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  #17221  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 5:20 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnIII View Post
The topic of the Broad Street Line going to the Navy Yard came up; as well as the justified reason for extending it and something came to mind.

Though I doubt our ideas mean much of anything I was wondering; if we justified the costs of extending the Broad Street Line; would it assist in having the extension built?

The Broad and Patterson Station is double decker station; the lower level is only used for major sporting events; however if the lower level were used to extend the Broad Street into the Navy Yard with a station at Kitty Hawk Avenue and then ran it under the Delaware River to Red Bank, New Jersey up Red Bank Avenue to Woodbury, New Jersey; it could open an area of New Jersey to mass transit that hasn't seen any direct connection to the city since the Navy Yard Ferry brought workers to the city years ago.

Extending the Broad Street Line to New Jersey does a few things; the lower level of the Broad and Patterson Station already has a depth below ground that may save costs in digging such a tunnel; it would reduce traffic from New Jersey over the Walt Whitman Bridge; it gives access to the Navy Yard; and brings riders into the city that has a proven record.

so are you suggesting only a line from Jersey to AT&T (both terminate there?)


a tunnel under the river would add huge costs and all in NJ is new infrastructure, I don't see SEPTA or PA funding maybe PATCO

I personally struggle with the cost vs use/value profile on extending HR
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  #17222  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 5:39 PM
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kidphilly View Post
so are you suggesting only a line from Jersey to AT&T (both terminate there?)


a tunnel under the river would add huge costs and all in NJ is new infrastructure, I don't see SEPTA or PA funding maybe PATCO

I personally struggle with the cost vs use/value profile on extending HR
I believe the route he's suggesting was part of the original 1919 subway plan. You are right in saying that it would be very expensive, but I believe that if SEPTA could prove that the ridership would be justified, they could snag a nice big grant from the federal or state government (less so state. Harrisburg seems to hate SEPTA).
Because the lower level of Pattison is deep, I wonder if this would help with the costs of tunneling below the Deleware?
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  #17223  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 5:44 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
I believe the route he's suggesting was part of the original 1919 subway plan. You are right in saying that it would be very expensive, but I believe that if SEPTA could prove that the ridership would be justified, they could snag a nice big grant from the federal or state government (less so state. Harrisburg seems to hate SEPTA).
Because the lower level of Pattison is deep, I wonder if this would help with the costs of tunneling below the Deleware?
Wouldn't that be redundant to this:
http://www.glassborocamdenline.com/

Anyway, I'd rather see them do something like extend PATCO from 18th and Rittenhouse, down Gray's ferry and "hop" on the south philly high line @ washington ave. down to the navy yard. Since we're playing make-believe
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  #17224  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 5:56 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
I believe the route he's suggesting was part of the original 1919 subway plan. You are right in saying that it would be very expensive, but I believe that if SEPTA could prove that the ridership would be justified, they could snag a nice big grant from the federal or state government (less so state. Harrisburg seems to hate SEPTA).
Because the lower level of Pattison is deep, I wonder if this would help with the costs of tunneling below the Deleware?
best I can tell they haven't used the lower concourse since the 90s, not sure that matters

it doesn't get used for large events today


as a side note AT&T has the largest crush load capacity of any HR station in the US when upper and lower are used. I believe by design can load 40K people in 30 minutes
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  #17225  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 6:02 PM
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
Wouldn't that be redundant to this:
http://www.glassborocamdenline.com/

Anyway, I'd rather see them do something like extend PATCO from 18th and Rittenhouse, down Gray's ferry and "hop" on the south philly high line @ washington ave. down to the navy yard. Since we're playing make-believe
Well, to address your first point, yes, but this is more realistic than that IMO simply because it uses already existing infrastructure, and connects directly to Philly. How many people do you know from Glassboro that want to go to Camden for a day?

Secondly, I think the best expansions for SEPTA would be the BSL extending up the boulevard, and the originally proposed Roxborough line that would loop around the city's four squares using the existing Arch, 10th, and Locust st subways, and then head up to the Art museum. Then it was supposed to go up the banks of the Schuylkill, hitting Manayunk and Roxborough.
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  #17226  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 6:05 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
Wouldn't that be redundant to this:
http://www.glassborocamdenline.com/

Anyway, I'd rather see them do something like extend PATCO from 18th and Rittenhouse, down Gray's ferry and "hop" on the south philly high line @ washington ave. down to the navy yard. Since we're playing make-believe
yes I think something using 25th street ROW (I say road level) and connecting at AT&T and into the NY is better bang for the buck


From 25th could use streets to get into UC city and to 30th (on the under side of 31st street) with something like this, likely not self driven


Could also link with DE avenue plans (again BRT steroids) also Washington could have a cross line and be better developed and this would be far more scalable and valuable

If they want the NJ side (use dedicated lanes on the Walt or Ben Franklin) to extend the use into Jersey

https://www.citylab.com/transportati...-a-bus/545189/
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  #17227  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 6:56 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
Well, to address your first point, yes, but this is more realistic than that IMO simply because it uses already existing infrastructure, and connects directly to Philly. How many people do you know from Glassboro that want to go to Camden for a day?

Secondly, I think the best expansions for SEPTA would be the BSL extending up the boulevard, and the originally proposed Roxborough line that would loop around the city's four squares using the existing Arch, 10th, and Locust st subways, and then head up to the Art museum. Then it was supposed to go up the banks of the Schuylkill, hitting Manayunk and Roxborough.
I thought the tracks are already there for the Gassboro line. I think the idea is that they transfer onto PATCO into Philly (if they don't want to stay in Camden), although it would make more sense as a one-seat ride. I guess the tunnel would be more direct, but I’d be surprised if it was more cost-efficient. What's the 1919 plan?

I always thought the center city loop idea was interesting. I wonder if there's a way to use the city branch tunnel/Broad-Ridge Spur to make it more realistic.
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  #17228  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 7:09 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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Originally Posted by Kidphilly View Post
yes I think something using 25th street ROW (I say road level) and connecting at AT&T and into the NY is better bang for the buck


From 25th could use streets to get into UC city and to 30th (on the under side of 31st street) with something like this, likely not self driven


Could also link with DE avenue plans (again BRT steroids) also Washington could have a cross line and be better developed and this would be far more scalable and valuable

If they want the NJ side (use dedicated lanes on the Walt or Ben Franklin) to extend the use into Jersey

https://www.citylab.com/transportati...-a-bus/545189/
I saw something about these trackless trains recently. Interesting idea, but 43 mph seems pretty slow for rapid transit. I'm sure that figure will increase though. And you don't need to pay for track/electric lines. Just the ROW (unless you're sharing the street, which seems like a bad idea) and stations.

edit: actually, I've seen a few comparisons of costs of road construction vs track that is in favor of track. I wonder what the truth is. Also, I wonder what's better in snow/rain scenarios.
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  #17229  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 8:09 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
I saw something about these trackless trains recently. Interesting idea, but 43 mph seems pretty slow for rapid transit. I'm sure that figure will increase though. And you don't need to pay for track/electric lines. Just the ROW (unless you're sharing the street, which seems like a bad idea) and stations.

edit: actually, I've seen a few comparisons of costs of road construction vs track that is in favor of track. I wonder what the truth is. Also, I wonder what's better in snow/rain scenarios.
I would see this a hybrid, using some dedicated row already available and some street level with better signal control

in terms of the 43 mph -potentially the motor and/or configuration

with decent headways these could be double articulated which I would think could get at least to 60 mph (only needed if say extending into NJ as dedicated row lanes on the highways. In the city itself, 43 is more than enough

also this could in theory use the city branch (maybe even the tunnel under Aikins oval) and could use the street below the 25th street viaduct, median of DE ave, 31st street lower section near 30th street (integrated as a stop with all other forms) and could have dedicated row on the railyard level under any Amtrak build out

if I really wanted to get dreamy any Wash Ave route could have a submerged link to Federal BSL (also avoids then a tied up intersection)

it could in theory even use ROW under 95 from Washington south
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  #17230  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 8:26 PM
JurassicPhilly JurassicPhilly is offline
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I'd love to see a 700' + building on North Broad. It would totally redefine the skyline and bring some great symmetry to the view from the Art Museum steps.
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  #17231  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2018, 10:56 PM
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TechTalkGuy TechTalkGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by JurassicPhilly View Post
I'd love to see a 700' + building on North Broad. It would totally redefine the skyline and bring some great symmetry to the view from the Art Museum steps.
Your idea makes perfect sense!
Having a new neighborhood of skyscrapers up to Spring Garden Street would work!

You could also have some supertall towers to the east stretching to I95 as well.
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  #17232  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 12:07 AM
JurassicPhilly JurassicPhilly is offline
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Originally Posted by TechTalkGuy View Post
Your idea makes perfect sense!
Having a new neighborhood of skyscrapers up to Spring Garden Street would work!

You could also have some supertall towers to the east stretching to I95 as well.
Yeah I'd almost rather see a skyscraper on North Broad than on Market East, though I know that opinion may get me tarred and feathered....
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  #17233  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 12:56 AM
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
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Yeah I'd almost rather see a skyscraper on North Broad than on Market East, though I know that opinion may get me tarred and feathered....
I highly agree. North Broad development needs a shot of steroids.
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  #17234  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 1:38 AM
JurassicPhilly JurassicPhilly is offline
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
I highly agree. North Broad development needs a shot of steroids.
Can you imagine how awesome something like the Bell Atlantic tower or Liberty 1 would look on North Broad? It would transform the city. As for Market East, I've always thought a formal garden - like a mini Longwood - would be preferable to skyscrapers. Call it like Independence Garden or something. It would be world famous! But I know it's impossible given the availability, cost etc.
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  #17235  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 3:37 AM
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R5Ryder R5Ryder is offline
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Originally Posted by Kidphilly View Post
best I can tell they haven't used the lower concourse since the 90s, not sure that matters

it doesn't get used for large events today


as a side note AT&T has the largest crush load capacity of any HR station in the US when upper and lower are used. I believe by design can load 40K people in 30 minutes
I’ve never seen the lower ones used, and I’ve gone to roughly 6 million events down there since late 90s.

I don’t even know how you would access the lower concourse, or how the trains even use both it and the upper -wouldn’t the lower have to merge with the same tracks the upper is using?
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  #17236  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 1:13 PM
nimshady nimshady is offline
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I was at the Eagles vs Cowboys game this year around new years and they used the lower concourse going to the game but not leaving the game.
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  #17237  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 1:41 PM
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Urbanthusiat Urbanthusiat is offline
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We reeeeaally need to find a way to get the transportation thread pinned to the city compilation page. I’d love to have a space dedicated to talking about transportation issues that is easily accessed via the main page people visit.
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  #17238  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 2:14 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat View Post
We reeeeaally need to find a way to get the transportation thread pinned to the city compilation page. I’d love to have a space dedicated to talking about transportation issues that is easily accessed via the main page people visit.
Is there a region tag setting or something in the forum settings that the moderators have access to?
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  #17239  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 2:33 PM
JohnIII JohnIII is offline
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
I believe the route he's suggesting was part of the original 1919 subway plan. You are right in saying that it would be very expensive, but I believe that if SEPTA could prove that the ridership would be justified, they could snag a nice big grant from the federal or state government (less so state. Harrisburg seems to hate SEPTA).
Because the lower level of Pattison is deep, I wonder if this would help with the costs of tunneling below the Deleware?
You are absolutely right; I did get my idea from an earlier 1919 proposal; I actually have a huge book in my possession with the original plans. The most of digging under the Delaware River wouldn't be cheap however it would also be offset by Federal funds; Pennsylvania and New Jersey funds so it wouldn't all fall on SEPTA. Such a extension to the Broad Street Line into Jersey would go straight down Red Bank Avenue and it would probably have something to do with PATCO.

In the days when the original idea was talked about the Broad Street Line ended at Broad and Synder; much of what was below Oregon Avenue was marsh; the Reserve Basin in the Navy Yard was the back channel and you didn't have Roosevelt Park; remember this was before Municipal Stadium or those parks were built; but they were talked about because the 1926 Celebrations were coming up; the 150th anniversary of the nation so some of the work was planned even then; stuff we only have to modify now; not start from scratch which is why the Broad Street Line added Oregon and Pattison Avenue stations later; it was easier; it was already thought out.
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  #17240  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 2:56 PM
JohnIII JohnIII is offline
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Originally Posted by JurassicPhilly View Post
I'd love to see a 700' + building on North Broad. It would totally redefine the skyline and bring some great symmetry to the view from the Art Museum steps.
I agree with you; it would be real cool to see something 700' to 750' on North Broad Street of maybe Delaware and Spring Garden to.

But if something goes on North Broad Street over 700' where would it go; maybe between Broad and 13th Street between Noble and Buttonwood maybe.

This city has so much potential; so much.
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