Which idea do you like more?: province of Northern Ont or NW Ont joining Man.?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

If anything, Manitoba should be relinquishing some of it's vast territory not absorbing more. We can't afford to service what we have.

Agreed. Assuming that Manitoba Hydro got to keep its northern dams, ceding everything north of 53'00" to Ontario could, on the face of it, be a huge net gain to the province in the sense that Manitoba would lose a lot of communities that absorb far more financial resources than they generate.

And just in case anyone questions my motives for saying this, this is not some kind of backhanded jab at indigenous people, it's simply the reality of the immense cost of providing a full slate of services to isolated communities that don't really have robust economies of their own. It would be no different if the northern communities were full of white people. It's simply a question of geography. We have no oilsands to pay for our northern communities.

[drew]

I would just relinquish it back to Ottawa. They can add it to Nunavut, or make it it's own Territory. Capital city - Thompson. It basically already serves as the administrative centre in the area anyway.

The area is basically already wholly funded through Ottawa, as the vast majority of the communities are First Nations.

[esquire]

^ Ottawa handles a lot of the on-reserve stuff, but there is a massive amount of provincial resources that are directed to the north. Just simple things taken for granted in southern Manitoba, like getting doctors and postsecondary instructors, medical transfers, road infrastructure, all huge $$$.

[drew]

^ Oh, I agree - it's just that a lot of federal dollars are already going to towards the communities now, so what's a bit more to make it a territory?

[ciudad_del_norte]

Much of the northern areas of the larger provinces would probably make more sense as territories if we were consistent in our approach. The only possible exception is AB, where you have pretty decent population much farther north than the rest of the country with farming in peace country and Fort Mac in the NE. Even then, Fort Mac is isolated enough that NE AB would make sense as part of a territory as well. Not that anybody is going to give up land and resource control or course. But instead of 60 degrees north all the way across, there are definitely administrative reasons to have a territory, or territories that more less followed the Candian Shield.

[vid]

Originally Posted by niwell

As you said a lot of Thunder Bay residents seem to skip the rest of the North and go straight to Toronto. There are a ton of business connections and every flight I have flown has at least been pretty full.

Every YQT-TO flight I've been on (regardless of whether it's between Pearson or City Centre) has been completely full, but I've only been on one flight between Thunder Bay and Winnipeg that was more than 75% full. The first and last scheduled flight every day at YQT (and I think YTZ) is a Thunder Bay/Toronto flight. 5am to 1am. And Thunder Bay has the province's 5th or 6th busiest airport (used to be 3rd before Porter Airlines revitalized City Centre and discount airlines discovered London and Hamilton) even though we're the 17th largest CMA in the province. It's by far the busiest airport in Northern Ontario, probably half of the passengers that fly in this region go through it.

Should note that no airlines use jets to service us anymore, they all replaced them with Q400s so they could increase flight frequency, which is kind of annoying (they're a bit slower and there is no tv on the back of the seat) but also really convenient (you can chose from 12 to 16 flight times per day, and two different airports). I think we only had 8 flights to Pearson daily back when it was just WestJet and Air Canada jets. So you can probably credit Porter Airlines for bringing us closer to Toronto.

Originally Posted by wave46

I'm sure if you took a poll of the residents of the Northeast or Northwest and asked if they'd been to the other region of Northern Ontario, most would say either "no" or "once".

If you changed that question to whether they'd been to Toronto/Ottawa, a majority would answer "yes".

That's mainly due to services though. Thunder Bay is the service centre for NWO, so most people in NWO have been here to access health care, education and government services. If Thunder Bay doesn't have it, you go to Toronto, not Sudbury. (In rare situations, Winnipeg; in exceptional situations, Duluth or Minneapolis) In the north east, you'll go to Sault Ste. Marie, Sudbury, Timmins or North Bay depending on what service you need, not Thunder Bay. And Toronto from there is the service isn't in those towns.

The space between Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie is a huge obstacle, and the amount of people travelling that corridor doesn't justify a cheap flight (it costs 5 times as much for me to fly from Thunder Bay to Sault Ste. Marie than it does to fly to Toronto; and in that respect, Europe is more accessible.)

Northeastern Ontarians consider NWO to be part of the province because there's more province to the north and west of them. But for us, we're the end. If they take a step back, they're in our yard. If we take a step back, we're not in Ontario anymore. And since we never need to go to the Northeast, it doesn't really factor into anything for us. The closest I've been to Sudbury is when I flew over Espanola to get to Toronto.

Also, Northwestern Ontario is bilingual too, but English and Oji-Cree, not English and French. Anti-francophone sentiment is disappearing but still exists here. You're more likely to hear several languages before French in this city. That creates a bit of a further disconnect. I've met people here who think everyone in Northeastern Ontario speaks French because they went to Hearst once and everyone speaks French there.

Originally Posted by esquire

And just in case anyone questions my motives for saying this, this is not some kind of backhanded jab at indigenous people, it's simply the reality of the immense cost of providing a full slate of services to isolated communities that don't really have robust economies of their own. It would be no different if the northern communities were full of white people.

I like to bring this up to people about those isolated communities. If you're going to say that remote First Nations need to be relocated to larger cities, you should probably concede the same about remote white communities like Nakina, Armstrong, Manitouwadge or Pickle Lake. The sum of their populations could be put into Thunder Bay Transit's 49-vehicle fleet and driven the 500km to this city and I doubt people here would even notice the new arrivals.

But then you can do the same with Thunder Bay and Toronto. Depends on how centralized you want people to be. Newfoundland literally bribes residents of its outports to move to centralized communities and many refuse.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by vid

I know very few people who go to Northeastern Ontario. Lots who go to Winnipeg, Calgary and Toronto.

There are 24 to 36 flights between Thunder Bay and Toronto daily compared to 6 between Thunder Bay and Winnipeg (both directions for each and only the three major Eastern Canada airlines; I'm not counting all the smaller regional carriers.). If you're stuck on land you go to Winnipeg but if you don't mind (and can afford) flying you'll go to Toronto (you can land downtown!). If you factor in how easy it is to get to a city, Toronto is the closest major centre.

The biggest complaint we have is that we're a region of 750,000 people in a province with 4 cities bigger than that. Land use policies and the powers of local government are essentially out of our control and the priorities set by the province aren't in sync with our needs.

Regional government would be the best option. Give cities and regions more rights and devolve some taxing powers to municipalities and counties and splitting up Ontario will become a non-issue.

My next door neighbours are originally from T-Bay and so are a few of my friends who live here now. And I meet people from there quite often. I have quite a few friends originally from Timmins who now live in T-Bay. I've been to a couple of weddings there and have stayed with those friends when visiting. Most of my friends from T-Bay who live here like Thunder Bay as a city more than Timmins but ended up here for employment and they didn't want to move South. Thunder Bay and Timmins are pretty much at the same latitude, temperatures are pretty much the same but Timmins is less sunny and gets twice as much snow. In fact, Thunder Bay is the sunniest city in Ontario while Timmins gets the least amount of sunshine.

I have to agree that regional governments would be better for us in Northern Ontario. I also agree that land use policy for us need to be controlled by us, only Northern MPPs.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by wave46

While I concede that there are cultural and economic similarities between the Northwest and Northeast, I don't find there is much in the way of linkage between the populations. A resident of Thunder Bay would likely not move to Sudbury and vice-versa, in my experience. Those who do move end up in larger cities - Ottawa and the GTA - as they have more to offer from a specialization view.

Also, as others have mentioned, it is quicker for someone to get from Thunder Bay to Toronto by air than to drive between the nearest Northwestern and Northeastern cities. So, in a sense, there are stronger links between north and south than there is between west and east. In a similar vein, it is far easier to get to the south from Sudbury and North Bay than to anywhere in the northwest.

The province of Northern Ontario would be an unwieldy, disjointed, resource-dependent province. It is a sparsely populated hinterland. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Being our own province will not solve the economic issues that plague the north.

Attaching the Northwest to Manitoba wouldn't really change much either. Thunder Bay is as far away from Winnipeg as it is from Sault Ste. Marie. It is truly one of the most isolated cities in Canada that is not located above 60 degrees latitude.

Any "benefit" to redrawing provincial borders would be outweighed by the logistical hassle of the endeavor. Also, provincial borders are minor inconveniences at best - as a citizen of Canada, working across a provincial border is a non-issue.

I do agree that more people seem to be moving to the large Southern cities but that's the case equally across Northern Ontario. And most of our flights from Timmins go to Toronto. But there are many people who move within the North and only want to live here. You'll find people for example who work in mining who have lived in Red Lake, Timmins, Sudbury and Atikokan or maybe an Ontario government public servant who has lived and worked in Thunder Bay , Hearst, Sault and North Bay. I find the Northeast and Northwest are almost identical in most ways. Now the far North is very different culturally for obvious reasons.

What would you say are the main differences between the Northwest and Northeast?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My view may be skewed by over-representation of francophones in my Northern Ontario connections, but my impression has always been that the NE functions as a triangular entity focused on Timmins-Sudbury-North Bay with spinoffs to the Kapuskasing and Tri-Town (Timiskaming) regions.

Beyond that, people from the NE look mostly to Toronto and Ottawa.

The Soo is kind of off on its own and has its own small sphere of influence.

As do Thunder Bay and the NW.

In the Northeast, Temiskaming Shores (former tri-towns), Kirkland Lake and Kapuskasing have lost a lot of clout. Timmins is starting to lose quite a bit now. Sudbury of course gets the most focus by far and now to the point where residents in other Northeastern cities are saying the government only works to help that city. North Bay and the Sault still are seen as important but nothing like Sudbury. It's pretty much a view today where it's all about the largest city and urbanization.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Loco101

In the Northeast, Temiskaming Shores (former tri-towns), Kirkland Lake and Kapuskasing have lost a lot of clout. Timmins is starting to lose quite a bit now. Sudbury of course gets the most focus by far and now to the point where residents in other Northeastern cities are saying the government only works to help that city. North Bay and the Sault still are seen as important but nothing like Sudbury. It's pretty much a view today where it's all about the largest city and urbanization.

If you only had one city this wouldn't be an issue. My municipal ward is larger than our second largest city.




Aside from language and connectivity there aren't any major differences between the two regions, the only thing that really drives the two regions apart is isolation.

Thunder Bay is the second most isolated city in Canada after St. John's NL, unless you count cities in other countries, in which case we're third after Prince George BC. St. Louis is as far away as Toronto and Chicago is as far away as Sudbury.

And when you look at it that way, we should probably really be in Minnesota. But even then, we'd be the most isolated city by far.

[mistercorporate]

Yeah, Sudbury, that congested ghettoized urban jungle full of foreigners, gets all the perks! Not like the hardworking salt of the earth pure Canadian folks up in Kapuskasing. We should go our own way and let those 3rd world refugees and deadbeats in Shit-bury pay their own way!

They may take our lives, but they'll never take our mooses! Freedom for Northern Ontarioooo!!

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I do agree that more people seem to be moving to the large Southern cities but that's the case equally across Northern Ontario. And most of our flights from Timmins go to Toronto. But there are many people who move within the North and only want to live here. You'll find people for example who work in mining who have lived in Red Lake, Timmins, Sudbury and Atikokan or maybe an Ontario government public servant who has lived and worked in Thunder Bay , Hearst, Sault and North Bay. I find the Northeast and Northwest are almost identical in most ways. Now the far North is very different culturally for obvious reasons.

What would you say are the main differences between the Northwest and Northeast?

I think I was unclear in my post. I do think the regions are culturally and economically similar (aside from the second language). In fact, the few times I've visited Thunder Bay, it reminded me more of my hometown of Sudbury than many similar-sized cities that I've been to down south.

When I said that the linkage between the populations of the two areas was weak, what I meant is that proportionally fewer people seem to have either lived in (or visited) the other region. People are far more likely to have moved from the southern areas of the province to the north than between one region of the north to the other. Partly that's a sheer numbers thing, also, that larger cities tend to draw people by nature, but it's a little unusual that two places that felt so similar had so little interaction.

Just an observation I've made over the years.

[Razor]

I'm willing to bet that if the Ontario Government could create some sort of Utopian province or have a do over, all resource towns like Timmins and Kirkland Lake would be two weeks in two weeks out fly ins like the trend we've been seeing. Everybody would live in the cities, and most of these resource towns would be camps. or an extension of cottage country/recreation.

Of course it's too late now.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Join with Manitoba.

Mantario!

[biguc]

Originally Posted by esquire

Agreed. Assuming that Manitoba Hydro got to keep its northern dams, ceding everything north of 53'00" to Ontario could, on the face of it, be a huge net gain to the province in the sense that Manitoba would lose a lot of communities that absorb far more financial resources than they generate.

And just in case anyone questions my motives for saying this, this is not some kind of backhanded jab at indigenous people, it's simply the reality of the immense cost of providing a full slate of services to isolated communities that don't really have robust economies of their own. It would be no different if the northern communities were full of white people. It's simply a question of geography. We have no oilsands to pay for our northern communities.

Just like that, you guys are willing to give up on the dream of Roblin City, where humans and polar bears will finally learn to coexist. Well, you'll all look silly when global warming turns Hudson bay into a tropical paradise--the Gulf of Nunavut--and Hyperloops bring the trip time from Winnipeg down to an hour.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by biguc

Just like that, you guys are willing to give up on the dream of Roblin City, where humans and polar bears will finally learn to coexist. Well, you'll all look silly when global warming turns Hudson bay into a tropical paradise--the Gulf of Nunavut--and Hyperloops bring the trip time from Winnipeg down to an hour.

Thank you! I had to look up what this Roblin city was, incredible! I wish it had been built, or will be built. It still has the potential of becoming a reality as it is the only deep sea port to the arctic Ocean which could potentially be of use for shipping with global warming.

[esquire]

I think the Roblin City thing is given more weight than it really deserves... it's more of a fanciful idea reflecting the spirit of the times than any kind of serious plan. It's a bit like the fantasy renders you see people post in some threads around here.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think the Roblin City thing is given more weight than it really deserves... it's more of a fanciful idea reflecting the spirit of the times than any kind of serious plan. It's a bit like the fantasy renders you see people post in some threads around here.

Pfff. Fantasy Shmantacy. I'm booking a flight and packing my bags to go be a part of the future in Churchill!

[vid]

Originally Posted by Razor

I'm willing to bet that if the Ontario Government could create some sort of Utopian province or have a do over, all resource towns like Timmins and Kirkland Lake would be two weeks in two weeks out fly ins like the trend we've been seeing. Everybody would live in the cities, and most of these resource towns would be camps. or an extension of cottage country/recreation.

Of course it's too late now.

All the new mining companies do that. Musselwhite has around 500 employees, none of them live in the area permanently. They all fly in, some from as far away as Toronto. The days of building a whole town just to support a sawmill or mine are over.

Anyway, this:

https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-ne...mocracy-582303

Northern Ontario Party promises direct democracy
The Northern Ontario Party membership has voted to accept a platform that includes direct democracy on all legislative votes.

Oh goodie!!

Ninety-seven per cent of 37 NOP members voted to remove the party whip position on principle to ensure elected MPPs always vote with the wishes of their constituents.

Well I guess it will be 36 members tomorrow... "If I can't be party whip I don't wanna play!"

The policy was passed among 24 formal positions including eliminating Ontario Power Generation

OK, but wait until you find out what they propose to take over it's responsibilities!

[eliminate] the Municipal Property Assessment Corporation

A populist move, not a practical one. Thunder Bay has had to pay back millions in taxes due to industrial properties being either devalued or switched to commercial.

reducing and forgiving municipal industrial taxation

Which is literally the problem MPAC is causing. "MPAC is forcing cities to make home owners pay all the taxes! I know: Let's have homeowners pay all the taxes!!"

Like they don't realize that property taxes are nowhere near the biggest issue when a company decides to locate somewhere. No one is saying "Gee, I'd like to build my factory in Sudbury, but the taxes are just so high! I'll go to Barrie instead where they're $250 cheaper!"

introducing legislation that would require at least half of mining and forestry resources to undergo value-added manufacturing in Northern Ontario

I'm sure Greenpeace will love this as that's essentially a guarantee that much of them will remain in the ground.

"abolishing" the positions of public servants earning over $500,000 per year

Abolishing the positions? Why not just lower the salaries?

and putting an immediate start to the proposed Ring of Fire mining development.

How?

"Dear Noront Resources,

Build the Ring of Fire RIGHT NOW of you'll never eat a Persian again!

Sincerely,

NOP"

The platform proposes Thunder Bay Hydro take over energy production and distribution for all of Northern Ontario, with an increased focus on hydroelectric generation.

Why not just create a new corporation to do that? Why does Thunder Bay's municipal electricity distributor have to take responsibility for operating the region's entire power grid? The number of power plants TBHydro current operates is approximately no power plants.

It suggests mandating future solar installations be put on roofs rather than "unsightly solar farms using up valuable farmland" and repealing the Green Energy Act.

Thunder Bay's two solar farms are located on the airport ground (not farmland) and in a swamp on the reserve (not farmland). But OK.

"Why is it, in the same province that Thunder Bay Hydro is able to produce a cheaper price than the province itself? A better model needs to be set up," Holliday said.

Literally doesn't understand how the local distribution of electricity works in Ontario. TBHydro charges less for distribution because they don't have to spend as much maintaining a distribution network. If they suddenly were made responsible for all of the rural distribution lines, that pricing would go up pretty quick.

"We keep looking at Quebec Hydro saying, 'look at their rates' and it falls back to which model is best. It's showing green energy isn't necessarily the best way to go, financially."

Just because the Liberals created an absolutely terrible programme that pays companies for electricity whether they actually produce it or not doesn't mean that green energy is a failure. Thunder Bay's main power plant has produced, like, 1MW in the past two years but its staff of over 100 (with average salaries of about $75,000/year) show up to work every day to have "safety meetings" and "talk about the energy system". With each other.

The document makes no mention of Indigenous Peoples or First Nations communities

Oh for fuck sake. :

Holliday said he considers the interests of Indigenous people and communities to be addressed similarly to municipalities in terms of legislating increased resource royalties and infrastructure.

Federal responsibility, not provincial.

- Lower electricity costs for Northern Ontario by having Thunder Bay Power take over power distribution (and production) for all of Northern Ontario, perhaps under a new name like "Northern Ontario Power". Thunder Bay Power rates are more reasonable. Eliminate OPG

The fuck is "Thunder Bay Power"?

Have any future solar installations be on rooftops rather than unsightly solar farms using up valuable farmland

THE FUCK IS OUR VALUABLE FARMLAND??

Eliminate Green Energy Act and revert back to dams etc. More efficient, cheaper and it works. (ie utilize Quebec Hydro as a model).

Does that model come with their topography?

Fuck this is the stupidest thing I have read in a long time and it's still going!

A program paid for by the province to eliminate municipal taxes for ten years for all new manufacturing plants that complete at least 80 per cent of finished form in Northern Ontario.

How does this help cities? lol

Immediately start the Ring of Fire and keeping everything local and not outsourcing the work. Utilizing new policies and laws to benefit the communities.

Everything local? Not outsourcing the work? I don't think they realize how little we produce or how few tradespeople are left. We can't even find enough people to do basic trades like plumbing how the fuck are we going to build the world's largest mine? Is it 1902 again?

[QUOTE]- Grow our two university hospitals in Sudbury and Thunder Bay and attract the much needed specialized talent to these hubs.[/QUOTE

Great plan! Much detail! Wow!

An elected NOP MPP will be required to vote on issues in parliament how the majority of his/her constituents wishes him/her to vote. There will be no party whip.

Tyranny of the majority! Hooray! Good bye arts and heritage funding, hello no-more-potholes-on-Isabel-Street!

We will develop a standard polling method that we commit to using prior to all votes in provincial legislature.

- Abolish online voting

Umm.

Public servants present and future will have a salary cap of $500,000. If currently over that then positions may be abolished and reviewed.

That's very generous, the highest paid civil servants in Northern Ontario do not make that much.

Eliminate Cap & Trade/Carbon Tax and only have a Carbon Tax placed on imports from excessive carbon producing contries of 10%

So basically, a 10% tax on everything coming from China, the US, and the Middle East? I'm sure consumers will love that!

Scrap MPAC in favour of a property valuation system based more closely on the local market.

MPAC literally raises people's assessed values because they painted their hallway last year and devalued our largest factory because "industry in Northern Ontario is worthless". I don't know how much more local it can get.

Review of the government programs for persons in need to ensure they meet cost of living etc. Review their enrollment, eligability and also the way payment is provided to ensure the best options and uniformity is provided.

Eligability.

Tax breaks for any new company that establishes itself in Northern Ontario and employs 50 or more people.

No you chucklefucks! The purpose of attracting new business is to bring in revenue so we can implement shit like "have branch hospitals... expand the child health facilities..."

- Stop the closing of Northern schools then needing to bus students to larger schools. Transfer more power from the province to the school boards who currently have minimal control over budget.

- When building a new school, consider building a multi-use facility which could include the community library, municipal office, and other community needs. This would save on energy costs and long-term building maintenance etc.

These kind of contradict each other. Should we have tiny six room schools with 32 students sprinkled all over the region, or multi-purpose K-12 schools in strategic locations? You can't have both! Unless you want to spend money...

Promote the use of a cost-effective, efficient, modern rail system that could travel on the rail lines as an economical alternative to big diesel locomotives pulling passenger cars. This would help reinstate passenger rail service across Northern Ontario.

Promote the use? How about start with "encourage the existence" because you can incentivize passenger rail all you want but until we actually have some it won't change anything.

Create and maximize transportation to the majority of Northern Ontario communities and mines.

MAXIMIZE transportation!

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[Loco101]

Originally Posted by wave46

I think I was unclear in my post. I do think the regions are culturally and economically similar (aside from the second language). In fact, the few times I've visited Thunder Bay, it reminded me more of my hometown of Sudbury than many similar-sized cities that I've been to down south.

When I said that the linkage between the populations of the two areas was weak, what I meant is that proportionally fewer people seem to have either lived in (or visited) the other region. People are far more likely to have moved from the southern areas of the province to the north than between one region of the north to the other. Partly that's a sheer numbers thing, also, that larger cities tend to draw people by nature, but it's a little unusual that two places that felt so similar had so little interaction.

Just an observation I've made over the years.

I agree with all of that! Well said.