The Great Canadian "Ask a Question" Thread

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

A lot of people here are probably aware of this of course, but the term "Canada" is much older than the modern country and originally it referred to the St. Lawrence area and eventually Southern Ontario (which was frontier country for a long time). Voltaire wrote his "quelques arpents de neige vers le Canada" line in Candide circa 1760.

If you read older material from the Maritimes dating back to the 1860's and earlier, authors refer to "Canada" as a foreign place in the same way that they mention New England. Canadian sort of implied what Quebecer implies today. If asked about their nationality many Maritimers would have said that they were Britons. There definitely wasn't any overarching sense of identity back then.

Correct, Canada was just one part of New France.

I don't know where exactly "Canada" transitioned to "Les Pays d'en Haut" ("The Upper Lands") where you had French posts like Fort Mackinac (nowadays in Michigan). Was Fort Frontenac (~Kingston) considered to be in Canada? The boundary was probably fluid as well over time, so depending on when exactly you take a snapshot, "Canada" might be different. I would definitely say Canada was centered on Montréal/Trois-Rivières/Québec, but I'm not even sure it extended to where Kingston is.

[Komatiite]

Originally Posted by Hali87

How were music and art treated within the school systems elsewhere in Canada?

Rural Manitoba in the 90s music and art was twice a six day cycle and mandatory until grade 6. In junior high you had to choose between band, dance, or art. The vast majority of kids chose band, and they ended up phasing out dance due to the lack of interest, especially from male students.

Junior high also marked the introduction of woods, metals and home ec. French stopped being mandatory in grade 8 or 9.

High school, everything blew open. My school offers both academic and vocational diplomas, and of the latter you could take courses in carpentry, welding, machining, mechanics, autobody, art, cosmetology, and electronics. Many kids also continued with band and French.

Town also had a Ukrainian immersion school and stream that lasted until grade 9.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I have a question... they often claim here that we're the only province with an official provincial anthem, simply because we used to have a national one and then it became provincial in 1949.

Is that true? Does any other province have an officially designated provincial anthem? And, if not, what is the generally accepted unofficial one?

There is an unofficial PEI anthem - it's called The Island Hymn.

About the only time you hear it publicly though is just before the Gold Cup & Saucer harness race in Charlottetown every August. It's a pretty big thing when it happens. Everyone in the grandstands will stand and sing it just like they would the national anthem.

EDIT - apparently the Island Hymn is now the official provincial anthem thanks to an act of the provincial legislature. Read below:

The Island Hymn

The patriotic song of Prince Edward Island was written by Lucy Maud Montgomery in the spring of 1908. It was performed for the first time in public on May 22 of that year. It was sung to Lawrence W.Watson's music, which had been composed especially for her lyric.

The manuscript music, dated Charlottetown, 27 Oct 1908, and correspondence relating to it are displayed at Green Gables House, Cavendish, PEI. An edition for mixed-voice choir was printed by Leslie Music Supply for the Prince Edward Island 1973 Centennial Committee.

The Island Hymn was adopted as the provincial anthem of Prince Edward Island by the Legislative Assembly of Prince Edward Island on May 7, 2010. The Provincial Anthem Act includes a French version of the Island Hymn called L’hymne de l’Île. This French version was adapted by Raymond J. Arsenault of Abram-Village.

The Island Hymn by Lucy Maud Montgomery

Fair Island of the sea,
We raise our song to thee,
The bright and blest;
Loyally now we stand
As brothers, hand in hand,
And sing God save the land
We love the best.

Upon our princely Isle
May kindest fortune smile
In coming years;
Peace and prosperity
In all her borders be,
From every evil free,
And weakling fears.

Prince Edward Isle, to thee
Our hearts shall faithful be
Where'er we dwell;
Forever may we stand
As brothers, hand in hand,
And sing God save the land
We love so well.

Here's a Youtube video of the Island Hymn being sung in (of all places) Saint Petersburg, Florida:

• Video Link

[SignalHillHiker]

AWESOME. So that's at least two with an official provincial anthem. Inaccuracy corrected in my brain.

It needs a proper choir recording - it's hard to tell what's the tune and what's that guy's fairly monotone voice. But it sounds like it could be quite pretty, especially with some parts for women's voices to sing much higher.

Lyrics are lovely. Reminds me very much of England's:

• Video Link

Just needs some of the same treatment.

[Nashe]

Not a provincial one, but Acadians have an anthem too (Since 1884):

Ave Maris Stella

Ave Maris Stella
Dei Mater Alma
Atque Semper Virgo
Felix Coeli Porta
Felix Coeli Porta

Acadie ma patrie
À ton nom je me lie
Ma vie, ma foi sont à toi
Tu me protégeras
Tu me protégeras

Acadie ma patrie
Ma terre et mon défi
De près, de loin tu me tiens
Mon cœur est acadien
Mon cœur est acadien

Acadie ma patrie
Ton histoire je la vis
La fierté je te la dois
En l'Avenir je crois
En l'Avenir je crois

Ave Maris Stella
Dei Mater Alma
Atque Semper Virgo
Felix Coeli Porta
Felix Coeli Porta

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

We're almost there now as well. I'd say no more than 5% of people my age use "Canada" and "Canadian" in a way that implies we're not (for example, "Jane is coming down from Canada", "John's actually Canadian, from Ottawa", etc.). It happens often enough every day that it annoyed Ayreonaut, but it's no longer dominant or anything close.

It won't surprise anyone that Quebec does this a lot as well.

Even federalists here say things like "in Quebec and in Canada (too)...".

"Canadian" doesn't necessarily exclude Quebecers, unless you use both "Québécois" and "Canadiens" in the same sentence.

And of course, if you use the word "Canadian" in English but when speaking in French, then it's obvious you're making a distinction.

As in "Il y a beaucoup de CanadiAns ici ce soir"...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hali87

How were music and art treated within the school systems elsewhere in Canada? Here in Halifax we had mandatory music class from K (called "primary" here) - 6 and then could participate in (extracurricular, not-for-credit) concert band, jazz band, string orchestra, or choir in jr. high and (for-credit) concert band, vocal, or music theory classes and not-for-credit jazz band, string ensemble, or choir. Art was mandatory in grades 4-9 and could be taken for credit in high school.

Phys ed. basically worked like music: mandatory from P-9 and then could be taken as an elective in high school, although it was mandatory to take at least one semester in HS.

Going to school in Ontario and the Maritimes we had both music and visual arts in elementary school. Music was mostly choir singing, learning notes and playing stuff like the recorder and the triangle.

In high school you basically had things split off between those two with those taking music becoming more like a "band" with real instruments, and art got more into finer arts. Plus usually theatre was added into the mix as an artistic option.

My kids are currently on the border between elementary and high school here in Quebec and things appear to be essentially the same.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

Not a provincial one, but Acadians have an anthem too (Since 1884):

Ave Maris Stella

Ave Maris Stella
Dei Mater Alma
Atque Semper Virgo
Felix Coeli Porta
Felix Coeli Porta

Acadie ma patrie
À ton nom je me lie
Ma vie, ma foi sont à toi
Tu me protégeras
Tu me protégeras

Acadie ma patrie
Ma terre et mon défi
De près, de loin tu me tiens
Mon cœur est acadien
Mon cœur est acadien

Acadie ma patrie
Ton histoire je la vis
La fierté je te la dois
En l'Avenir je crois
En l'Avenir je crois

Ave Maris Stella
Dei Mater Alma
Atque Semper Virgo
Felix Coeli Porta
Felix Coeli Porta

Your timing is perfect! As Saturday was Acadia's "fête nationale" (national day).

When you go to gatherings in Acadia, Ave Maris Stella is often referred to as "notre hymne national" when they ask people to rise and sing. As far as I know it is not sung on a regular basis in Acadian schools. At least not to start the day. I suppose kids might learn it in music class though.

A lot of people mistakenly think the very popular "Partons la mer est belle" is the Acadian national anthem. Kind of like how people think "Waltzing Matilda'' is Australia's national anthem.

"Partons la mer est belle" is more melodic and more fun to sing in a group. It's also easier to remember. It's also extremely well known and basically a "household name" as far as songs go all across francophone Canada (including Quebec) and even in much of western France where it originated. If you asked a random sampling of 100 Quebecers point blank, probably 90 or 95 of them could hum the refrain.

Here is a random video of a family gathering singing it on New Year's Eve. Not sure if they are from New Brunswick or Quebec.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRt1oKTMWIE

It's also a good children's lullaby song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRt1oKTMWIE

[Hali87]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that we could start learning stringed instruments in grade 4 (violin) or 5 (cello) - the school board had a huge bank of them and unlike the wind/percussion instruments they were very cheap to rent (either free or something like $20/year). Stringed instruments couldn't be taken as credit in high school though (except for guitar and bass).

As far as I know none of the high schools here had courses in auto mechanic or very specific things like cosmetology. We all did shop (carpentry/engineering/industrial design) and home ec (cooking and tailoring) in jr high and these could also be taken in HS (I don't think metals was an option but I could be wrong - carpentry definitely was). I believe there were also childcare classes in HS (or it might have been part of a larger home ec or psychology course) and we could also take electives in things like film, drama, and various business/IT skills. This might be a reflection of the local job market and the kinds of skill sets that are common here (ie. relatively small manufacturing base, relatively large hospitality, film/entertainment, fashion/design, IT sectors, lots of wood construction).

In retrospect auto shop (or something similar) would actually be very useful and I could see some justification for it being a core class; knowing how something like an internal combustion engine or an electric motor works is extremely useful, even if you have no ambition of becoming a mechanic or engineer. This could even get worked into the physics curriculum, or something.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It won't surprise anyone that Quebec does this a lot as well.

Even federalists here say things like "in Quebec and in Canada (too)...".

"Canadian" doesn't necessarily exclude Quebecers, unless you use both "Québécois" and "Canadiens" in the same sentence.

And of course, if you use the word "Canadian" in English but when speaking in French, then it's obvious you're making a distinction.

As in "Il y a beaucoup de CanadiAns ici ce soir"...

This seems like an extremely affected practice.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

This seems like an extremely affected practice.

Please elaborate.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Please elaborate.

As SHH put it, the use of "Canadian" in this way that implies the speaker is not. For some reason a lot of Canadians badly want to distinguish themselves from others, and this type of pretending is apparently a common way of doing it.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

As SHH put it, the use of "Canadian" in this way that implies the speaker is not. For some reason a lot of Canadians badly want to distinguish themselves from others, and this type of pretending is apparently a common way of doing it.

No, I can assure you that it's way more organic and natural than you think. "Here" and "us" without any other context in Quebec mean by default Quebec and Québécois.

There's no "trying to distinguish from others" at play. Just basic facts on the ground.

[SignalHillHiker]

It's partly an affected practice, yes, especially among people my age and younger. But it does come from somewhere - parents or grandparents who still speak this way, for whom it's more of a geographic/identity reference than anything else.

In the identity sense...

If a middle-aged woman here is telling friends about her new son-in-law, saying he's Canadian instantly tells them a paragraph worth of information - most importantly that he's not from here. They'll fill in the blanks with the stereotypes everyone recognizes (positive ones too), share knowing smiles, and all that's left for the middle-aged woman to articulate is how that instant impression is incorrect. "But he's got a wicked sense of humour and he's witty enough to put anyone to shame.", etc.

That's the way it still survives, for the most part. And it proves useful.

In terms of geography, it exists as short-hand for "the rest of Canada". When someone in their 20s here says they're going to work up in Canada, they don't really mean we're not - they just mean the mainland. They could just as easily say "upalong". They can even say "mainland" or "away", but those doesn't specifically reference Canada. Mainland could be the U.S. as well, and "away" could be literally anywhere else on earth.

So you'll see this type of reference quite often as well - but, again, it's not political.

But, yeah, of course there are people who do it like this:

http://failblog.cheezburger.com/failbook/tag/swastika

I met a woman who claimed she wasn't Canadian because she voted against it and never signed anything. And it didn't seem to be just a case of mental illness.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

No, I can assure you that it's way more organic and natural than you think. "Here" and "us" without any other context in Quebec mean by default Quebec and Québécois.

There's no "trying to distinguish from others" at play. Just basic facts on the ground.

I tend to agree with this. It may have started as a deliberate and consciuous attempt to distinguish oneself but at this point it's simply the way people see things and talk.

Depending on the context, "Canada" and "Canadians" may or may not include us.

Where I live in Gatineau tilts more slightly to the Canadian view than the rest of Quebec, but even so we tend to be more aligned with the rest of Quebec in this way.

Canada seems to be more a geographic and administrative space. (Rightly or wrongly, it is what it is.)

I was thinking about this when riding my bike to work this morning.

I passed by a few Acadian flags (well, two exactly) hanging from balconies that were left over from parties people had on Saturday night I assume.

It dawned upon me that most common annual flag displays in order here (based on number of flags you see) is probably:

Quebec flags: June 24

Acadian flags: August 15

Canadian flags: July 1

Of course, the World Cup when it's on changes everything.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

As SHH put it, the use of "Canadian" in this way that implies the speaker is not. For some reason a lot of Canadians badly want to distinguish themselves from others, and this type of pretending is apparently a common way of doing it.

Also, "Canadians are all the same from coast to coast", "All Canadian provinces are equally distinct from each other", "there is a single Canadian identity", "there is a single common Canadian culture with many elements comprising it", "language is just a means of communication and does not lead to significant cultural distinctions between Canadians", etc. are also all acquired "affections'', as you say, that can also be seen as "pretend" as opposed to being based on the reality on the ground.

[esquire]

^ There may be legitimate historical reasons for this (and I can totally understand an elderly NLer using those terms, for example, given that they were brought up with this reality), but it's still super affected in this day and age. But Quebec and NL aren't alone... you see it any place with a strong regional identity. Go to Hawaii and many people there like to talk about the US as though it were a foreign country that they aren't part of. Just one of those regional quirks.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It dawned upon me that most common annual flag displays in order here (based on number of flags you see) is probably:

Quebec flags: June 24

Acadian flags: August 15

Canadian flags: July 1

Of course, the World Cup when it's on changes everything.

I love that - we don't really have a huge change throughout the year.

Every other house has a flag on it. Most have either the tricolour or the Canadian flag. A close third is the provincial flag OR the Union flag, often in combination with the Canadian one. The Labrador flag also exists, usually wherever a Labradorian has moved to the city. And sometimes you get more unusual combinations, such as the tricolour and Canadian flag together (I've noticed that one on so many homes for sale that I think some realtors might be recommending it, lol):



None of this ever really changes, except for one day each year.

The only time you really see a difference is July 1 (which, as you know, is Memorial Day here as well). People decorate for Canada Day, often with no ill intentions (but you'd be surprised; people are very aware of the flag war here and many take great pride in the negative reaction some may have to trotting out the Maple Leaf. Ayreonaut picked it up here, never missed a chance to point out a Canadian flag and smile at me, ), but that provokes people to decorate for Memorial Day, usually with the Union flag, English flag, tricolour flag, or some battle flags I don't recognize but are heavily Union flag-influenced.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was thinking about this when riding my bike to work this morning.

I passed by a few Acadian flags (well, two exactly) hanging from balconies that were left over from parties people had on Saturday night I assume.

It dawned upon me that most common annual flag displays in order here (based on number of flags you see) is probably:

Quebec flags: June 24

Acadian flags: August 15

Canadian flags: July 1

Of course, the World Cup when it's on changes everything.

And you're in Gatineau, which is really the place in Quebec where you see the highest display of the Canadian flag.

If you're talking year-round, in Quebec generally when people have "the flag" in their windows or on a pole it's nearly always the Quebec flag.

Spending time in the US really drives this realization home, here the most common flag by far displayed on personal property is the country flag. (Surprisingly enough I'd say the second most common is the Confederate flag and third would be the state flag. Not sure if that's temporary in the aftermath of the SC shootings.)

Businesses though all seem to have both flags, US and TX.

Speaking of flags, I know there's an Irving east of Drummondville on the 20 that's flying a giant flag... It's probably not alone in doing so, but it's more rare to see back home the same kind of huge size flag you often see in the US with businesses. Guess which flag it is? Right, it's our flag.

And again, it's not a conscious choice made to try to hammer home some kind of point. It's just natural. If you're going to fly a flag that's the one you're likely going to pick as "yours".



P.S. I hope you don't find us annoying, I'm really not a patriot at all, and I don't have any hidden agenda here, just reporting the facts on the ground... it wouldn't be a big deal to me if people in Quebec all started to fly the maple leaf flag. They just don't, so I'm not going to pretend they do...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada seems to be more a geographic and administrative space. (Rightly or wrongly, it is what it is.)

This is a fascinating way of putting it, and I tend to agree with this.

While Quebecers and Newfoundlanders may distinguish "Canadians" from themselves as a mental shortcut meaning "not us", the same thing also happens in the Maritimes although the terminology we use would be more in terms of "upper Canadian" or "from out west".

I think this has a lot to do with ancient holdovers from the pre confederation era , when we were all independent colonies. You probably don't get this sense of distinctiveness in the newer western provinces (or even in Ontario, where most Ontarians automatically assume Ontario is Canada).

National identity remains a work in progress in Canada. It didn't really happen in the US untill several decades after the end of the civil war, when the south finally began to buy into American nationalism and old fashioned "states rights" finally began to disappear. In many ways, it was WW2 that created modern America.

I imagine it might be another 50 years yet before all the lingering vestiges of pre-confederation identity disappear in Canada, and even then ethnic identity will perpetuate a sense of separateness in Quebec (and probably Newfoundland). It's already disappearing in the Maritimes I think.......