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  #381  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 9:42 PM
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I have heard some complaints about baby carrots because they are kinda wasteful and overpriced (just regular carrots cut down to size), but certainly nothing *that* ridiculous!
I've always wondered what they do with the carrot waste left over from the "whittling". Bag o'salad?
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  #382  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 9:54 PM
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I'm pretty sure the rest of the carrots becomes the thin grated-style scraps that get used in salads. Would make no sense to waste it.
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  #383  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 9:56 PM
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For the record, it's a very common signature on teenager social media accounts here in Quebec. So I didn't invent it!
I didn't know that! I'm not very connected to current teen culture at the moment, obviously.

In a SSP Canada context, one can't help but feel you refer to equalization from Ottawa buying your friendship with that line.
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  #384  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2018, 10:14 PM
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LOL. This thread has taken an interesting turn from discussing "Trying to Erase John A. MacDonald from History" to Baby Carrots.
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  #385  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2018, 1:50 PM
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I didn't know that! I'm not very connected to current teen culture at the moment, obviously.

In a SSP Canada context, one can't help but feel you refer to equalization from Ottawa buying your friendship with that line.
HAHA! That's great. I didn't even think of that.
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  #386  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2018, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
I have heard some complaints about baby carrots because they are kinda wasteful and overpriced (just regular carrots cut down to size), but certainly nothing *that* ridiculous!

The baby carrot came from the refusal of supermarkets to accept "ugly" carrots. So until the creation of "baby carrots" these rejected carrots were either tossed out or turned into animal feed.

Listen to this episode of Terry O'Reilly's "Under the Influence". Which oddly just came out the other day.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/undertheinfl...cado-1.4513613
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  #387  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2018, 5:22 PM
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We'll also likely be looked upon very harshly for our unwillingness to find a lasting solution to the global problem of hunger. Especially since a solution is definitely within our grasp, but we're collectively unwilling to sacrifice even a smidgen of comfort or even forgo version 7 of the latest gadget and settle for version 6, in order to prevent millions from dying from malnutrition or starvation every year.
Yes although a lot of problems like this that are hard to solve require collective action and when it comes to the worst ones we are trapped in a giant prisoner's dilemma. Humans are often trapped in larger systems that force them to make decisions that are harmful at a societal level to achieve positive personal outcomes. This is why capitalism causes so many bad things to happen and it's why people were murdering each other in the 1700's.

You can either blame the people trapped inside these systems for not becoming martyrs or you can try to understand the forces at play. If I had to bet though I would bet that you are correct and 200 years from now there will still be people who don't understand this dynamic and choose the first option.

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I think that our overall treatment of the poor, especially children and the elderly, will be shocking to people in the future.
I think our criminal justice system will stand out as being barbaric. It operates on a large scale, it's cruel, and it's irrational and ineffective.

I also think the free market capitalist system we have today will look really silly in the future, if we continue to progress. It might even be replaced with something more closely resembling the never-fully-realized 1950's Soviet dream command economy.
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  #388  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2018, 5:42 PM
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I think our criminal justice system will stand out as being barbaric. It operates on a large scale, it's cruel, and it's irrational and ineffective.

I also think the free market capitalist system we have today will look really silly in the future, if we continue to progress. It might even be replaced with something more closely resembling the never-fully-realized 1950's Soviet dream command economy.
I confidently predict that our predictions about what will look silly in the future will look silly in the future.

What the future thinks of us will probably have to do with something that we're barely aware of or which (to our minds, if they could jump into that future) is being completely misunderstood or misconstrued by the future people, likely for the political purposes of their own time.
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  #389  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2018, 5:59 PM
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I confidently predict that our predictions about what will look silly in the future will look silly in the future.

What the future thinks of us will probably have to do with something that we're barely aware of or which (to our minds, if they could jump into that future) is being completely misunderstood or misconstrued by the future people, likely for the political purposes of their own time.
Donald Rumsfeld correctly predicted all of this in 2002 with his famous known knowns (or unknown unknowns? known unknowns?) speech.

I agree that there will be new concepts and ways of looking at the world that will be completely novel, and that we have blind spots today that will disappear in the future. These factors will invalidate our predictions in many areas. But I have also noticed how the best thinkers of past generations have often made good predictions or come up with models that turned out to be ahead of their time, even if they were unpopular back then. A lot of our progressive ideas today were rare as far as the general population goes in 1920 but were fairly popular among more educated people.

Some of this is selection bias but I don't think it is all selection bias.

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  #390  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 6:04 PM
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A little tidbit in the news today, Sherbrooke decided its Amherst Street was here to stay. (I didn't even need to lift a finger as a citizen opposed to name changes, they did it all without me.)
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  #391  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2018, 3:58 PM
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So... they did it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...elps-1.4782065

One down and... how many to go?
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  #392  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2018, 4:14 PM
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Considering the location in the country/the significance that this statue would have on the populations of Indigenous there, I can see why they took it down....but I'm cautious about this. It doesn't sound like the right decision IMO.
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  #393  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2018, 4:52 PM
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What I don't understand is what the end goal is with gestures like this. It reminds me of my friends who boycott Canada Day and shame those who celebrate because they're celebrating the colonization of indigenous people.

And I'm sympathetic to that point of view, I just don't understand how it's supposed to evolve practically. We can tear down the statues, turn Canada Day into a day of mourning, and so on, but I can't connect this delegitimization of the Canadian state with overall reconciliation progress. Because as far as I know, nobody's proposing the retraction of the Canadian state. So if that's the case, we're trying to remove the symbols but not the institutions - in a way, that seems more like a settler attempt at feeling better about themselves than about meaningful societal change.
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  #394  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2018, 5:12 PM
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And I'm sympathetic to that point of view, I just don't understand how it's supposed to evolve practically. We can tear down the statues, turn Canada Day into a day of mourning, and so on, but I can't connect this delegitimization of the Canadian state with overall reconciliation progress. Because as far as I know, nobody's proposing the retraction of the Canadian state. So if that's the case, we're trying to remove the symbols but not the institutions - in a way, that seems more like a settler attempt at feeling better about themselves than about meaningful societal change.
I think it's a blend of practical strategy with real goals, human psychology that sometimes causes people to become unhinged, and game theory that paints people into corners and leads to bizarre and unfair outcomes.

I was recently at a competition full of contestants and audience members who lean toward the progressive end of the spectrum. I sat through multiple rants about how white privilege and cisgender privilege are oppressive and how the awards must finallly be opened up to women, people of colour, and transgender individuals. There were a handful of awards and 100% of them went to women, people of colour, and transgender individuals. This community is maybe 60% male and cisgender males won 0 awards. The past winners got up too and there were transgender and POC winners going back 15 years. The "catchment" area for this competition is over 80% white, so the reality is that most people going to see this are likely to be white even if there is no bias encouraging or discouraging people of one skin colour or another to attend.

Afterward I was talking with some people about a Pride society in Canada. They said they got in a lot of heat because there were no people of colour on the board. But they also said they struggled to even get people who were willing to do the work required to be on the board (people not on these boards often think of them as prestige positions but they are more like mini unpaid jobs). They would take anybody who wants to join regardless of skin colour. When they told this to the naysayers, the naysayers said, well, people of colour just don't feel safe being in a room full of white people and don't feel like they'd be listened to, so that's why they don't bother. What can you say to this?
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  #395  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2018, 5:29 PM
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I think it's a blend of practical strategy with real goals, human psychology that sometimes causes people to become unhinged, and game theory that paints people into corners and leads to bizarre and unfair outcomes.

I was recently at a competition full of contestants and audience members who lean toward the progressive end of the spectrum. I sat through multiple rants about how white privilege and cisgender privilege are oppressive and how the awards must finallly be opened up to women, people of colour, and transgender individuals. There were a handful of awards and 100% of them went to women, people of colour, and transgender individuals. This community is maybe 60% male and cisgender males won 0 awards. The past winners got up too and there were transgender and POC winners going back 15 years. The "catchment" area for this competition is over 80% white, so the reality is that most people going to see this are likely to be white even if there is no bias encouraging or discouraging people of one skin colour or another to attend.

Afterward I was talking with some people about a Pride society in Canada. They said they got in a lot of heat because there were no people of colour on the board. But they also said they struggled to even get people who were willing to do the work required to be on the board (people not on these boards often think of them as prestige positions but they are more like mini unpaid jobs). They would take anybody who wants to join regardless of skin colour. When they told this to the naysayers, the naysayers said, well, people of colour just don't feel safe being in a room full of white people and don't feel like they'd be listened to, so that's why they don't bother. What can you say to this?
I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
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  #396  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2018, 5:40 PM
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First Nations issues have the floor at this point in time and they will be heard. Get used to all sorts of symbols being changed in the name of reconciliation.

I'm not First Nation/Metis/Inuit so I have no idea how they feel about this. But if I was, I'd be spending my energy on fixing water/housing and employment before wasting any time on statue about a dead white guy.
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  #397  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2018, 5:42 PM
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I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
As an older white straight male, I don't volunteer for committees or boards because I firmly believe that if any trouble arises, I would be the first person blamed because of my supposed privilege. I don't want to be held up as a symbol of oppressive patriarchy and to have people marching in front of my house.

It just isn't worth the trouble.
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  #398  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2018, 5:43 PM
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When people demand the removal of Sir John A's name or statues, we should remember that if he had not set the forces to form this country, there would have been a good chance that the United States would have absorbed the remaining British colonies in North America especially British Columbia. Would the indigenous populations been better off being part of the United States? Would Quebecois be better off if they had become part of the United States? My understanding is that there were residential schools also south of the border. It was not unique to Canada.


No matter what, the indigenous tribal system was doomed. There was an opportunity to form an indigenous country early in the 19th century but the tribes were unable to cooperate enough to develop a stable government to establish an alternate society to the United States, when it was still a weak fledgeling country.


Blame can be spread very widely in so many contexts. Blame can also be a mirror. Nobody is without fault.


We need to look at the bigger picture and even more importantly, we should be looking to the future and making our society better, rather than spending too much on the past that cannot be changed. Why are we wasting so much energy on debatable and complex historical issues?


By all means, we should review history to gain a better understanding of what actually happened, but we do ourselves a great disservice if we want to rewrite history through a politically correct prism. The 18th and 19th centuries were full of conflict. There were winners and losers. It was the reality of the day. We shouldn't whitewash that reality. We cannot change it. How can the winners ever apologize to the losers? It can never be enough.


When we look at the evils of residential schools, we also have to understand the nature of society in those days. Assimilation was considered a good thing. It had to be in order to form a cohesive new country, with immigrants coming from at least many parts of Europe where many different languages were spoken. The foundation of the new country had to have a stable culture and language. It has in long run given us the ability to develop the very inclusive and diverse society of today. One thing has not changed since those 19th century decisions, education is the path forward for everybody including indigenous peoples. Education in itself was never wrong. This will give them the knowledge and expertise they need to build better communities.

Assessing blame is always the easy way out. It is much easier to remove a statue, instead of eliminating poverty and squalor.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Aug 13, 2018 at 6:11 PM.
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  #399  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2018, 5:58 PM
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I think it's a blend of practical strategy with real goals, human psychology that sometimes causes people to become unhinged, and game theory that paints people into corners and leads to bizarre and unfair outcomes.

I was recently at a competition full of contestants and audience members who lean toward the progressive end of the spectrum. I sat through multiple rants about how white privilege and cisgender privilege are oppressive and how the awards must finallly be opened up to women, people of colour, and transgender individuals. There were a handful of awards and 100% of them went to women, people of colour, and transgender individuals. This community is maybe 60% male and cisgender males won 0 awards. The past winners got up too and there were transgender and POC winners going back 15 years. The "catchment" area for this competition is over 80% white, so the reality is that most people going to see this are likely to be white even if there is no bias encouraging or discouraging people of one skin colour or another to attend.

Afterward I was talking with some people about a Pride society in Canada. They said they got in a lot of heat because there were no people of colour on the board. But they also said they struggled to even get people who were willing to do the work required to be on the board (people not on these boards often think of them as prestige positions but they are more like mini unpaid jobs). They would take anybody who wants to join regardless of skin colour. When they told this to the naysayers, the naysayers said, well, people of colour just don't feel safe being in a room full of white people and don't feel like they'd be listened to, so that's why they don't bother. What can you say to this?
Yeah it's a very complex topic overall. I'm very much familiar with that type of outlook and struggle to fully grasp it myself. As in, I get the push for greater recognition of people's diversity, but there are just so many drawbacks to the strategies being employed.

Take your award example: if all the winners were white men, then I think that creates an implicit bias of white men are winners, others are not. Consistent recognition of different people is important in strengthening ties and weakening the categorization and differences of our identities as people. At least in the current moment where these differences are so salient; nobody would care if no blue-eyed or redheaded people won an award. Of course, provided that all the eventual award-winners actually did something helpful.

But something I said there is something that is often disagreed with by social progressives - they say we shouldn't look to eliminate diversity, we should seek to embrace it. But I just don't see this as possible. I've mentioned this a million times before, but when groups in a category start strengthening their identities, other groups will follow. As in, it's not just black people or women that will feel more pride in their identities - white people and men will too. And it seems to me like that's exactly what social progressives are trying to quell.

I'm always wary of projecting, but I feel like this growing focus on identity is tiring people out, and disenfranchises them from broader movements. I'm sure many of us have anecdotal stories of friends saying they support stronger social programs, but they're unsure about voting for the Liberals again because they're tired of the identity politics. As such, these efforts may actually serve to undermine the vehicles that may help push their message forward into action.

Anyway, to tie this back to John A. McDonald, I think the removal of the statue and other similar gestures will be welcomed by some and antagonize others, and turn reconciliation into a more combative affair. And I do understand why his statue may be problematic. However the "you are wrong it needs to go" strategy may create an equal amount of blow-back as support.

In the US, it seems like on social issues groups exaggerate the others' positions and adopt a touch more extreme reaction, which results in a little more of an extreme reaction from the other side, until eventually you have people that think borders are an outdated concept arguing with people who actually identify as Nazis. An initial, more serious conversation about people's grievances is likely to lead to more positive results overall than making it combative. I think back to Acajack's example of the gay community's push for equality in these words.
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  #400  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2018, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
As an older white straight male, I don't volunteer for committees or boards because I firmly believe that if any trouble arises, I would be the first person blamed because of my supposed privilege. I don't want to be held up as a symbol of oppressive patriarchy and to have people marching in front of my house.

It just isn't worth the trouble.
Is this serious or sarcasm? I honestly can't tell.

Incidentally, I am a middle aged, white straight male and I am a member on several non-profit boards. So far, I've managed to avoid the pitchforks and torches treatment. Phew!
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