Violent Crime in Winnipeg..

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Oh, I should have caught this earlier. N + L has one of the highest per capita GDP numbers in the country.

Newfoundland has historically been the poorest province in Canada, by far, with very low rates of crime. GDP has surged only very recently, with rather minimal effect on the average person (e.g. unemployment remains staggeringly high), because of increased offshore oil production combined with a significant population decline.

It's interesting that the lowest crime rates among the cities in Trueviking's list are largely found in economically depressed industrial towns in Quebec -- Trois-Rivières, Saguenay, and Sherbrooke.

[vid]

Québec's industrial towns have extremely small minority populations, as do Newfoundlands, but in addition to being homogeneous populations, Newfoundland's small coastal communities are also tight knit. The kind of poverty they experience in Quebec's smaller cities and in almost all of Newfoundland is quite different from the squalor and discrimination experienced by many of the people living in poor neighbourhoods in cities like Thunder Bay, Winnipeg and Edmonton.

To say "because there is no crime in impoverished parts of Newfoundland, finding solutions to poverty will do nothing to lower crime rates" is irresponsible. An admittance that you are unable or unwilling to do anything about the poverty and crime problems in our cities. Not all poverty is the same and not all people are affected by it the same way.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by vid

To say "because there is no crime in impoverished parts of Newfoundland, finding solutions to poverty will do nothing to lower crime rates" is irresponsible. An admittance that you are unable or unwilling to do anything about the poverty and crime problems in our cities. Not all poverty is the same and not all people are affected by it the same way.

Well, one "solution to poverty" that I suggested -- simply giving large amounts of money to criminals -- was generally agreed (see above) to be unlikely to affect crime rates. Other "solutions to poverty" seem to me to come more out of a moral reform of the criminal class itself, instilling in it the same values that seem to (generally) shield the people of Trois-Rivières or the upper middle class suburbs of Winnipeg from the temptation to behave antisocially. If that were possible, it would affect crime rates, but it is not essentially an attack on poverty as such, but rather an attack on the thing that is the common cause of both poverty (of the sort you speak) and criminality, namely the moral psychology of the underclass.

[ScrappyPeg]

It seems this 'moral psychology' of the underclasses (who commit crimes) in Winnipeg is accepted and justified.

[DowntownWpg]

I think that Andy6 makes a very interesting point re: the moral psychology of the underclass. Given, then, that a substantial portion of Winnipeggers suffer from a moral deficit, I have some thoughts for short and long term approaches.

For the short-term, I don't see why having more police officers patrolling the streets and taking an 'in your face' approach to gangs and greatly patrolling certain areas of this city is a problem. If you're not breaking the law, why should it be a problem? Maybe some people are concerned that such an 'in your face' approach would anger the criminals and create more criminals by fostering an anti-cop attitude. But, I look at the notable decreases in auto theft that corresponds with an 'in your face' approach towards auto thieves, and it seems to be working. Hardened criminals don't need a hug, they need to be kept in-check.

Long-term approaches are indeed separate policy items all together. I personally think that we already have a social program aligned with every possible human failing. While I'm not advocating to scrap said programs, as they probably all have some success stories, I don't think that the social work approach works for everyone. Some will also play the system of social programs to remain on parole and be committing crimes when not in their sessions. There are many who seem to be in-and-out of jail their entire life, and unfortunately not possible to rehabilitate. Remember, one element of prison is deterrence.

Though, to avoid a continued build-up of those anti-social, morally bankrupt individuals, I believe that Child & Family Services needs to be taking more children away from their parents. Such as if their parents are drug addicts, or are in-and-out of prison, or are failing to provide the basic needs to the children, or have been well documented to be physically and/or verbally abusive to their kids.


Let me tell you about something that disturbed me greatly, and got me thinking more about this...

A year or two ago, I was on the second floor of City Place and looked down to the main level when I heard a woman screaming profanities at someone. What I saw was a young mother who was pushing a baby in a stroller and also had a toddler who was no older than four years old following her. The toddler was trying hard to keep up with his mother, but his small legs and childhood curiosity meant he wasn't keeping up.

Did the mother wait, or take his hand? No... she thought the better thing to do was to turn around every 20 seconds, and scream at him "move it you little shit!" and "hurry the fuck up!," etc.

It was very disturbing... luckily a security guard intervened, but of course the mother thought it best to direct her screaming and profanities at the security guard.

Anyway, I'm a bit of a Freudian, though not entirely. I believe that there is both nature and nurture elements that builds our personality. Because of that I wonder about that poor little boy and his potential future. I'm of the opinion that he would be better off in a state run residential setting (with the religious groups kept far, far away). While not ideal, it would still be much better than the upbringing he is in store for with that mother.


Otherwise, his future will probably unfold like this...

When he's in his teens, he'll probably be wearing black hoodies, a high school drop out, dealing drugs at Portage Place and trying to look the part that 'I'm angry and scary so stay the fuck away.' When he's in his 20's, he'll be mugging people for fun and profit, with scars on his face from a knife fight, in a street gang, and overseeing the prostitution of his sister and his pregnant girlfriend on Aitkins Street. He'll be in-and-out of jail throughout his 20's and 30's. When he's in his 40's he'll look like he's in his 60's. He'll be a bum living on the street, slowly killing himself with substance abuse and making suburbanites think twice about spending leisure time downtown due to his aggressive panhandling and the smell trailing him as he soiled his own pants.

Unfortunately, this story happens all to often in our city.

Hopefully this isn't the future for that kid, but much more likely than if he had grown up in a stable and rational setting.

While government administered child care and upbringing isn't ideal, I think the kids would have a much better chance at a future if they are in such a safer setting than living with such a parent. I understand that CFS has space issues and not enough foster families. Maybe they need to build a whole compound to house the kids in residence, and if it raises our taxes, so be it!

While we need to work at addressing poverty, obviously that is easier said than done. Can anyone name any jurisdiction on this planet that has successfully eliminated poverty? We obviously need to work at dealing with the criminals and their moral deficits, for we can't wait for a quick fix to the poverty problem. As for poverty, lets keep building our economy and get jobs created. Lets have a great and engaging education system. But, lets also deal with the thugs on the streets today, and remove kids in unsafe households to try and reduce the burden of criminality in the future.

[Only The Lonely..]

I'd have to agree with DowntownWpg's thoughts on the subject..

Personally, I wish the Canadian justice system would borrow a page from California's and institute a three strike policy.

I.e.) Mandatory life sentences to persons who have been convicted of a serious criminal offence on three or more seperate occasions.

The problem with this is that although Canada's population has grown steadily over the last 30 years, our penal infrastructure hasn't.

There probably hasn't been a new jail built in Manitoba since the Remand Centre opened some 25 years ago.

Today our prisons are overcrowded, and so we have a revolving door of justice in this country.

And don't even get me started on the 'if only we had more social programs and smellfare everything would be different' argument.

If you want to really send a strong message, instead of restoring York Factory into a heritage piece for tourists they should convert the whole place into an 'Alcatraz' of the North.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by Only The Lonely..

If you want to really send a strong message, instead of restoring York Factory into a heritage piece for tourists they should convert the whole place into an 'Alcatraz' of the North.

I was thinking a little further up the coast.

How are you going to fix generations of people brought up without social skills, parenting skills or values and morals? A line needs to be drawn for where it ends, and if the children are allowed to grow up in the broken households, or as the children of gangsters receiving their morals and social skills, the cycle will continue.

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by Kinguni

I was thinking a little further up the coast.

How are you going to fix generations of people brought up without social skills, parenting skills or values and morals? A line needs to be drawn for where it ends, and if the children are allowed to grow up in the broken households, or as the children of gangsters receiving their morals and social skills, the cycle will continue.

Just curious... How do these people that grew up "without social skills, parenting skills or values and morals" learn to walk and talk and increasingly kill like LA gangsters?

TV? Movies?

Could they also have learned from The Brady Bunch?

I grow mighty weary of excuses. We keep empowering these people.

[grumpy old man]

I understand there are three new(ish) penal institutions in Manitoba. Both Brandon and PlaP are building new. How recent is Milner Ridge?

That said I think a large new prison in Leaf Rapids or Lynn Lake are perfectly fine places for a prison.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

Just curious... How do these people that grew up "without social skills, parenting skills or values and morals" learn to walk and talk and increasingly kill like LA gangsters?

From their peers silly! The people that care about them, that treat them like family, that give them a sense of belonging and supply them with and show them how to get all the nice things that a life of crime provides.

[grumpy old man]

Too bad they didn't embrace the good things in people rather than the gangsta lifestyle. People have choices to make. Be nice if they choose good over evil eh?

[Kinguni]

No, they choose easy. They also choose what their friends are doing.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Well, one "solution to poverty" that I suggested -- simply giving large amounts of money to criminals -- was generally agreed (see above) to be unlikely to affect crime rates.

That's because throwing money at problems doesn't do fuck all to solve them.

Originally Posted by Andy6

Other "solutions to poverty" seem to me to come more out of a moral reform of the criminal class itself, instilling in it the same values that seem to (generally) shield the people of Trois-Rivières or the upper middle class suburbs of Winnipeg from the temptation to behave antisocially. If that were possible, it would affect crime rates, but it is not essentially an attack on poverty as such, but rather an attack on the thing that is the common cause of both poverty (of the sort you speak) and criminality, namely the moral psychology of the underclass.

Well fuck then, it's impossible and I guess the injuns are flawed!
Let's all move to Chibougamou!

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Originally Posted by Kinguni

How are you going to fix generations of people brought up without social skills, parenting skills or values and morals?

Obviously, we are going to do this by building bigger jails and giving them all life sentences. We might even bring back the death penalty! Since human beings are unable to change or help others, we might as well just kill every one of them that wrongs us. We'll call it "The Final Solution" and I predict that after 5 years of this, we will cut crime in half!

After all, we always choose what is perceived to be the easiest. It's a natural human trait.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

I understand there are three new(ish) penal institutions in Manitoba. Both Brandon and PlaP are building new. How recent is Milner Ridge?

That said I think a large new prison in Leaf Rapids or Lynn Lake are perfectly fine places for a prison.

lynn lake could sure use the jobs hell they could build it 20 miles west of town at the other abandoned mine site bam the town benifits with jobs and its still isolated

[bomberguy]

We need a Batman in this city.

Or... Vigilante Justice. Who's with me?

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

I understand there are three new(ish) penal institutions in Manitoba. Both Brandon and PlaP are building new. How recent is Milner Ridge?

That said I think a large new prison in Leaf Rapids or Lynn Lake are perfectly fine places for a prison.

An even better idea...

Build a prison on a small island in the north half of Lake Winnipeg. Situate it 10-20 km from shore and in the winter months circle the island with icebreakers making a cold moat for escapees to swim through.

I think there are a couple such islands close to Grand Rapids that should work.

[vid]

Yes, and once all the criminals are on that island crime will never happen again. Or am I missing something?

[ScrappyPeg]

Won't there always be a certain level of poverty and/or crime in any city?

I met a guy who fell on some hard times - couldn't work because of his health and ended up on welfare. He was shocked, grateful and thankful that when he first ended up on the streets that he could get a free meal at any of the number of soup kitchens in this city. He also couldn't believe that he could stay for free at one of the homeless shelters. He was also extremely thankful that welfare was there to help him when he needed it.

Then there's all those other people who complain and demand more.

I really do believe it is all in the attitude that is encouraged - an attitude of entitlement.

[vid]

Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg

Won't there always be a certain level of poverty and/or crime in any city?

Yes. And we should be like Scandinavia and get that level down below 2%.

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by vid

Yes, and once all the criminals are on that island crime will never happen again. Or am I missing something?

Isn't it obvious? If A leads to B, then by removing A, you remove B.