first schools if a) you yourself are a native French-speaking Canadian citizen or b) you yourself went to French school.

It does not say anything about kids knowing French before entering school, although presumably most of the kids of parents who fit one of these two criteria would know at least some French.

But not all, and from what some people who teach tell me is that there are sometimes fights between ''ayant droit'' (those whose rights are grandfathered) and schools when the kids don't speak any French but the parents want them schooled in that language.

Sort of like: Jacques Thibault starts dating Margaret Turner in university. They always spoke English together and Jacques lives his life in English and his native French is lapsed but not totally forgotten. They get married and Margaret gets pregnant and pretty soon Timothy Thibault is born. Both parents speak to him in English since this is their natural language as a couple and family.

Then when Timmy is old enough for school they start thinking about where to send him: they want him to be bilingual so he can get a good job, and they also don't want Jacques' parents Maurice and Huguette to flip out that their grandson won't be learning French in school.

And so based on Jacques' status as an ayant droit they try to enrol Timmy at the local French school.

Sometimes this works out, sometimes it does not.
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  #88  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2013, 3:45 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Very good points. And even so, Nova Scotia trades way more with Quebec than any place in the world that is Spanish-speaking.
Excellent point. I think this is the krux of all the problems actually.

Provinces are not countries and are not the same even across the same province / language.

My issue with Canada is that we have arbitrary borders between provinces "confederation". I think this needs to be eliminated... we don't even have true mobility of people and goods / services in Canada. This leads to regions fighting instead of overall efficient social welfare.

NS or Quebec aren't the same across the province and many areas bleed into one another. All a provincial border does is disrupt economic and cultural activity.

Also, I think non-school language lessons should be provided to anybody in the opposite language across the country, for free.
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  #89  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2013, 7:16 PM
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I think non-school language lessons should be provided to anybody in the opposite language across the country, for free.
I wonder how this could be implemented, and at what costs?

I've given some thought to the idea of a post-secondary adult school system, where (unemployed) adults would find access to information about job availability, courses to review high school level academic skills (including French), and be rewarded with a cheque (which would be very modest, obviously).

Essentially, I've considered how we could improve our welfare system -- getting people out of their homes/off the streets, all while encouraging them to be productive via education.
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  #90  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2013, 7:21 PM
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You are right. What I expressed was mostly my view more than anything else.

According to the Constitution you can send your kid to French first schools if a) you yourself are a native French-speaking Canadian citizen or b) you yourself went to French school.

It does not say anything about kids knowing French before entering school, although presumably most of the kids of parents who fit one of these two criteria would know at least some French.

But not all, and from what some people who teach tell me is that there are sometimes fights between ''ayant droit'' (those whose rights are grandfathered) and schools when the kids don't speak any French but the parents want them schooled in that language.

Sort of like: Jacques Thibault starts dating Margaret Turner in university. They always spoke English together and Jacques lives his life in English and his native French is lapsed but not totally forgotten. They get married and Margaret gets pregnant and pretty soon Timothy Thibault is born. Both parents speak to him in English since this is their natural language as a couple and family.

Then when Timmy is old enough for school they start thinking about where to send him: they want him to be bilingual so he can get a good job, and they also don't want Jacques' parents Maurice and Huguette to flip out that their grandson won't be learning French in school.

And so based on Jacques' status as an ayant droit they try to enrol Timmy at the local French school.

Sometimes this works out, sometimes it does not.
And if, by any circumstance, Timmy was not to attend a francophone school -- he would still reach bilingual status via the anglophone school system, since French would begin in grade Primary and last until high school graduation .

Oh, to dream...
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  #91  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2013, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
. Bon fin de semaine? Who the fuck says
Nobody says that. We say "Bonne fin de semaine". At the very least get your bullshit straight !
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  #92  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2013, 8:21 PM
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Nobody says that. We say "Bonne fin de semaine". At the very least get your bullshit straight !
And still no answer as to why the sexual orientation of milk is important to English Canadians... (see post 83)
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  #93  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 2:02 AM
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And still no answer as to why the sexual orientation of milk is important to English Canadians... (see post 83)
I assume you're joking, but in case you're not, "homo" milk stands for "homogenized", nothing to do with sexual orientation, more to do with the chemical properties of oil and water.
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  #94  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 2:06 AM
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And if, by any circumstance, Timmy was not to attend a francophone school -- he would still reach bilingual status via the anglophone school system, since French would begin in grade Primary and last until high school graduation .

Oh, to dream...
If he enrolled in French Immersion and gave a shit about school he could certainly reach bilingual status by graduation. When I went through FI we didn't automatically receive official bilingual status, although we were well-prepared to take the exam if we wanted to. Most of my teachers seemed to think official status wasn't actually that important, although it's possible that they were downplaying its importance because my high school was the kind of place where a lot of students couldn't necessarily afford to take the exam.
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  #95  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 2:40 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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I assume you're joking, but in case you're not, "homo" milk stands for "homogenized", nothing to do with sexual orientation, more to do with the chemical properties of oil and water.
Exactly. It is a word in french too, homogénéisé... from latin roots I assume.

I don't remember it being used in quebec.

Sorry I got the masc / fem mixed up for "bonne fin de semaine"... everybody else in the world says bon weekend
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  #96  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
Exactly. It is a word in french too, homogénéisé... from latin roots I assume.

I don't remember it being used in quebec.

Sorry I got the masc / fem mixed up for "bonne fin de semaine"... everybody else in the world says bon weekend
We all know that.

Just like everyone in the world says whole milk instead of "homo" milk (Canadian).

Or just as almost everyone says "pepper" (for the vegetable) except for Australians who call it "capsicum".

Same goes for rockmelon (cantaloupe).
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  #97  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 9:35 PM
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If he enrolled in French Immersion and gave a shit about school he could certainly reach bilingual status by graduation.
Yes, I agree. FI isn't available in all public schools though.

As for the grade P-12, non-French Immersion curriculum I've been discussing throughout this thread, it would be my hope that a majority of anglophone students would become officially bilingual. High school diplomoas, essentially, could become the new bilingual certification proof.

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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
When I went through FI we didn't automatically receive official bilingual status, although we were well-prepared to take the exam if we wanted to. Most of my teachers seemed to think official status wasn't actually that important, although it's possible that they were downplaying its importance because my high school was the kind of place where a lot of students couldn't necessarily afford to take the exam.
Many of the students in the high schools I attended were from lower-income families, but from what I can recall, our teachers still stressed the important of being certified, especially if we wanted the option of working in Quebec, Ontario, New Brunswick, or in other French-speaking countries.

I believe funding assistance programmes were available.
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  #98  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 11:31 PM
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Yes, I agree. FI isn't available in all public schools though.
In Halifax, if the local school does not offer FI, then students are allowed to attend the closest one that does. Busing is provided. I'm not sure how it works outside of the HRM.
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  #99  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 11:35 PM
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Many of the students in the high schools I attended were from lower-income families, but from what I can recall, our teachers still stressed the important of being certified, especially if we wanted the option of working in Quebec, Ontario, New Brunswick, or in other French-speaking countries.

I believe funding assistance programmes were available.
Being "certified" bilingual is probably more relevant in NB, because of the "legalness" of the province's bilingualism. Since NS isn't "officially" bilingual, it is less important for individuals to be "officially" bilingual - simply being able to speak both French and English fluently is the most that an employer seeking bilingual staff is likely to want or expect (gov't jobs might be a different story). For some reason I am assuming that you went to high school in NB... is that right? Or was it Truro?
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  #100  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2013, 9:21 AM
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Being "certified" bilingual is probably more relevant in NB, because of the "legalness" of the province's bilingualism. Since NS isn't "officially" bilingual, it is less important for individuals to be "officially" bilingual - simply being able to speak both French and English fluently is the most that an employer seeking bilingual staff is likely to want or expect (gov't jobs might be a different story). For some reason I am assuming that you went to high school in NB... is that right? Or was it Truro?
I began high school in Truro and I finished in Moncton.
I found an equal level of importance given to French from teachers at both Cobequid Educational Centre and Moncton High School.

I'm unsure if CEC's enthusiasm is in any part due to Truro's Acadian population, which is larger than most other municipalities in Nova Scotia. The only difference I found at MHS was that when anglophone students didn't take French (since they aren't required to until grade 12) there was this sense of guilt that was asserted. Teachers would outright ask why?
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