Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think the NHL is likely to expand either.

What I was saying is that team relocations in North American pro sports aren't always something that people see coming ahead of time.

Exactly that. In Winnipeg the buzz for several years was that the Coyotes were the team we were getting. The ownership group admitted that in 2010 they had set up the seats for the press conference announcing the purchase of the Coyotes only to have it fall through when, IIRC, Glendale agreed to pour even more money into the team. No one was really talking much about Atlanta... they got mentioned occasionally but they didn't become the focus until it was official.

It's hard to fathom a scenario where all NHL teams rest on stable ground for the next 10 years. If one of them falters, the Quebec group steps up as an easy plug-and-play situation. Granted it would be easier if the C$ was a little higher, but I'm sure the NHL has Quebec on speed dial should the need arise again.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

If one of them falters, the Quebec group steps up as an easy plug-and-play situation. Granted it would be easier if the C$ was a little higher, but I'm sure the NHL has Quebec on speed dial should the need arise again.

Depends on which team falters. If it's Western team I imagine Houston is called first; if it's an Eastern team perhaps Quebec is called first, but when Winnipeg were admitted the CAD was at parity with the USD. Quebec doesn't benefit at all from a dollar at $0.79.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Depends on which team falters. If it's Western team I imagine Houston is called first; if it's an Eastern team perhaps Quebec is called first, but when Winnipeg were admitted the CAD was at parity with the USD. Quebec doesn't benefit at all from a dollar at $0.79.

I think you dramatically overestimate the importance of geographic location, but I do agree that the value of the C$ is a key factor.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by elly63

Proof?

We've been through this before. It's all over the article you posted. If you don't see it that doesn't mean it isn't there. The obvious choices are they produced a rendering, name and, "real money on economic an impact study " and presented those to council. First, all of those are nominal expenses compared to the cost of a stadium. "Real" is overkill. Second, the only purpose to present concept renderings, team names and an impact study to council is to swoon them over. You only need planning approvals if you're self financing. You don't need to do a whole stick about the investment paying for itself.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think you dramatically overestimate the importance of geographic location, but I do agree that the value of the C$ is a key factor.

I don't really think so. The conferences are still unbalanced and a Western team moving to the East imbalances it further. Seattle coming in will equal them, and that will be good, and they should stay that way for the forseeable future. Teams like Detroit and Columbus begged to be moved to the East in the last lockout and were given assurances they would remain in the east, meaning that a team moving to Quebec from the West doesn't automatically mean that one of DET/CBJ is simply moved back over to equal things out.

I know there was some discussion a few years ago on this point but: would Quebec fans be willing to support a team if they had to play the first few years in the Western Conference, playing half their season in the Mountain & Pacific time zones?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I don't really think so. The conferences are still unbalanced and a Western team moving to the East imbalances it further. Seattle coming in will equal them, and that will be good, and they should stay that way for the forseeable future. Teams like Detroit and Columbus begged to be moved to the East in the last lockout and were given assurances they would remain in the east, meaning that a team moving to Quebec from the West doesn't automatically mean that one of DET/CBJ is simply moved back over to equal things out.

I know there was some discussion a few years ago on this point but: would Quebec fans be willing to support a team if they had to play the first few years in the Western Conference, playing half their season in the Mountain & Pacific time zones?

Balanced conferences are a nice plus for the players and fans but that's about it. There will always be a few teams that get the short end of the stick when it comes to travel, start times, etc. Teams get shifted around and you can bet the NHL wouldn't hesitate to do it again to make things work.

I'm sure the NHL would love to have a perfectly even geographic footprint but you don't always get what you want... they'll make it work in spite of that. If the NHL finds itself with a team that is suddenly orphaned the way Atlanta was, you can bet that balancing considerations will suddenly fall off the radar. If there is ever a time where fans will happily oblige late start times, it's during the first couple of seasons when the full honeymoon phase is on.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Balanced conferences are a nice plus for the players and fans but that's about it. There will always be a few teams that get the short end of the stick when it comes to travel, start times, etc. Teams get shifted around and you can bet the NHL wouldn't hesitate to do it again to make things work.

In a league driven by parity I'm sure owners and GMs want equal chances of making the playoffs - unbalanced conferences don't provide true parity for playoff positions. I'm not saying it's the end-all be-all but it's a priority, just like how TV markets and market growth potential are priorities.

[esquire]

^ Yeah, I'm not saying balanced divisions aren't a priority, I'm just saying they're well down the list and certainly not a factor that's really going to drive major decisions like where a franchise in distress gets to relocate.

[elly63]

Could a public-private partnership secure a CFL stadium?
JOSH HEALEY The Chronicle Herald January 4, 2018

[elly63]

Stadium will make or break Halifax’s CFL bid
FRANCIS CAMPBELL The Chronicle Herald January 5, 2018

[TheGreatestX]

Top Canadian Arenas by Concert Tickets Sold:

1. 766,322 Air Canada Centre Toronto
2. 540,524 Bell Centre Montreal
3. 489,246 Rogers Arena Vancouver
4. 256,850 Rogers Place Edmonton
5. 245,148 Centre Vidéotron Quebec City
6. 177,410 Canadian Tire Centre Ottawa
7. 163,341 FirstOntario Centre Hamilton
8. 155,582 Bell MTS Place Winnipeg
9. 122,399 Budweiser Gardens London
10. 99,807 SaskTel Centre Saskatoon
11. 92,885 Abbotsford Centre Abbotsford
12. 80,326 Scotiabank Saddledome Calgary

https://www.pollstar.com/Chart/2018/...Venues_628.pdf

[speedog]

Originally Posted by TheGreatestX

Top Canadian Arenas by Concert Tickets Sold:

1. 766,322 Air Canada Centre Toronto
2. 540,524 Bell Centre Montreal
3. 489,246 Rogers Arena Vancouver
4. 256,850 Rogers Place Edmonton
5. 245,148 Centre Vidéotron Quebec City
6. 177,410 Canadian Tire Centre Ottawa
7. 163,341 FirstOntario Centre Hamilton
8. 155,582 Bell MTS Place Winnipeg
9. 122,399 Budweiser Gardens London
10. 99,807 SaskTel Centre Saskatoon
11. 92,885 Abbotsford Centre Abbotsford
12. 80,326 Scotiabank Saddledome Calgary

https://www.pollstar.com/Chart/2018/...Venues_628.pdf

Saddledome rocks?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by speedog

Saddledome rocks?

Is there a competing venue for concerts in Calgary siphoning off business?

In Moncton, the current coliseum is plagued by a low slanted ceiling, lousy acoustics and poor HVAC, and, while it formerly attracted lots of good quality concerts, has been mostly dormant as a performance venue for the last decade.

This is because of competition from the 2,500 seat Molson Canadian Centre at Casino NB. While the Molson Centre is only a little more than a third the size of the coliseum, many acts have been appearing here instead just because of the superiority of the venue.

I expect with the opening of the new 8,800 seat downtown events centre in Moncton this summer that many big name acts will migrate back to an arena style venue. The new downtown arena will be first rate........

[Berklon]

Pretty impressive for ACC to be #11 worldwide, especially when the arena is booked up for Leafs, Raptors and Rock games. I think the only arenas higher than them with these restrictions are MSG and Barclays Center.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Yeah, I'm not saying balanced divisions aren't a priority, I'm just saying they're well down the list and certainly not a factor that's really going to drive major decisions like where a franchise in distress gets to relocate.

The overwhelmingly dominant factor is the league's desire to have a full footprint of major U.S. markets in order to finally be able to sell hockey as a "real" sport to the bulk of U.S. fans and media that are still largely barely aware of it.

Allowing that they won't try Atlanta again, the main "missing" cities are Seattle and Houston. We will likely see Arizona move to Houston and an expansion team will likely be going to Seattle. That will also balance the divisions. Quebec could have an outside chance of landing a failing eastern team in some sort of exigent circumstance but I wouldn't count on it.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Andy6

We will likely see Arizona move to Houston and an expansion team will likely be going to Seattle.

There's no reason why the league can't have both Arizona and Houston. I think a lot of people underestimate just how large the Phoenix metro area is.

A bit off topic, but the NHL is just now getting to the point where it is beginning to receive incoming talent from these areas (Phoenix) so it would be unwise to move on now of all times. Franchises that have been in their current locations a bit longer (Dallas, for example) are producing more and more high level hockey players with each passing age group. Bishop signed in Dallas partly because he played junior hockey in Texas.

This is long something I've mentioned before, but the % that Canadians make up in the NHL has been declining pretty steadily over the past few decades. Because Americans tend to have fairly similar surnames to Canadians (relative to Europeans, anyway) the change is a bit more difficult to pick up on at first blush. There will eventually be a time when Canadians are no longer dominant in the league, although it'll take longer to change that mindset amongst fans.

This season there has been 10 players born in California, two in Arizona, five in Texas, six Floridians, three from the Carolinas...and these numbers will only increase in the future if youth participation rates are anything to go by.

tl;dr the NHL is beginning to realize the upsides of players born and developed in the 90s expansion areas, so moving a team like Arizona would be a poor business decision.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Is there a competing venue for concerts in Calgary siphoning off business?

Same question for every other city. In Ottawa, we also have Lansdowne with the Civic Centre (10,000) and TD Place (24,000), though I don't think outdoor stadiums (TD Place) offer that much competition due to unpredictable weather and, well, winter.

[esquire]

^ Also, the more sports teams there are taking up dates and entertainment dollars, the worse that concert attendance seems to be. The Saddledome has 3 sports tenants who no doubt have an impact on concert scheduling... I know at MTS Centre concert attendance was much higher when there was only the AHL to work around. Now there is a NHL and AHL team soaking up dates and dollars.

Obviously the ACC is different because even with 3 teams in the building, there is still enough concert demand in a market of many millions to keep the place packed night after night.

[J.OT13]

So considering the CTC only has the Sens, we're not doing so good. Big factor of course is that that Ottawa is in between Toronto and Montreal, which makes for some heavy competition. The crappy suburban location doesn't help either.

[king10]

Isnt the issue with the saddedome not a competing venue in town but acts skipping the city all together due to terrible accoustics at the saddledome. Also the roof cant support the rigging requirements of modern day concerts. I know even Hamilton has some rigging issues with its roof and concerts coming in.