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  #961  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2018, 4:40 AM
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Originally Posted by flar View Post
JP is an interesting case. He has a lot of insight, clearly he is thoughtful and pursues what he believes to be truth. I agree with many of his arguments, individually, as great insights into certain aspects of humanity. A lot of it is dark, willing to take things far and raw, like Nietzsche, but still he still holds a moral view as well (morality also being a necessity for civilization). His overall view is a little more pessimistic than mine, and because of that I have much less enthusiasm for religion than JP.

He is associated with the alt right for several reasons. Ultimately he is a functionalist, arguing that many things are the way they are because that's what works. This is an inherently conservative way of looking at things. He is trying to be provocative, obviously, which makes him interesting, and to be provocative in an academic setting, you have hit from the right. He looks at human beings from a naturalist perspective, his view of human nature understands that we are animals. There is a lot of ugliness and injustice in nature. Part of this is an evolutionary view of humanity, in which inequality is not only built-in, but a driving force of human progress. This verges on an Ayn Rand-like celebration of those who are naturally more full of life, talent, energy and ambition (I would bet a lot of JP's appeal shares motivations with Objectivism). From this, it follows that keeping those people down is a bad thing, as any attempt to make things equal impinges on and restricts someone else from reaching their potential. The flip side of the naturalist way of thinking is that there are archetypes that are rooted in the realities of human existence, which are manifest in culture. This too, can be taken as an apology for traditional ways of thinking, morality, etc (i.e. tinged with religion and therefore to the "right").

Because he leans to these ways of looking at things, he is to the right of mainstream thinking of the university-educated class. Because it's 2018, everything is ridiculously exaggerated, so that makes JP alt-right.

Even though I think he takes some things too far, as often happens when you probe into some aspect of truth, JP is a necessary thinker for today. His criticism of the radical-left is an example of his monolithic, verging on one-dimensional thinking, but is essentially correct. He has a real insight into the totalitarian tendencies of leftist thinking. Many legitimate ways of thinking are immediately labeled as some -ism and considered wrong just because it's considered wrong. In many cases the things considered wrong are rooted in aspects of human nature, so in order to "correct" them, you have to go against nature, which means forcing people to do something other than what they would have, which is totalitarian if you take it far enough. I think JP realizes that if you erase all the "currently undesirable" aspects of human nature, you destroy some of the beauty too, and risk these aspects bubbling up in even less desirable ways. He sees that the radical leftist way of looking at things is rooted in resentment (and it really is -- check out Neitzsche's idea of ressentiment, which has always fascinated me).

Anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm praising JP too much, because I disagree with him on a lot of things, and probably overall. I'm just saying even if you disagree with him, don't just write him off, because he has some interesting things to say, and I think he is more honest in his thinking than most people who attain his level of influence. He make some arguments that need to be reckoned with if you are serious about understanding people.
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  #962  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2018, 8:21 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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I was reading this and it and showed it to coworkers on how entitled women are from dating and how not self-aware they are:

https://www.thestar.com/life/2018/07...-just-bad.html

I had quite big arguments about the good aspects of being a woman (not beeing seen as s child predator for once). The debate has gotten so polarized that people left work angry today.

How do you deal with such situations where you try to be the middle-man between extremes?
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  #963  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2018, 8:47 PM
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It's not proof that women are universally entitled or unaware though. It's just an example of one woman's account of one date. It's better to focus on the assumptions and behaviour rather than accuse any groups of anything. That article makes both parties sound a bit obnoxious.

I agree that there are lots of double standards both ways. People generally care about the stuff that bugs them and ignore everything else, and there hasn't been much effective communication from men on issues that affect them (partly because they are easily demonized and don't want to get mistaken for misogynists). Feminists aren't going to spend lots of political capital arguing for people to split the bill on dates. They'll move on to the next issue that is more important to them.

As a tangent, this reminds me of a same sex female couple I know who raised a son. They had to put up with a lot of anti-gay and misogynist discrimination. But they said they were still surprised by the male-specific disadvantages their son had to cope with as he got older. Before him, they were not directly impacted and so didn't know these things existed.
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  #964  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2018, 6:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
I was reading this and it and showed it to coworkers on how entitled women are from dating and how not self-aware they are:

https://www.thestar.com/life/2018/07...-just-bad.html

I had quite big arguments about the good aspects of being a woman (not beeing seen as s child predator for once). The debate has gotten so polarized that people left work angry today.

How do you deal with such situations where you try to be the middle-man between extremes?
I try not to be the middle-man between extremes between coworkers. Why did you think opening up a debate on gender roles and expectations among your coworkers was a good idea?
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  #965  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2018, 11:33 AM
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Jordan Peterson is a huge putz - can't fucking stand the guy, and oh, by the way, YouTube needs to fix their fucking algorithm because I'm tired of being suggested his shitty videos - but the way the left has been reacting to him is shameful. It really exposes how unequpped they are in handling anything in the social sphere. This is how we fucking got Trump and Doug Ford for chrissakes.

Look at this thread, for example. Peterson's a misogynist, really? He really hates women dies he? On what fucking basis? Because he's an educated trad-con wrapped in a bad reading of evolutionary psychology? That's hating women now, is it? A more apt term from a less intellectually-disingenuous age would be 'male chauvinist' and even the that's a stretch if you actually look at what he says.

The left has taken a powerful word - misogyny - and effectively rendered it meaningless. These days, peeing standing up is misogynist. Little wonder young men are starting to tune you out, which is a shame because the left would otherwise have an important role to play on the economic side of things, you know, the sphere of modern liberal life that actually might redress some of the inequalities and inequities in our society that everyone's so horrified about.
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  #966  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 12:55 PM
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I try not to be the middle-man between extremes between coworkers. Why did you think opening up a debate on gender roles and expectations among your coworkers was a good idea?
I like to pretend that people are reasonable and think with facts.
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  #967  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2018, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
I was reading this and it and showed it to coworkers on how entitled women are from dating and how not self-aware they are:

https://www.thestar.com/life/2018/07...-just-bad.html

I had quite big arguments about the good aspects of being a woman (not beeing seen as s child predator for once). The debate has gotten so polarized that people left work angry today.

How do you deal with such situations where you try to be the middle-man between extremes?
Funny, I've had the opposite experience with pretty much all my dates - feeling generous and old fashioned, I'd politely offer to pay for both our meals, but would always get a reaction like "are you stuck in 1950? why should you have to pay for my meal?"

Had I dated her, then for once, my approach, instead of irritating my dates with its with obvious sexist undertones, would have rubbed her the right way.
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  #968  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 12:49 AM
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Re Paying the bill

That's a great test of a woman's character (assuming you both earn a similar salary, of course):

*If she lets you pay without comment, you might be in trouble. Might.
*If she pipes up and offers to pay half or some pro rata amount, super.
*If she accuses you of being a sexist, or makes you feel silly for offering, run like hell and don't look back.
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  #969  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
Re Paying the bill

That's a great test of a woman's character (assuming you both earn a similar salary, of course):

*If she lets you pay without comment, you might be in trouble. Might.
*If she pipes up and offers to pay half or some pro rata amount, super.
*If she accuses you of being a sexist, or makes you feel silly for offering, run like hell and don't look back.
If the woman offers to pay the entire bill that would be best of all.
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  #970  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 1:54 AM
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If we successfully established a socialist workers utopia there would be no bill to pay!
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  #971  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 3:27 AM
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If we successfully established a socialist workers utopia there would be no bill to pay!
posted this in the calgary section a while back.. but apparently it bears repeating here

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  #972  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 3:47 AM
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Capitalism requires poverty and inequality to exist or it cannot function.
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  #973  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 4:40 AM
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An authoritarian system makes everyone pay.
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  #974  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 4:47 AM
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Capitalism requires poverty and inequality to exist or it cannot function.
That's not true, of course, but it's certainly the kind of talking point that gets "woke" heads nodding.
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  #975  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 4:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
I was reading this and it and showed it to coworkers on how entitled women are from dating and how not self-aware they are:

https://www.thestar.com/life/2018/07...-just-bad.html

I had quite big arguments about the good aspects of being a woman (not beeing seen as s child predator for once). The debate has gotten so polarized that people left work angry today.

How do you deal with such situations where you try to be the middle-man between extremes?
Your post is a perfect example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Unless you're totally taking the piss out of someone who would read the story at your link containing, for example, this...

Quote:
We hugged, and I assumed we’d be going to get dinner, but he said he had to clean his place before we left and asked me to hang out while he tidied up. I sat there for twenty minutes. It was weird but, once again, I tried to be chill about it.
...and come to the insane conclusion that it's the woman here who is "entitled" and "not self-aware." Because any man who would go on a date like the one described in that story, and then at the end proceed to ask the woman up to his apartment afterward, is practically the clinical definition of "entitled" and "oblivious."

This kind of guy, in other words.

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  #976  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 5:21 AM
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I think the story was just the concoction of that woman’s imagination run amok. Just indiscriminately lashing out at imaginary men through pen and paper.
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  #977  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 5:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Corndogger View Post
If the woman offers to pay the entire bill that would be best of all.
Funny how that would never happen
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  #978  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 11:30 AM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Your post is a perfect example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Unless you're totally taking the piss out of someone who would read the story at your link containing, for example, this...


...and come to the insane conclusion that it's the woman here who is "entitled" and "not self-aware." Because any man who would go on a date like the one described in that story, and then at the end proceed to ask the woman up to his apartment afterward, is practically the clinical definition of "entitled" and "oblivious."

This kind of guy, in other words.
I'm not straight so I'm independant in this kind of view. You didn't read me well at all, and you actually stereotyped even more.

In fact it's the social construct that bothered me to no end in the story as much as to what should happen on a date. People are awkward in general and to say such minor things is a terrible date, well, is extreme.
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  #979  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 4:49 PM
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Popping a zit while on a date is not smart however this person is too harsh on the othsr. High expectations/ expecting a "finished product" when in reality everyone is growing in different ways. You want someone who has the potential to BECOME what your ideal is (to a limit) and build yourself up in a way so that you may meet your potential partner's ideal (again to a limit).

People aren't static and can change, little by little over time. Both women AND men are more entitled, to be frank it ruins their chances at happiness and great relationships and it pisses me off because I can't find anyone around my age that isn't very entitled in that way.

Last edited by 333609543; Jul 24, 2018 at 4:49 PM. Reason: seperated some text
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  #980  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2018, 5:31 PM
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Hilarious. Did SSP suddenly get sucked through a vortex into an alternate dimension?

Standard procedure in most human societies and even some other species is to try to put your best foot forward when attempting to mate. You know, in order to, uh, attract someone. Not repel them.

The guy in that story wasn't awkward; he was the very definition of entitled. No thought whatsoever--indeed, it was aggressive disdain--for what kind of impression he might make or how his date might feel.

- Forced her to wait while he "cleaned" his apartment. Who the hell does this on a first date?
- Didn't offer to pick up the bill. You should at least offer, if only to appear to have a generous bone in your body. Your date can always insist on splitting the bill after you've offered to pay. My understanding is that alternating picking up the bill is standard procedure in modern courtship. Isn't it?
- Obsessed over a pimple in a disgusting way. Again: what the hell?
- After all that, with nary a concern for how he'd come across or how she'd responded, he latched onto her hand, asked her to come up to his apartment and tried to kiss her.

The guy was an entitled prick. He was a jackass who clearly thought he was good-looking enough to snag whatever woman he wanted. And yet people in this thread think it was the woman who was entitled? Or that she'd made up the story?

Honestly, I'm flummoxed: Is there a millennial mentality happening here that I'm of touch with as a GenXer? These responses read like they're coming from somewhere on the autism spectrum. Or the alt-righty "incel" fever swamp.
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