Fargo-Moorhead developments information

[SmileyBoy]

I agree with your thoughts, NanoBison. It's real visionary.

It looks like I have finally met someone with more passion and enthusiasm about this city than I have.

[Midwesterner19]

Originally Posted by NanoBison

I would agree with you Midwesterner19 in the respect that downtown Fargo won't be a retail center that ever compares with what's near West Acres. That's not the downtown I would want anyways. We need to keep building up the commercial activity in downtown, and by that I mean entice more businesses (commercial/services/high-tech/banking) to locate downtown. Build some larger residential developments, preferably high-rises that cater to middle-income individuals/families. As the critical mass of people start concentrating in downtown Fargo (like they currently are starting to) you will only have to sit back and watch the retail boom. If the higher-end shops from that other list come to town in the Brandt or LasVegas developments, I don't think they would have a problem. They not only be serving the people of the FM-area but also anyone from around North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, and Saskatchewan (where Winnipeg is ) areas, that don't want to go down to the Minneapolis-St. Paul area to do their shopping. Last I heard, the figure was approaching 500,000-800,000 potential shoppers for the FM area within a certain radius of the city.

Keep in mind too, North Dakota has the highest rate of millionaires per population out of all states in the U.S.

If you make a place a destination, people will come.

West Acres and Osgood will be that destination but I dont think the high-end exclusive retailers will come here with the the fact the MSA for Grand Forks and Fargo combined are 280,000 people.

Downtown Fargo is just not that vibrant at all. I mean they have virtually no-foot traffic and the only time people go down there except for the perhaps five hundred white-collar workers in three low rise (5 to 15 storey) buildings is to go to the bar on Friday and Saturday nights (even half of those bars have are half empty). I heavily doubt with all the vacant storefronts and warehouses they have downtown that your gonna see high-rise devolopment downtown. Fargoans have voted with their feet and the fact of the matter is Osgood and West Acres are where its at!!

Fargo just doesnt have the demographic for a viable downtown. This is an extremely family-oriented community. People here love the suburbs where they can have a wood-framed 4 bedroom house on a half acre. You dont have the liberal and singles base to have a viable downtown beyond what there is now. Unlike most college towns most of the college students are married and starting families by the time they are in their early 20s.

Look at the lack of construction downtown and look at the West side of town its booming. Fargo is all about West Acres and Osgood, thats where almost all the devolopment is centered around.

Well, the official income statistics are Fargo MSA has a per capita income on average of 96% of the national average and the Fargo EA has a per-capita income of 92% of the national average. That is from the 2004 Bureau of Economic analysis. The state must have a massive income disparity if they have the most wealthy per-capita and its still only about 90% of the national average on per-capita income.

Bismarck and the Oil and Coal producing counties of the western part of the state are wealthier per-capita then Fargo is. They should call it Will$ton.

[Midwesterner19]

Originally Posted by NanoBison

Here's an idea, and I know this may be far fetched. What if we built another mall, say twice the size of West Acres, built a decent zoo, maybe an amusement park, and definitely a water park, along with a few other "destination" type attractions?

They could even advertise it with other special packages like for Birthdays, Mother's Day, Father's Day, Anniversaries, etc... where they could stay in a nice hotel for less and get prime services like health spa and message, manicures. Then they could have the fine dining of downtown.

I think that could possibly fly (pardon the pun) with a litte bit of work.

Any thoughts?

.

All this that your proposing would require massive tax abatements for the devolopers. Fargo is nearly in a state of crisis over high property taxes.
The mayoral election is about one issue property taxes, property taxes, property taxes. This new mall you propose would just shuffle the shoppers from the current mall to the one you are proposing sales tax revenue would probubly not increase much because they would be same shoppers.

The two martini and fine dining establishment already do good business as opposed to every thing else you see downtown weekend nights. Do they even have the capacity?

People come down from Winnipeg because of the exchange rate being so favorable at the moment. If the Canadian dollar was very weak they would be shopping in Winnipeg. Who knows if the american vs, the canadian dollar will rise or fall anyway?.

Who knows what Grand Forks will do anyway, if they have a big expansion people might just drive from Winnipeg to Grand Forks instead of Fargo. Also note that Grand Forks downtown is moving along faster then Fargo's.

[SmileyBoy]

Originally Posted by Midwesterner19

All this that your proposing would require massive tax abatements for the devolopers. Fargo is nearly in a state of crisis over high property taxes.
The mayoral election is about one issue property taxes, property taxes, property taxes. This new mall you propose would just shuffle the shoppers from the current mall to the one you are proposing sales tax revenue would probubly not increase much because they would be same shoppers.

The two martini and fine dining establishment already do good business as opposed to every thing else you see downtown weekend nights. Do they even have the capacity?

People come down from Winnipeg because of the exchange rate being so favorable at the moment. If the Canadian dollar was very weak they would be shopping in Winnipeg. Who knows if the american vs, the canadian dollar will rise or fall anyway?.

Who knows what Grand Forks will do anyway, if they have a big expansion people might just drive from Winnipeg to Grand Forks instead of Fargo. Also note that Grand Forks downtown is moving along faster then Fargo's.

Ok, a couple points. First off, I don't understand where you got this idea that GF's downtown is growing a lot faster than Fargo's downtown. Have you ever actually been there?? Downtown Grand Forks is very close to being completely ABANDONED, fer chrissakes. They built a bunch of new buildings there after the '97 flood, but they were never able to find many tennants!!! On the other hand, Downtown Fargo is currently undergoing 4 or 5 loft conversion projects, including the Bristol Place apartments, the Union Storage and Transfer loft conversions, the Fargoan loft conversions, and the Kaye's Printing loft conversions. Also on the boards are a new 5-storey office/retail building for the current site of US Bank Plaza, and a plan by Konrad Olson to build a 20-storey miltipurpose tower along the Red River. All the historic storefronts on Main Avenue between Broadway and 6th are now filled with tenants!! So we can just throw that idea out to the water right now.

And what are exactly are you trying to say, that we should just give up on our downtown?? I would NEVER let that happen personally. I also think the population is definitely there for downtown to remain strong. 5-6 years ago, downtown was a living joke. Nobody wanted to go there. Look at how much that has changed since the year 2000!!! 5-6 years of momentum have already more than QUADRUPLED the value of properties in the downtown area. The residential population of the downtown neighbourhood as also gone up in that period of time. (Check the city website.) The momentum is there. The amount of money in that area is going up dramatically. I go to classes downtown (at the NDSU campus) everyday, and I get to see firsthand what it's like there, and it's nothing like what you describe. More and more NDSU art and architecture students and graduate students are now buying apartments downtown. Bristol Place is being marketed as a student-friendly property. Finally we're going to get some low to medium-income housing downtown with the US&T loft conversion. I've even heard from someone that Starbucks is looking to open a downtown location. And actually, I believe the foot traffic has increased from a few years ago when I first observed it. Look at my Fargo photo thread of downtown pictures I took about a month ago. There was not a single empty parking spot!! I do not believe for one minute that Fargo is desined to become a suburban wasteland like Sioux Falls has become. Downtown is not in any trouble. It is in the best shape it has ever been so far this century, and it will only get better. Things will still be built in the suburbs, sure, but don't think for one minute that there's nothing in the city that can support our downtown, because there clearly is.

[NanoBison]

I'm going to agree with Smiley on that 100%. It's always busy downtown. Especially on Friday nights during when school is in session. I've never seen so many college girl hotties out with their boyfriends having a decent night on the town!!! I actually avoid Broadway when I'm driving, cause it's always packed. I usually park on some other side streets and walk. The amount of projects going up in downtown is absolutely amazing and will only continue to grow.

On the response that downtown G.F. is growing faster than downtown Fargo? Are you kidding me? The only reason it may appear that they are building more is because they basically had to rebuild their ENTIRE downtown after it was destroyed and ravaged by the 1997 flood. After that the government handed out millions to get it rebuilt and build a decent dike/flood wall to make sure it doesn't happen again. The unfortunate sad truth about Grand Forks is even though it looks newer, they still have MANY vacancies downtown. Since 2000, according to the Census, the G.F. metro has lost 1,400 more people. That certainly can't help the situation or add to your arguement that dtgf is growing faster than dtfm.

Let me be very clear though, I don't want it to turn into a Mall area. I want it to turn into a Central Business District of great proportion. We need more and more businesses to locate downtown. In order to do that, they are going to have to build some more quality A,AA,AAA office space. Not all businesses want to be in the older style buildings. They are going to want metal, concrete and glass. We also need more people, in terms of lower income and middle income families living downtown. (Heck rich families are great too...) I always thought a smart idea would be to level the lot across the bus station to the north (where the ABC Bookstore and FPS stamping is located), and build like a 20-30 storey residential tower. Nothing special, but decent looking enough not to be an eyesore. That would put a large population directly across from the bus station, which pretty much gets you anywhere in Fargo/Moorhead (it needs more routes though....). It would be perfect for people who depend on public transportation, including students.

There's so much more to do in downtown and it will only get better. There are many things though we still need to work on to make it a true destination, like I was talking about in my earlier post (fly Fargo...). We still need a Zoo, another wonderful hotel (leaning more towards the luxury category Hilton, Westin, etc... NOT Canad Inns), a performing arts center, a gigantic water park (indoors with retractable roof or vents (so it could be used year round), increase the size of the convention center, at least double the size of the Plains Art Museum, add a decent Zoo somewhere in the city (Minot has a better zoo than we do, I know I said Zoo twice, thats a hint...), maybe even a Science/Industry/Technology museum, a water fountain or two, more park space downtown, a decent size Amusement Park (where the rollercoaster cars don't fall off the track...) and I could go on and on and on....I haven't even hit the things that we need for the younger crowds under the drinking age or under 18. There's so much potential.

I know I'm not going to convince you otherwise Midwesterner, you've already convinced yourself years ago when downtown was indeed DEAD that it will never rise again..., but dtfm is going great, whether you think so our not, in my opinion. I know quite a few others share that view. Finally there's no reason why, in the next 10 years we shouldn't be able to get 10,000 people living downtown. We've got 3,741 currently. Only 6,259 to go. Once it hits 10,000 (NDSU's student population minus 2000) I think you'll eventually get more of a larger feeling with hundreds of people walking on the streets every day. (Picture NDSU campus sidewalks on the first day of class in the fall ... )

Quick question for you midwesterner, are you a person who likes FM and is a resident, or are you one of those who bad mouths it whenever they get the chance cause they are waiting for the opporunity to move somewhere else???

[NanoBison]

Originally Posted by SmileyBoy

I agree with your thoughts, NanoBison. It's real visionary.

It looks like I have finally met someone with more passion and enthusiasm about this city than I have.

Thanks, I try to think bigger than most people when talking about the city and it's potential. I've been living here now for almost 10 years since starting my education way back in 1997 (not ten years of school...started a business, went back for Masters, done this Fall) at the greatest educational institution in the state ( the almighty landgrant, NDSU baby!!! ). I've always spoken up when people try to bad mouth us. I want to see the city grow and mature into a regional powerhouse along the levels of a Madison, Des Moines, Boise (got hit hard though after the tech burst), Omaha, or the such. We've been labeled by the rest of the state and we have to live up to it (Imperial Cass).

Funny thing, whenever I hear that stupid arguement of "but don't you want to get out and explore the world a little bit?". In my job and school I've already been to Minneapolis, Chicago, San Jose, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Portland, Seattle, Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Dallas-Fort Worth, Madison, Kansas City, etc... and you know what? Every time I get off the plane at Hector, I breath a sigh of relief that I'm back home.



p.s. You can tell the others, if they bring it up, I'll be back at Bisonville, I just got to take some time off. Those trolls up north can really get to you.

[Midwesterner19]

"Imperial Cass" as was named earlier has job growth rate of 1% as opposed to Bismarck at 2% job growth and Grand Forks at 3% job growth according to the BLS. Cass County also had a domestic out-migration of people last year, they are dependent on the high birth rate and other in-migration to increase the population. "Imperial Cass" also I read has wages about one quarter less then the coal producing counties of Western North Dakota that border Burleigh County (Bureau of Economic analysis 2004 numbers). People are quiting college to work in Williston because they have so much oil. North Dakota and all the mountain states have fast-growing economies, but Fargo (April 2006 numbers) is beneath the rest of the state job growth wise. Its true the economy isnt bad in Fargo, just isnt booming like like the other areas of the state and region.


These loft/condo conversions your talking about are very small projects except for one which covers about half a block and they have been talking about this for 18 months and progress has been slow. I mean hasnt that boarding house been vacant for about a year now and its still just sitting there, most days I see no construction workers there. Three of the four loft/condo conversions are right next to each-other. I have no doubt they will be built, but alot of them are now being marketing as rentals from what I read.

I am not bad-mouthing Fargo, I think the area around West Acres is a very nice set-up out there they have all the retail needs you could possibly want.
I dont think this downtown is on the level of similar-sized cities, seems like most cities with a CSA of 200,000 people have alot more retail and vibrancy then this downtown does. These projects your talking about are small in nature, adding up to perhaps 25 or 50 new housing units downtown during the same time these 25 or 50 new housing units happen downtown, probubly 2,000 have been built in the suburban areas in SW Fargo.

It seems these grandiose plans they come up with tend to happen alot around here. I mean cities and towns plan grandiose projects alot and it doesnt mean they will happen.

You were talking about Main from 6th to 8th yeah they have 2 or 3 shops and a nice coffeeshop there which is decent once you get past 8th on Main
it goes down-hill quickly with vacant storefronts all over the place.

Fargo also likes to talk about they have plenty of parking downtown, they sure do with all those surface parking lots.

[Midwesterner19]

Originally Posted by NanoBison

I want to see the city grow and mature into a regional powerhouse along the levels of a Madison, Des Moines, Boise (got hit hard though after the tech burst), Omaha, or the such. We've been labeled by the rest of the state and we have to live up to it (Imperial Cass).
.

We are talking about metro areas here that are from 500,000 people to 850,000 people when this CSA is 210,000 people and has an out-migration on the domestic level in 2004. Fargo at the current growth level would take 150 years to hit 500,000 people.

Fargo has a fairly large computer/technology base in town. Fargo is a small city with a stable slow growth economy. It does better then alot of places on this area. The job base is here but wages in Fargo are extremely low compared to the national average as an average, obviously they have exceptions.

People in Fargo tend to have very large families. I think Fargo MSA even if it has more technology companies come in that it will still have low per-capita incomes compred to the following cities because people here have much larger families than in Madison, WI. Utah for example has very high household incomes but because of large households its per-capita is dragged down to like 45th or something.

The following cities your talking about are very well off per-capita, have more airport conncections, have many large corperations based in their city and most importantly higher wages.
Omaha is the 16th highest per-income economic area in the country for example, Fargo's economic area is 92% of the national average and the MSA is 96%.

Omaha for example has one fortune 500 company for every 80,000 people living in that city (5 total), Des Moines is one of the highest ranked for insurance companies and Madison's a state capital of a large state and has a 45,000 student university. These are extremely successful cities.


Boise has 6 percent job growth, which is 6 times the rate of Fargo's job growth. I think its safe to say that they arent living in a depression in Boise

[NanoBison]

You know Midwesterner, for a being a person who says “I am not bad-mouthing Fargo”, you sure as hell don’t ever say anything good about it do you? You also make it sounds like all the ideas I propose should happen over night, including getting the city to 500,000 people. It's not going to happen over night, but it certainly won't take 150 years. We currently have (roughly) 2,000 people moving into the metro and/or being born in the metro every year.

Let’s say I start out with just the 185,000 for ONLY the MSA, and let’s keep a growth rate of something conservative, say 1.1%. It will only take 94 years to hit 500,000 and if you increase that growth rate to something a little more aggressive say 1.5% you hit it in 70 years. I’m thinking even more progressively though. I think we can sustain at least 2% growth every year. We’ll hit 500,000 in 53 years. I’ll be hitting the golden age of 80, which is how long I expect it to take. That’s how far ahead I’m thinking Midwesterner. I’m talking about setting the framework to catapult the FM area into the regional hub of a city on a national scale with those other larger cities. (and yes I realize, they will continue growing too, we’re not trying to play catch-up, we’re trying to establish the city as having a presence nationally, and that we will never be on a scale with the 1,000,000+ cities, unless the coasts get so damn crowded the only place left to build is the great plains….)

You also state how much more these cities have than we currently do, such as in terms of airlines flight connections, money, fortune 500 headquarters, etc... ddduuuuuhhhhh. I sure hope they do!!! The only way to achieve a level of accomplishment like that is through continued growth. What’s happening in downtown Fargo-Moorhead and all of the surrounding neighborhoods (with those dreamy large projects, the Brandt Development and Las Vegas developers shopping idea), including the West Acres area will only continue to build on that.

In terms of job growth for Bismarck and Grand Forks, I sure hope they continue to grow, because Grand Forks is currently losing population and most likely that trend won’t reverse unless something significantly happens. Bismarck, I see growing further and maintaining prominently it’s position as second largest city in the state. In terms of the people leaving college to go work for oil near Williston… Good for them, I haven’t heard of any yet. The oil out there is too little, too late. If you think it’s going to reverse Williston’s decline in population, think again. It’s merely a Band-Aid on a cut hemorrhaging profusely. In terms of job growth, can you post a link to that data, so we can see exactly what kind of jobs they are? If the 3% job growth is from call centers and customer service centers like Amazon.com or Sykes, or ING, they can keep those lower paying jobs. We have our fair share of those here too, but we also are working more on the high tech jobs and manufacturing jobs that pay quite a bit better.

You need to open your eyes a little bit wider Midwesterner, if you think that downtown and the city is going nowhere quickly. But then again, you already sound like an individual who is already conformed to their complacency of non-change.

Are you sure you wouldn't be happier living in Grand Forks?

[NanoBison]

Also midwesterner, I never said Boise wasn't doing well. I said they got hit after the tech bubble burst. When you have a corporation like Micron (now something like 18,000 employees) cut 10% of it's technically advanced workforce, that doesn't help matters. In fact if you go here, you can see just how peachy-keen Idaho and Boise were back then.

http://www.idtaxreform.com/PressReleases/030603.htm

I also remember Boise Tower being proposed for their downtown area. Unfortunately with the economy back then, and mishandling of the contractors that tower was never built. I'm sure though, now many years later, things are going better and if that tower was proposed now, slightly modified, they would have no trouble getting it off the ground.

[Midwesterner19]

I envy your ideas, They have a new mayor coming into office this summer. It seems like the next mayor will be fairly conservative commited to a large property tax freeze or cut.

I am wondering do you ever talk to local politicians about your ideas?

The thing is all these plans and good ideas that you have for your city (Fargo) require public subsidy and tons of it. Look at how much subsidies Mall of America wants to built their expansion, its like a 20 year tax abatement on property taxes.

Property taxes (this does not impact me, because I am a renter) are completely out of control in Fargo. Thats all I seem to read about in the paper is about how property taxes are so high in Fargo that people (especially retirees) are considering moving further out to where they arent so high. The homeowner rate in Fargo is only about half the population, this is because of the incredible property taxes. The college is not the reason for the amount of renters here because its 12,000 people at NDSU out 102,000 people thats not that much.

Fargo wants to (if it hasnt already become) become the premier family-friendly city of the upper-midwest. This requires high property taxes because schools are expensive to built, maintain and keep staffed. This also with little in-migration causes a population increase of 1% or a little above every year.

I am sure that any in-migration in Fargo would be mainly families look for a better environment then other cities have to offer, this requires property taxes to be much higher here then cities with a low birth rate (Seattle, Portland, Pittsburgh etc.). Hence, why a majority of Fargo has an ultra-suburban feel also. I am sure by 2010 it will 76th and 88th next with those new sub-divisions and probubly by 2020 it will be 100th and 112th. They just keep on going with those suburban 5 bedroom homes here.

I am just wondering how Fargo can afford TIF and tax abatement packages for all this new construction that the devolopers will require when this city is in the midst of a property tax crisis at the moment. Even the most liberal member of city commision doesnt want any more TIF's.

Its one thing when a medium sized strip-mall opens on 52nd street south where they have thousands of new homes and quite another with these massive capital projects that have been brought up as ideas on this board.

[Midwesterner19]

Originally Posted by NanoBison

In terms of job growth for Bismarck and Grand Forks, I sure hope they continue to grow, because Grand Forks is currently losing population and most likely that trend won’t reverse unless something significantly happens. Bismarck, I see growing further and maintaining prominently it’s position as second largest city in the state. In terms of the people leaving college to go work for oil near Williston… Good for them, I haven’t heard of any yet. The oil out there is too little, too late. If you think it’s going to reverse Williston’s decline in population, think again. It’s merely a Band-Aid on a cut hemorrhaging profusely. In terms of job growth, can you post a link to that data, so we can see exactly what kind of jobs they are? If the 3% job growth is from call centers and customer service centers like Amazon.com or Sykes, or ING, they can keep those lower paying jobs. We have our fair share of those here too, but we also are working more on the high tech jobs and manufacturing jobs that pay quite a bit better.

400 million barrels of proven Oil in the Williston basin and the high price barrel of lately . Thats why this state has a tremendous surplus is because of the oil boom.

The coal jobs in Western North Dakota and The oil jobs in the Williston basin pay far more then manufacturing jobs in Fargo (Fargo does not like the union at all). The average wage in the coal counties is about far above Fargo levels.

Yes, Grand Forks wage scale as a whole I just look up the BEA economic figures they are 23rd lowest in the country, but Fargo is much closer to Grand Forks as a whole then the coal counties or the Williston basin.

From the Bureau of economic analysis average wage per-job: rounded to nearest thousand
-Oliver County (coal county) 45,000
-Fargo/Wahpeton EA 30,000
-Grand Forks EA 27,000

I also read in the paper about how they have a massive shortage of apartments in Williston, Id venture to guess the apartment vacancy rate in Fargo is far far higher then Williston. High apartment absorbtion means high-population growth.

[NanoBison]

Yeah, I've spoken with city engineers and planners. They usually get a smirk on their face because they have 1 or 2 wacky ideas like mine that they love to share with me. The people I SHOULD be talking to, are the city developers. But if I don't have thousands or millions to pour into a project, it's kind of hard to get them to listen to you. Anyways, I do try to get to as many planning and development meetings as I can on my busy schedule. I'm also currently a subscriber to the FMMetroCOG so I can keep on those aspects as well.

I won't disagree with you. Fargo does have high property taxes. I know it's a problem that needs to be addressed A.S.A.P. but I don't think that proposed 1% sales tax is the solution. We don't need to use additional taxes, to cover current taxes. Then again, I think if you go to other cities around the country, the taxes are of course much higher. But the wages are higher as well. I'm not sure what the figures are in terms of ratio to wages/salary and cost of homes/property taxes. Then again, I am a renter, like you are, so it doesn't really affect me all that much. But none of money goes into the tax coffers. I'd have no problem contributing once I purchase a home, but at the same time, I have a nice apartment and don't have to worry about many of the things associated with owning a home (something breaks YOU fix it, mowing lawns, shoveling driveways, heating, plumbing, etc... ).

In terms of Mayor, I hope to god, we don't get someone more conservative who only concentrates on how to lower property taxes. What they need to do, is entice larger corporations to move into town. If we can lure Alien Technologies here, we can lure some other companies as well, especially with the talent that exists in the region. We need to build up the corporate taxes coming into the coffers to offset the residential taxes. But once again, I can currently only offer a voice on the matter. I need to start another company and make some real money. I currently work at the tech park and the wages are excellent, but I'd like to be running something on my own again.

[NanoBison]

Midwesterner, can you post a link to some of these news articles. Truthfully I don't keep covered on news happening outside further west of Bismarck, Grand Forks, or Fargo. It's good to hear that Williston has people moving into it for the oil work. But I don't think the growth will be great enough to save the town from continuing to lose people. What Williston may become is a nice blue collar city heavily vested in the Oil Industry.

On that figure of 400 million barrels. I believe I read a figure somewhere that the U.S. already uses 20 million+ barrels of oil a day? That's 20 days worth of crude. We shouldn't really become too dependent on the new wealth its creating for the state. I would imagine it could disappear in about 10 years. Then again, I know NOTHING about oil/drilling/etc....

While the state is currently experiencing a surplus of money in the coffers, they should build up the electrical grid infrastructure so we can export much larger amounts of electricity to the big cities. Once that infrastructure is in place, I would expect a boom in wind tower developments. We've got more promise in Wind Power in the long term, than in oil for North Dakota.

[F-Misthebest]

Midwesterner19, what is your problem?! If you hate Fargo soo much then why are you posting your "comments" on a thread that talks about the advances the Fargo-Moorhead area is making. You have argued some good points like the tax increases. But Fargo is doing very well for itself and for its size. I will stop using the 243,000 estimate and just use 210,000 for now.210,000 is a fair size especially for a metropolitan area in North Dakota and north western Minnesota! The area is gaining lots of people and yes, there are lots of kinks on Main Ave but, the city of Fargo is going to be landscaping that whole road from the Interstate (29) all the way to 25th Street. That will make this very industrial area look nicer, more appealing to the people who drive downtown from that exit every day. Moorhead is also planning to landscape on all their major roads like Main, 8, 21, and so on.

You also previously said that Macy's was not going to make it in Fargo because of its small population. Well buddy here this. If you didn't already know but Marshall Fields was bought out by Macy's so now all the Marshall Fields stores will be converted into Macy's. In West Acres Marshall Fields is one of our anchor stores and so this summer it will be converted. I talked to a person at Marshall Fields not to long ago and she said this summer is what they were planning on.

It's 52nd Ave not 52nd street. If you want to look important, know your facts.

The main point is that the Fargo-Moorhead area is doing very well getting new businesses, people, and attractions. I agree with NanoBison that we need some new attractions like a water park, a better zoo and so on. I was at the zoo last year and it's not all that bad. They are expanding and proposing many new ideas. At one point they even were proposing a big cat exhibit. I don't know if that is still an idea but it would work. It is really too bad that the zoo doesn't have very much more room to expand. They had to sell some of their land to Gander Mountain and the Fargo Park board (the Ice Rink owners) to get more money. If it was up to me and I owned the zoo I would consider purchasing some land on the east side of 42nd street to expand. You could build a pedestrian underpass under the 42nd street overpass.

Do you remember when Fargo used to have a waterpark. It was right next to I-29 on 17th Ave south where there is just a big empty lot now. There are lots of apartments in that area. If they had held on to the waterpark for just a little bit longer I think it would have worked.

Another thing that could have worked if they held on to it just a little longer was the Treetop Cafe on the top floor of the US Bank building in Moorhead. They just need better management and it would have worked. Just like Coach's and the Red Bear. Well I got food poisoning from their breadsticks so if they had a little better food as well. Now it's the Broken Axe Bar or something. Looks cool, doubt it will make it though.

One last thing. The Holiday Center in Moorhead is constructing a new pad site next to the Wells Fargo. God I hope it's a nice restaurant. Moorhead needs a good chain one and that will encourage tenats to build in the Holiday Center Strip Mall.

[SmileyBoy]

Jeez, it looks like I've been bested by some of you as far as city discussion goes. I don't really have the writing skill to come up with all these ideas and conversations about the city like Nano and Midwesterner and F-Misthebest have done. I just like reading your stuff for now, and trying to get good ideas from all of you. It's nice to know that there are some new forumers aho I could talk about F-M with on this board. You don't know how LONELY I was on here for the past few years since I joined in 2003.

Anyway, I'll contribute to the discussion further once I get a real good idea in my head. Also, if any new news pops up, I'll post it here. I kind of wanted to follow the same template that the Winnipeg forumers used in their development discussions, in that they kept it all into one thread.

[SmileyBoy]

I guess there's one more thing I forgot to mention: There are going to be four new Starbucks opening up here in the next few months: One at the new Town Center at 13th and 25th, one at the new Scheels store, one at the new Crossroads Center at the corner of 13th and 35th, and one at the Holiday Center in Moorhead (along with a new Qdoba Mexican Grill). That will double the number of Starbucks in the city from 4 to 8. I just thought it was kind of interesting, someone told me about this.

[F-Misthebest]

SmileyBoy, did you read in the paper the other day the article about the 19th Ave North Project? I am so glad about that Holiday Center Project! It needs some business. Big Time!!!! About the Starbucks too. Don't forget about the one in Downtown Moorhead that will be built in the future, the Crossing and the Urban Plains Development.

[F-Misthebest]

Originally Posted by Reichert

Fargo is going to have figure out how to reinvent the 13th Avenue district in away completely unique and different from either downtown or the Shoppes at Osgood. I have some ideas:

Some of the retail is going to have to disappear. But here's the rub...I think the area around I-29, I-94, and 13th Avenue is destined to become Fargo's new central business district at some point, anyway. Downtown Fargo's location just isn't very conducive to a modern day CBD because space is tight and it only has Main Avenue and University/10th Street serving it as major road arteries. Why not take out a portion of the 13th Avenue retail, combine it with the West Acres business park, and throw in a few high rises for a good old fashioned business district located conveniently at the corner of the Interstates? Some of the apartments right by West Acres could go, as well.

The Shoppes at Osgood could take a chunk of the retail business away from 13th Avenue, but boy this could be a helluva opportunity for the West Acres area if they play their cards right. A mixed use central business district with residential condos, office high to mid rises and a healthy amount of remaining retail could be something big, and it would located in a spot easily accessible from nearly anywhere in the F-M area.

I understand completely that you think the Shoppes at Osgood will take away from the 13 Ave area but have you seen what's is going into the Shoppes? A Suntana, Jaz Salon, Extreme Pita, and two restaurants. Nothing Special. Maybe, MAYBE, if some good stores go in like abercromie (Abercrombie and Fitch for smaller people, like kids) or Hollister, MAYBE that will take a small portion away. But to compete with that 13 Ave will just have to get more stores like Banana Republic or Brooks Brothers. But Hollister will not go in unless it is a major retail center. The Shoppes at Osgood are not that big. When your talking about them you think that they are the size of the Mall of America (okay that's over exageratting but you know what I mean). Have you even been there? It's not some huge mall at all. It's not that big! Get that through your tiny head!!!! Sorry.

If they build this mall on 52nd Ave South, which I think they are planning to do, it is just going to be competition for the West Acres area. IT WILL NOT WIPE THEM OUT! It will encourage more people to shop here from other farm towns like Arthur, Hawley, Kindred, and Barnesville. Maybe from Grand Forks or Jamestown will come to shop. It may be a hastle for them to come the city to shop so they will move to Fargo to be closer to the shops. All these new shops will make new medium paying jobs, like retail, waiters/waitresses, office jobs. These are jobs more college students will come to get a wonderful education at one of our 3 colleges (NDSU, MSUM, & Concordia) plus Minnesota State Community & Technical College. That will increse the number of college students which will increase the crime a little which will increase the police force which will make new jobs. So all the jobs will make more people come who want to work here and shop here!

In conclusion with this new mall on 52nd it will only make the 13 Ave area strive to compete which won't be so hard because it is not a crappy area at all. There are only a few minor things they would need to change to make it nicer. Like the abandoned K-Mart, that could be torn down or filled with something else and be remodled.

I also just found out that Fargo's annual job growth is 6.42% and the unemployment rate is just over 2%. Here is the link http://web02.bestplaces.net/kip/best...spx?cbsa=22020. The annual job rate is higher then Sioux Falls'. Look at the Signature!

[NanoBison]

On the abandoned K-Mart building on 13th, I just heard from my friend who works at the Gas station next to it that they are planning on turning it into a Burlington Coat Factory after a heavy remodel. So with the development going up across the street, that part, of 13th Ave., should only get better!

One thing that REALLY needs to be done on 13th Ave, is that it needs to be three-laned up until the residential areas heading further into West Fargo. Sometimes on the weekends, especially when something happening in town, that traffic lines on that road are absolutely painful to sit in. They should also make the area in front of the mall 4 lanes, and redo it in concrete, put a nice median in and really spruce up the area with some shrubs and trees.

Here's another idea, not only on 13th, but alot of other streets in town with higher traffic counts. How about some right turn lanes? That way I don't have to worry about getting rear-ended while slowing down for my turn.