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  #101  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 2:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
You didn't have much to say about this post.
There wasn't much to really add to what you posted. Saskatchewan, Ottawa, and Winnipeg are all bright spots for CFL attendance. Montreal's 18K is a bit of a concern for a team that routinely draws above 20K, and the longterm viability and future renovations of Molson are a talking-point moving forward.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
How about doing us a favour and mensching up about why you want to kill the CFL.
I've repeatedly said that I don't want to see the CFL killed.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
It's not going to affect MLS attendance in any way shape of form so why fear it?
There's nothing to really fear about the CFL...i'm mostly concerned with the fact that it's losing numbers at the gate. Teams like BC and Toronto are drawing much less than they used to and you can't tell me that having franchises in two of Canada's three largest centres with declining gates is good for the league. This is a common discussion point over at the CFL forums, and one of the busiest, most popular threads there deals with the issues the Argos are facing with revenue, gates, and general interest. There's also a lengthy discussion revolving around the financial stability and viability of the BC Lions moving forward. I'm not pulling these talking points out of thin air and it's unfortunate you think i'd be cynical enough to create something from nothing.

This constant belief that i'm a pro-MLS, anti-CFL guy is pretty remarkable. I talk a lot about MLS attendance because it's been increasing year-over-year-over-year. It's positive for sport in Canada. I've been talking about the Wolfpack a lot lately and I couldn't care less about rugby as a sport.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Do you really think people are so stupid they can't recognize your constant insidiously negative CFL posts and shots. Why the fear?
All I ever seem to get is combative posts from CFL fans accusing me of favouritism. I asked you for bright spots in my previous post and in return I get a reply post essentially attacking my attitude and views. It's a good first step in any productive conversation to say the least.

Again, show me some positive CFL attendance numbers and i'll gladly talk about them. Saskatchewan, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa are all bright spots which haven't seen the recent declines in other franchise bases. Ottawa in particular has been a good pickup in a generally solid market for the league, and my anecdotal evidence from around town tells me they're gaining traction in the market. Winnipeg's attendance has been steady with what its historically been but it seems like IGF was built a tad too large to maintain ticket scarcity and proper supply/demand needed in franchise-based ticket revenue schemes. Discussion over on the Manitoba board seems to mention traffic issues but that seems to be blown out of proportion by local media with nothing better to talk about. Saskatchewan is Saskatchewan and likely always will be. Hamilton's got a great new stadium and a revitalizing core which should feed into success for the Ti-Cats.

So, will your reply attack me again or will we be able to have a constructive conversation on this topic without slinging mud?
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  #102  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 2:44 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
This constant belief that i'm a pro-MLS, anti-CFL guy is pretty remarkable.
Remarkable because it's the truth?

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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
I asked you for bright spots in my previous post.
You better get your prescription checked if you missed the fact that most of my post was proof of good attendance.

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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Again, show me some positive CFL attendance numbers
I did, do you need a magnifying glass? Do you want me to repost with a larger font and bold?

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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
So, will your reply attack me again or will we be able to have a constructive conversation on this topic without slinging mud?
Please don't play the martyr you're not a good enough actor.

Just answer a few questions and man up. Do you want the CFL attendance to improve or die? Don't give me any garbage about studying trends and crap. If you lie and say you want it to improve then how do your backhanded remarks and poorly disguised shots help with that end?

And secondly as an MLS guy, are you still a mod in charge of this section? It's like having a wolf in charge of the henhouse. I'd like to know before I get banned.
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  #103  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 4:26 AM
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Again, your entire post is about me.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
You better get your prescription checked if you missed the fact that most of my post was proof of good attendance.
Borderline offensive if I was someone who actually had to take prescriptions for any sort of condition.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
I did, do you need a magnifying glass? Do you want me to repost with a larger font and bold?
Attendances from four games in one week isn't much to really go off of. It's what I was critical of earlier on the MLS attendances from this past Wednesday.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Just answer a few questions and man up. Do you want the CFL attendance to improve or die?
Yes, i'd like to see CFL attendance improve. It hasn't been. This also isn't about manning up. You're on an internet discussion forum for crying out loud.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Don't give me any garbage about studying trends and crap.
This statement is baffling. Studying trends and crap is exactly how the CFL is going to be getting out of its current attendance decline in select markets. It's what the CFL PR department and and its VP marketing consistently discuss. It's why they consistently talk about the 18-49 demographic, about shifting trends in audience capture, and about gauging interest in the league.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
If you lie and say you want it to improve then how do your backhanded remarks and poorly disguised shots help with that end?
What does my personal opinion have anything to do with any of the numbers I post? I can't fake numbers and I can't dictate what direction they go in. I can have an opinion but i'm not really seeing any sort of distinct counter-argument to that fact, merely scapegoating. I post numbers, provide a view, and instead of being offered a counter-view i'm usually accused of being a lie and a hack. Productive.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
And secondly as an MLS guy, are you still a mod in charge of this section? It's like having a wolf in charge of the henhouse. I'd like to know before I get banned.
I'm not an MLS guy.
I'm not a mod for this section. That doesn't exist.
You're not going to get banned, although your consistent intrigue in my attitude, presumptuousness, and overall disdain for my posting style is certainly noted. If you don't like it you're free to put me on ignore.

As an addendum to this discussion, here's an article from the Toronto Sun wrapping up what i've been trying to get across to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto Sun
But the game also provided evidence of some of the challenges facing a league that has roots dating to about 20 years after Canada was born. After growing steadily in the post-war years until the late 1980s, and a disastrous and failed expansion into the United States in the early 1990s, the CFL bounced back thanks in large part to a national broadcast deal with TSN.

But Montreal’s season-opener, which was more than 3,000 fans short of a sellout, was emblematic of troubling recent trends. While attendance has been excellent in Hamilton’s new stadium, in back-from-the-dead Ottawa and in always-reliable Saskatchewan, the country’s largest markets — Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver — have all seen sharp declines of one sort or another in recent seasons. Even in Calgary, where the Stampeders were historically good in 2016, attendance lagged behind 2015.

Add in the surprise departure of commissioner Jeffrey Orridge this spring, who was only two years into the job and whose split was only ever explained as being over “philosophical differences” with the league’s board, and it’s fair to ask of the one pro-sports league that is unabashedly Canadian: Should the CFL be worried? Or are these just headwinds that the venerable league is figuring out how to overcome?

First, a couple of statements of fact before the discussion. One, the situation in Toronto is so different than anywhere else in the CFL that it merits a separate examination. The Argonauts were thought to be on a short path to an Alouettes-like rebirth with their move to BMO Field last season, but instead attendance was alarmingly poor, the team stunk, and the whole football-operations staff was eventually blown up. But we will leave that for later.

And two, the CFL is in no kind of crisis. The league still has five seasons, including this one, left on a $40-million-per-year broadcast deal with TSN that almost on its own allows clubs to cover their biggest cost: Player salaries. There are dozens of baseball, hockey and basketball teams in the big North American leagues who would love that kind of financial security.

But consider the scene in a Toronto hotel conference room late last year, as Orridge had a state-of-the-league town hall with die-hard fans, the kind wearing vintage CFL jerseys and hardhats with sirens on them and home-made coveralls that said, “Our Balls are Bigger.”

They had questions: What was the league doing about attendance declines? What about attracting younger fans? And the question no one asked: What happens, as the broadcast industry loses cable subscribers, if TSN eventually wants a cheaper deal? What happens, in other words, if the league’s biggest tentpole is chopped down?
Essentially, what's the CFL going to do to improve its situation between now and when the TSN deal ends? Ottawa is a good example of what they could do. Saskatchewan another.

General trending in sports media right now is that TV deals aren't going to be great sources of future revenue increases as TV numbers and markets are tapped out. That is, with declining TV viewership, it should be assumed that future TV deals will decline as such. This isn't solely a CFL-related issue. Online streaming, varying devices, and a multitude of different levels to consume the sport is going to have to be one of the options for future maintenance and growth, and revenue will have to come from them if indeed the TSN contract isn't renewed at a similar level.
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  #104  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 10:03 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
General trending in sports media right now is that TV deals aren't going to be great sources of future revenue increases as TV numbers and markets are tapped out.
So that basically kills what all you MLS guys are hoping for, a big US network contract like the big boy leagues.

So you base your argument on one article with a sensational headline and keep rehashing it?

Here's some "trends" for you.

TOR/WPG: 636,000
CGY/MTL: 628,000
BC/HAM: 523,000
OTT/EDM: 500,000

CFL TV ratings trending up for the past three weeks. The last three games are below last year's average. But that's still well over 10x the average draw of a regular season TFC game last year which averaged 38,000 in the regular season which is a bad rating for the GTA let alone the ROC.

Look at the Toronto number, notice how many people from Alberta and Saskatchewan were watching it but they weren't watching the hometown Esks, so very strange they prefer the Argos to their hometown team.
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  #105  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 10:07 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Borderline offensive if I was someone who actually had to take prescriptions for any sort of condition.
I apologize, I'm sorry I triggered any powerful feelings about myopia that you might have. Next time I'll post a trigger warning.
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  #106  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 2:36 PM
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I figured this news item from the other day should go in this thread as the streaming trend will definitely have a further impact on future attendance and TV ratings:

Live sports streaming service DAZN launches in Canada with NFL Game Pass

DAZN, the Netflix of sports, launches in Canada with exclusive NFL streaming rights

Right now this is an offering for NFL games in Canada, and apparently you'll be able to watch some European soccer leagues as well - but there's a possibility we could be seeing this type of service for other North American leagues in the future - whether it's through DAZN or another provider.

Streaming has been HUGE for movies/TV, but always lagged in offerings for sports... forcing many to use illegal streams instead.

In this particular case Canadians are offered all pre-season, regular season and post-season games... no blackouts at all... all for $20 a month.

I think we'll be seeing increased competition for someone to try to be "the Netflix of sports".
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  #107  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 4:37 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
Streaming has been HUGE for movies/TV, but always lagged in offerings for sports... forcing many to use illegal streams instead.

In this particular case Canadians are offered all pre-season, regular season and post-season games... no blackouts at all... all for $20 a month.

I think we'll be seeing increased competition for someone to try to be "the Netflix of sports".
I think price points are very important to streaming enterprises. The market they are after are relatively tech savvy people (read most young people) who have likely grown up downloading and streaming music and movies without paying.

I think people will pay if they believe the price is reasonable and fair. In my opinion (and I'm a cheap SOB) the cost of Netflix is fair (I'm not a subscriber). I've read about this sports service and it's cost seems fair.

But I've also read that the Sportsnet service was an abysmal failure. I can't remember the price (29 bucks or more)?

With the skeleton cable package at around 25 dollars, the days of the $200 cable bill are likely coming to an end.
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  #108  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 6:15 PM
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21000+ at BC Place last night for the Lions Blue Bombers game. Still small but 2000 larger than the Lions home opener versus the Eskimos. And what a game!
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  #109  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 6:19 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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CFL this week (so far)

Mtl @ Ott
Attendance: 24,756
% Capacity 100.0

Edm @ Ham
Attendance: 23,531
% Capacity 96.8

Wpg @ BC
Attendance: 21,017
% Capacity 76.4 (Using 27,500 lower bowl as capacity)

Ssk @ Cgy
Attendance 30,274
% Capacity 84.9

Ott @ Tor
Attendance 15,801
% Capacity 58.5

18,000 as financial breakeven point

Last edited by elly63; Jul 25, 2017 at 1:42 AM.
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  #110  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Denscity View Post
21000+ at BC Place last night for the Lions Blue Bombers game. Still small but 2000 larger than the Lions home opener versus the Eskimos. And what a game!
Do you know if they are they opening up the upper deck this year or is it still the lower deck? Everyone is saying it was a great game, I missed it, so I'm heading over to TSN Games on Demand to catch it.

TSN Games on Demand Lions vs Bombers
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  #111  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
So that basically kills what all you MLS guys are hoping for, a big US network contract like the big boy leagues.
I'm not an MLS guy. MLS already knows it's not going to be getting a Big 4 TV contract; that's why it's branching out into services like MLSLive and enhancing viewing potential for those interested in streaming and focusing on things outside of standard cable TV.

It's almost as if you want to see the MLS die or something. We're all in this together.

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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
18,000 as financial breakeven point
Is there a source on this by any chance?

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Originally Posted by Denscity View Post
21000+ at BC Place last night for the Lions Blue Bombers game. Still small but 2000 larger than the Lions home opener versus the Eskimos. And what a game!
Indeed. The past two years there was roughly a ~3K drop between home opener and second home game, so it's good to see a rise for the second game out.
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  #112  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Do you know if they are they opening up the upper deck this year or is it still the lower deck? Everyone is saying it was a great game, I missed it, so I'm heading over to TSN Games on Demand to catch it.

TSN Games on Demand Lions vs Bombers
Still just the lower deck so far.
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  #113  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
It's almost as if you want to see the MLS die or something.
No, but if you want me to tell the truth and not keep my posting motivations hidden I am more than happy to truthfully answer any questions you may have.

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Is there a source on this by any chance
Did you read my post?
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  #114  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 10:56 PM
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Still just the lower deck so far.
Yeah, I saw they had the curtains up when I tuned in the Lions/Bombers on demand.
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  #115  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Did you read my post?
You posted attendances and capacity utilizations, then claimed that 18K was the breakeven point for CFL franchises. You haven't really provided any sourcing or information on this and i'm genuinely curious if this is a hard figure or one you've pulled out of thin air. I can't find any confirmation of that figure anywhere.

I found this National Post article from a few years ago that attempts to poke around at some numbers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Cole
If a team draws 20,000 per game nine times, at an average ticket price of, say, $60, that’s $10.8 million from ticket sales. If the average price is $40, that still $7.2 million at the gate alone, before any other revenue is counted.
As the article further goes on to explain, the TSN TV deal which runs until 2021 provides CFL franchises with ~$5M/year, effectively covering the salary cap of each team. The three publicly-owned teams in the league (EDM, WPG, SSK) posted profits of between $4.4M and $1.2M in the last fiscal year (or two). So, if 18K is the current breakeven point for CFL franchises, i'm curious how much a future TV deal would affect that point, and how much they're leaning on the TV deal to turn profits with current gate figures.The three teams that posted profits are also three of the strongest teams for overall attendance and capacity utilization in their stadiums. For teams like BC there have been rumours that the team is unprofitable/roughly breakeven drawing ~20K average/game.
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  #116  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 11:03 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
You posted attendances and capacity utilizations, then claimed that 18K was the breakeven point for CFL franchises. You haven't really provided any sourcing or information on this and i'm genuinely curious if this is a hard figure or one you've pulled out of thin air. I can't find any confirmation of that figure anywhere.
You better go back and read again or get some new glasses.

I never pull anything out of thin air unless I preface it by saying it's my opinion. I've been in the Internet wars too long to post anything I can't backup without third party corroboration.

I'll give you a clue, it's the original post you ignored because it was positive news.
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  #117  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
I never pull anything out of thin air unless I preface it by saying it's my opinion. I've been in the Internet wars too long to post anything I can't backup without third party corroboration.

I'll give you a clue, it's the original post you ignored because it was positive news.
I haven't actually been able to find Madani's statement on the 18K. Could you provide sourcing?

If that is the case, and your 18K is correct, i'm concerned that we're turning our eyes towards what we would consider to be the acceptable floor for financial solvency. BC and Montreal are teetering closer to it and Toronto's submerged underneath.
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  #118  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 11:32 PM
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Elly63,

I don't have a horse in this race, but i really think you're mischaracterizing JHikka here. He is very much a neutral. A fan of the NHL, the CFL and soccer in general (particularly the Ottawa Fury IIRC). JHikka is well known on this forum for providing attendance figures for various leagues. He's even butted heads with me when i was particularly harsh on some CFL fans. Anyway, there's lots of people like that (FrankieFlowerPot is another one), who debate with people on both sides (Frankie is both a TFC and Argos fan).
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  #119  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 11:38 PM
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I haven't actually been able to find Madani's statement on the 18K. Could you provide sourcing?
Google is your friend.

Here's why him reporting it was so great and why CFL people latched on to it. Despite being a former CFL guy (worked with Renegades?) 98% of his reporting, being a loyal Rogers lackey was negative to the CFL, you kind of know what you have to do to maintain a good standing and keep your job.

Basically he was saying (not his words, mine) that with the TV contract even a relatively small crowd of 18,000 will keep you in business and not lose money. So a crowd of 18,000 isn't a catastrophe in financial terms.

Even the Argos said last year despite the brutal crowds, revenues were up. How and why I cannot say. Maybe a better stadium deal was a part of it because Rogers wasn't doing them any favours at the dome despite the still persistent rumours that they still had the sweetheart deal that they had many, many moons ago.

When I was in the biz, you knew where you stood re: reporting. Nobody had to tell you your boundaries. Rogers people knew what was expected of them and being favourable to the CFL was not part of that compact. Kind of like being a right winger at CBC, it just didn't happen, aside from Don Cherry (who was keeping them in business). And possibly because of the barrage of negative reporting Rogers did on the CFL, it's likely they generated a whole lotta bad will because lately the reporting seems much more balanced.
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  #120  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2017, 11:45 PM
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Elly63,

I don't have a horse in this race, but i really think you're mischaracterizing JHikka here. He is very much a neutral. A fan of the NHL, the CFL and soccer in general (particularly the Ottawa Fury IIRC). JHikka is well known on this forum for providing attendance figures for various leagues. He's even butted heads with me when i was particularly harsh on some CFL fans. Anyway, there's lots of people like that (FrankieFlowerPot is another one), who debate with people on both sides (Frankie is both a TFC and Argos fan).
I've never had an issue with Frankie and I agree with you. However I still question jhikka's motives from his past posting history. I've been away for awhile so if he has changed his stance, I'll soon realize.

We can all get along, as I said, I've been a soccer guy longer than some here have been alive but I'm not going to let people take unnecessary shots (open or insidious) against a Canadian league to try and bring it down. And if the CPL gets off the ground I'll be that way for them as well.

Last edited by elly63; Jul 23, 2017 at 12:06 AM.
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