HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #12721  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 2:16 AM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is online now
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 19,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
This feeling that there is "good news" on paper spread by the ruling class, and an alternate reality that most people face (and grin and bear) seems eerily like the Soviet Union around the late 1970s.
At the end of the day it is mostly the perceived change in living standards that matters. Metrics like income, GDP, and inflation are flawed and easily gamed if the goal is to look good on paper. For example, CPI is used as a measure of inflation but housing prices mostly aren't included in that. There is a good rationale behind that but then again the fact is that if you don't own a house and your income goes up by 2% but houses go up by 200% it has an impact. GDP is even worse than this.

In Vancouver it feels like everything is stacked against middle/working class and younger people. Most recent government policy has served to inflate asset prices and suppress the value of labour. And the city just isn't building enough infrastructure. Toronto hasn't been building enough either. I'm not sure any growing Canadian cities are. My commute just crosses a small fraction of Vancouver's urban core but it takes about as long as a commute from an exurban McMansion would have in the 80's or 90's. There is talk of congestion charges here. I could see us paying London-style congestion charges to drive through low density detached housing neighbourhoods with crappy transit service (and no Uber/Lyft ridesharing to fill in the gaps).

I know a lot of younger people in their 20's and 30's and most of them have a lower living standard than their parents did at the same age. The gap is not subtle. The most common scenario is parents who had secure middle class jobs and a house, car(s), and kids by the time they were 30. Their 30-year-old children are now working contract jobs and renting apartments, may not even have a driver's license, and laugh at the idea of having kids of their own. And everyone here knows middle age people who were kind of shiftless in their youth but accidentally became a millionaire. The highest-paid younger professionals I know have living standards somewhere south of the average middle aged Burnaby homeowner without post secondary.

Vancouver's worse than other parts of Canada of course but in a lot of ways I think the rest of the country will end up with a similar fate unless something changes.
__________________
flickr
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12722  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 3:13 AM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is online now
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Tropic of Sir Galahad
Posts: 31,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Doug and the Slugs... And Gilles Duceppe (Bib Fortuna) as the trusted advisor?

skyrock
__________________
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere.Elie Wiesel
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12723  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 3:28 AM
cyeg66's Avatar
cyeg66 cyeg66 is offline
Centrist to the core.
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: My wife's house.
Posts: 1,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post

skyrock
Gawddamn, that's funny. I knew all along Jabba's right hand man looked familiar. Just never recognized Gilles without his hair net, I guess.
__________________
...a little Shih Tzu stew? Don't mind if I do...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12724  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 3:36 AM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is online now
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Tropic of Sir Galahad
Posts: 31,375
__________________
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere.Elie Wiesel
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12725  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 2:21 PM
O-tacular's Avatar
O-tacular O-tacular is offline
Fake News
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Calgary
Posts: 15,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Doug and the Slugs... And Gilles Duceppe (Bib Fortuna) as the trusted advisor?

skyrock


Who would be Salacious Crumb?
__________________
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire

https://clockzillakingoflaval.tumblr.com
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12726  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 2:25 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is online now
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Tropic of Sir Galahad
Posts: 31,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post


Who would be Salacious Crumb?
maybe Rex Murphy?
__________________
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere.Elie Wiesel
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12727  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 3:55 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Think about Winnipeg.
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I know a lot of younger people in their 20's and 30's and most of them have a lower living standard than their parents did at the same age. The gap is not subtle. The most common scenario is parents who had secure middle class jobs and a house, car(s), and kids by the time they were 30. Their 30-year-old children are now working contract jobs and renting apartments, may not even have a driver's license, and laugh at the idea of having kids of their own. And everyone here knows middle age people who were kind of shiftless in their youth but accidentally became a millionaire. The highest-paid younger professionals I know have living standards somewhere south of the average middle aged Burnaby homeowner without post secondary.

Vancouver's worse than other parts of Canada of course but in a lot of ways I think the rest of the country will end up with a similar fate unless something changes.
There are also young people in depressed former mining towns whose standard of living declined because the mine shut down and there is no longer a comfortable salaried position waiting for them after high school as there was for their parents and grandparents.

The difference with them, of course, is that most of the depressed mining town residents will read the writing on the wall and go to one of the many other towns or cities not faced with this problem.

As with the former mining town resident who refuses to leave and just complains about being unable to find a decent job, I'm just not feeling a lot of sympathy for people who insist on remaining in Vancouver and continue to complain about their declining standard of living. Most parts of the country are not affected by what you described in your post.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12728  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 4:46 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 32,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
A family of titans...



I may be off-base here but it seems to me that the Fords might be a classic example of how a lot of wealthy but rube-ish people come from much classier places than their current persona leads you to think. (Not saying the forebears in the image above were super-classy, but perhaps moreso than their kids and grandkids are...)

It's certainly food-for-thought for any parents of young children today whose situation lends itself to raising "silver spoon" type kids.
__________________
SSP Canada's Most Interesting Man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12729  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 4:52 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is online now
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 19,376
It is not true that this issue only affects Vancouver. The economic problems are just more acute here.


Source
__________________
flickr
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12730  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 4:54 PM
Echoes's Avatar
Echoes Echoes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Posts: 3,338
^ That family tree gives me the feeling of a Royal Tenenbaums-like Wes Anderson story, but about the Ford brood.

Although the story might be better as a Coen brothers film: unsympathetic, idiot characters in over their heads, but with darker and more violent undertones than an Anderson flick.
__________________
SASKATOON PHOTO TOURS
2013: [Part I] [Part II] | [2014] | [2016]
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12731  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 5:12 PM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Vancouver/[Winnipeg]
Posts: 4,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
There are also young people in depressed former mining towns whose standard of living declined because the mine shut down and there is no longer a comfortable salaried position waiting for them after high school as there was for their parents and grandparents.

The difference with them, of course, is that most of the depressed mining town residents will read the writing on the wall and go to one of the many other towns or cities not faced with this problem.

As with the former mining town resident who refuses to leave and just complains about being unable to find a decent job, I'm just not feeling a lot of sympathy for people who insist on remaining in Vancouver and continue to complain about their declining standard of living. Most parts of the country are not affected by what you described in your post.
It's one thing when a mine runs out of ore/an economy is so booming (Seattle, San Francisco) that regular people have a hard time making ends meet. It's another when the challenges are entirely the result of terrible government decisions. I wouldn't be complaining if Vancouver's affordability concerns were the result of natural demand and purchasing capacity. They're not.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12732  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 5:23 PM
Proof Sheet Proof Sheet is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I may be off-base here but it seems to me that the Fords might be a classic example of how a lot of wealthy but rube-ish people come from much classier places than their current persona leads you to think. (Not saying the forebears in the image above were super-classy, but perhaps moreso than their kids and grandkids are...)

It's certainly food-for-thought for any parents of young children today whose situation lends itself to raising "silver spoon" type kids.
Agreed. Randy Ford is the ultimate example of this. I get the impression that Rob/Doug/Randy/Cathy's parents worked hard to get where they were and the kids seemed to take advantage of it. Hard to believe that a middle upper class family like this with 4 kids none of which finished post secondary education. I think Rob went to Carleton for 1 term or maybe 1 year.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...h_history.html
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12733  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 5:23 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Think about Winnipeg.
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
It is not true that this issue only affects Vancouver. The economic problems are just more acute here.


Source
But there is a difference between housing prices merely increasing and housing prices skyrocketing to the point of being largely unattainable to all but the wealthy. You can still be a relatively low wage earner and have a decent house in a decent neighbourhood throughout most of the country.

I mean, you can buy this nice little house here on not much more than fast food wages. Saving the down payment for a first home would be the hard part of course, but the same can be said for just about anyone outside of the top band of income earners.

Even if other cities see housing price increases, there is nothing to suggest that a Vancouver-style price explosion or even something that approaches it will become common in other parts of Canada.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12734  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 5:37 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 32,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
^ That family tree gives me the feeling of a Royal Tenenbaums-like Wes Anderson story, but about the Ford brood.

Although the story might be better as a Coen brothers film: unsympathetic, idiot characters in over their heads, but with darker and more violent undertones than an Anderson flick.
Thanks for reminding me that I really should see that movie!
__________________
SSP Canada's Most Interesting Man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12735  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 5:57 PM
niwell's Avatar
niwell niwell is offline
sick transit, gloria
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Brockton Village, Toronto
Posts: 7,859
My favourite part of the Ford family tree is Mikey. He literally changed his last name to Ford so he could get elected as a school trustee under the Ford name.

By all accounts he was actually not too bad at that job and fairly invested... Now that he's Councillor in Rob's former seat hasn't really done anything except vote against the rest of Council on virtually everything. Part of me feels kind of sorry for him as it seems he was forced into this path. But then again he's making a Councillor's salary on the sole qualification of a last name.
__________________
Check out my pics of Johannesburg
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12736  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 6:18 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 32,211
It's probably only a small minority of the wealthy who do this (and if we're honest, some of them can't), but I actually know a few people whose parents never really told them how wealthy they were. They knew they were well-off, but not that well-off.

Precisely so that the kids didn't end up like some of those you-know-whos.

In all the cases I am aware of - it worked.
__________________
SSP Canada's Most Interesting Man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12737  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 6:57 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is online now
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 19,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
But there is a difference between housing prices merely increasing and housing prices skyrocketing to the point of being largely unattainable to all but the wealthy. You can still be a relatively low wage earner and have a decent house in a decent neighbourhood throughout most of the country.
Sure, there is a difference. But the low wage earners aren't doing very well in either case (somewhat poorly or catastrophically poorly), and this is in a time when we are supposedly experiencing productivity growth that should make everyone better off over time. Earlier in the 20th century, the equivalent of fast food workers got better off over time in cities like Winnipeg. Something has changed.

The existence of alternatives doesn't mean that there aren't economic problems worth talking about. And I don't know why you wouldn't have sympathy for those former coal mining towns. The grim reality is that while some people were able to retrain and move away, many more were trapped and have seen their living standards plummet. These areas are ground zero for the current opioid crisis. They still have millions of inhabitants.

Let's imagine that Manitoba implemented a 100% income tax for people whose last name starts with "M". It is revenue neutral and the money goes to people whose last name starts with "N". It is easy to get around; you could change your name or you could move to Saskatchewan and keep your name. If this happened, would the existence of these alternatives make criticisms of the tax invalid? Would you have no sympathy for the "M" people?
__________________
flickr
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12738  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 7:10 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lévis, QC
Posts: 18,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by niwell View Post
But then again he's making a Councillor's salary on the sole qualification of a last name.
Isn't a Federal PM's salary even higher? If so I know a worse offender than him!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12739  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 7:18 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lévis, QC
Posts: 18,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
It is not true that this issue only affects Vancouver. The economic problems are just more acute here.


Source
Can't conclude anything from just that, though.

Maybe "you're right" and $88,553 inflation-adjusted to today would be the normal price while $268,382 is completely nuts.

But the reverse is possible too: $88k was an aberration and the natural correction to a $268k which is perfectly in line with other cost of living metrics was pretty much inevitable.

You can see an example of the latter in FL from 2012 to 2018. The current "crazy" prices (about 3x-4x what they used to be a few years ago) are in fact much more normal compared to wages and rents and the costs of items and materials. It's almost certain in retrospect that the "temporarily out of whack" period was the 2009-2014 dip where property was dirt cheap and incredibly affordable to anyone, not the current level.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12740  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 7:21 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Think about Winnipeg.
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,708
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Sure, there is a difference. But the low wage earners aren't doing very well in either case (somewhat poorly or catastrophically poorly), and this is in a time when we are supposedly experiencing productivity growth that should make everyone better off over time. Earlier in the 20th century, the equivalent of fast food workers got better off over time in cities like Winnipeg. Something has changed.

The existence of alternatives doesn't mean that there aren't economic problems worth talking about. And I don't know why you wouldn't have sympathy for those former coal mining towns. The grim reality is that while some people were able to retrain and move away, many more were trapped and have seen their living standards plummet. These areas are ground zero for the current opioid crisis. They still have millions of inhabitants.

Let's imagine that Manitoba implemented a 100% income tax for people whose last name starts with "M". It is revenue neutral and the money goes to people whose last name starts with "N". It is easy to get around; you could change your name or you could move to Saskatchewan and keep your name. If this happened, would the existence of these alternatives make criticisms of the tax invalid? Would you have no sympathy for the "M" people?
Certainly I sympathize with the plight of people in economically depressed communities. But if you had people continuing to stream into the old coal mining town knowing full well that finding gainful employment is a huge challenge for the people already there, then I'd say I'd be a little less sympathetic. I'd have to ask how they didn't know what they were getting into when they went to the effort of moving there.

I think that the unequal distribution of wealth in North America is a big problem and one that poses a looming threat to social stability. But Vancouver is such an outlier that even if you attempted to address those problems at a national level, the housing market there would still be out of reach to large swaths of the population. Boosting the wages retail cashiers and fast food workers to 20 bucks an hour plus benefits still won't change the fundamentals there.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:52 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.