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  #241  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 12:26 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
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Miami and SD are very different, IMO.

Miami is international, very nonwhite, intense, New Yorky, very un-middle America. San Diego feels all-American, very white for CA standards, heavy military presence, somewhat conservative (old-style conservative, not Trump-style), super laid-back. To me it feels like Iowa on the Pacific, or maybe how LA/OC felt 40-50 years ago.

And obviously there are big demographic differences, with Miami's Carribean and Jewish communities and SD's WASP, Mexican and Asian communities.

Also, Miami feels like a really small version of a global metropolis, while SD feels like a really big version of a small town.
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  #242  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 12:32 PM
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I actually don’t see much in common between Portland and Seattle, besides culture

Portland is an archetypical midwestern design with long commercial streets. Seattle doesn’t have this and is more nodal with small centers.
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  #243  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Miami and SD are very different, IMO.

Miami is international, very nonwhite, intense, New Yorky, very un-middle America. San Diego feels all-American, very white for CA standards, heavy military presence, somewhat conservative (old-style conservative, not Trump-style), super laid-back. To me it feels like Iowa on the Pacific, or maybe how LA/OC felt 40-50 years ago.

And obviously there are big demographic differences, with Miami's Carribean and Jewish communities and SD's WASP, Mexican and Asian communities.

Also, Miami feels like a really small version of a global metropolis, while SD feels like a really big version of a small town.
I don't find Miami to be "New Yorky" at all anymore. I think the last time one could actually feel that was in the 1990s. And for apparent Jewish-ness, you'd have to be up north in Boca or somewhere or find some elderly enclave on the Beach somewhere.
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  #244  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I don't find Miami to be "New Yorky" at all anymore. I think the last time one could actually feel that was in the 1990s. And for apparent Jewish-ness, you'd have to be up north in Boca or somewhere or find some elderly enclave on the Beach somewhere.
Miami Beach, and downtown Miami, have a huge NY presence. And both are quite Jewish. Big Hispanic Jewish and Orthodox presence, and fast growth.

Miami-Dade County has one of the largest Jewish populations in the U.S. And Miami really means South Florida, not Miami-Dade exclusively. Boca would be Miami.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...le2709160.html
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  #245  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
I actually don’t see much in common between Portland and Seattle, besides culture
How about tons of poorly dressed, unsmiling, nominally liberal, irreligious WASPs who love the outdoors? But yeah, the cities look pretty different.
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  #246  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Miami Beach, and downtown Miami, have a huge NY presence. And both are quite Jewish. Big Hispanic Jewish and Orthodox presence, and fast growth.

Miami-Dade County has one of the largest Jewish populations in the U.S. And Miami really means South Florida, not Miami-Dade exclusively. Boca would be Miami.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...le2709160.html
The culture is not apparent in a "New Yorky" way anymore, nor do you get the feeling of Miami being a place characterized by any sort of Jewishness, as one would in New York anymore. I've lived in Miami since 1984. It has dramatically changed.

Boca is not Miami.
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  #247  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
How about tons of poorly dressed, unsmiling, nominally liberal, irreligious WASPs who love the outdoors? But yeah, the cities look pretty different.
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  #248  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Where in NJ are there huge arterials lined with miles of early 20th century dense, auto-oriented retail?
That's not what he said though.

His criteria for Detroit and Los Angeles being similar in nearly every respect: "Both are dominated by freeways and have jobs that are spread out. Both are denser than traditional sun-belt cities."

And then you come back with huge arterials lined with miles of early 20th century dense auto oriented retail.
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  #249  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:26 PM
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Ok gang, I'm starting to understand the Detroit to L.A. comparison.

If you totally ignore the differences in:
Climate, history, population total, population density, the entertainment industry, flora, fauna, topography - mountains, hills, canyons, the Pacific Ocean, the river channels, congestion, racial demographics, growth rates, housing values, income...[need I say more?]

Then Los Angeles and Detroit are the most similar in nearly every respect because they have straight roads with some bungalows from the same era.
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  #250  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Miami Beach, and downtown Miami, have a huge NY presence. And both are quite Jewish. Big Hispanic Jewish and Orthodox presence, and fast growth.

Miami-Dade County has one of the largest Jewish populations in the U.S. And Miami really means South Florida, not Miami-Dade exclusively. Boca would be Miami.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...le2709160.html
That same article said the Jewish population in Miami grew by 9 % after 3 decades of decline. Obviously, its not as big as it was.
And it's 11th in the nation, which is in line with Miami's metro population ranking in the U.S.
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  #251  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:31 PM
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That same article said the Jewish population in Miami grew by 9 % after 3 decades of decline. Obviously, its not as big as it was.
The article is talking about the Miami-Dade Jewish population, not the Miami Jewish population. There are at least three counties in "Miami", this is only one.

And yes, the population is huge, even if it had postwar decline, which isn't unlike what happened in the NYC area. Core, urban, Jewish populations declined during the era of suburban expansion, basically everywhere.
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  #252  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
That's not what he said though.

His criteria for Detroit and Los Angeles being similar in nearly every respect: "Both are dominated by freeways and have jobs that are spread out. Both are denser than traditional sun-belt cities."

And then you come back with huge arterials lined with miles of early 20th century dense auto oriented retail.
NJ has very centralized employment for U.S. standards, and has one of the lowest auto orientations in the U.S., so that makes no sense. NJ is the second most transit-oriented state.

And yeah, obviously we're talking built form, not where people work.
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  #253  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The article is talking about the Miami-Dade Jewish population, not the Miami Jewish population. There are at least three counties in "Miami", this is only one.

And yes, the population is huge, even if it had postwar decline, which isn't unlike what happened in the NYC area. Core, urban, Jewish populations declined during the era of suburban expansion, basically everywhere.
Outside of NYC, I have heard that Pittsburgh is basically the only remaining U.S. city with a large Jewish neighborhood remaining within the urban core. I'm not 100% sure this is true, but I can't think of any notable still-existing Jewish neighborhoods in Boston, Philly, Detroit, Cleveland, etc.
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  #254  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Ok gang, I'm starting to understand the Detroit to L.A. comparison.

If you totally ignore the differences in:
Climate, history, population total, population density, the entertainment industry, flora, fauna, topography - mountains, hills, canyons, the Pacific Ocean, the river channels, congestion, racial demographics, growth rates, housing values, income...[need I say more?]

Then Los Angeles and Detroit are the most similar in nearly every respect because they have straight roads with some bungalows from the same era.
This discussion is pointless because the question was dysfunctional from the start with the "similar in almost every respect" part. Obviously no cities separated by such distance are going to be twins of each other. Talking only about the comparisons like Milwaukee-Chicago obviously gets old so the discussion shifts to cities that have more superficial similarities, of which Detroit and LA clearly do. There can be a productive discussion around that if we aren't going to get hung up on the narrow-framed question.
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  #255  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
The immediate downtown of San Diego and Miami is similar, but that’s it

Miami grew as vacation and retirement community with a very master planned character. It has far fewer historic nodes with walkable businesses than places like San Diego or Los Angeles. Retail is all about strip malls and power centers, with gridded suburbs and not much else

Miami lacks real beach towns. The drive from Carlsbad through La Jolla and mission beach is down to downtown San Diego is nothing like the drive south from say lake worth to dt Miami Beach . Many more walkable pedestrian areas in the case of San Diego
Yea, I haven't been there, but South Florida beach towns don't look interesting via google maps. Just a bunch of bland highrises and not many commercial areas. Pass.
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  #256  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:49 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Outside of NYC, I have heard that Pittsburgh is basically the only remaining U.S. city with a large Jewish neighborhood remaining within the urban core. I'm not 100% sure this is true, but I can't think of any notable still-existing Jewish neighborhoods in Boston, Philly, Detroit, Cleveland, etc.
Are you defining "urban core" as city proper or urban neighborhood? Detroit hasn't had a city proper Jewish presence since about 1970 (and even then was in semi-suburban NW Detroit), Cleveland Jews left the East Side by 1960 or so, Boston has no heavily Jewish city proper neighborhoods, but did it ever? Brookline is Jewish and urban in parts.

NE Philly has a Russian Jewish and Orthodox presence (though declining), so it might qualify. NW Baltimore City definitely has an growing Orthodox Jewish presence, though semi-suburban. West LA has a huge Jewish corridor. Chicago has an Orthodox corridor in West Rogers Park (though I think most Orthodox are in North Shore burbs now).

Is the Pittsburgh neighborhood Orthodox? I never think of Pittsburgh as an Orthodox center, and non-Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods are kinda disappearing through intermarriage/secularization.
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  #257  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 1:54 PM
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Squirrel Hill in Pittsburgh is pretty Orthodox/Conservative/Lubavitcher/Reform

So... a mix

Last edited by pj3000; Aug 28, 2019 at 2:06 PM.
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  #258  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Miami and SD are very different, IMO.

Miami is international, very nonwhite, intense, New Yorky, very un-middle America. San Diego feels all-American, very white for CA standards, heavy military presence, somewhat conservative (old-style conservative, not Trump-style), super laid-back. To me it feels like Iowa on the Pacific, or maybe how LA/OC felt 40-50 years ago.

And obviously there are big demographic differences, with Miami's Carribean and Jewish communities and SD's WASP, Mexican and Asian communities.

Also, Miami feels like a really small version of a global metropolis, while SD feels like a really big version of a small town.
Good assessment. Other than bordering an ocean, the two have very little in common. Miami is loud and in your face, SD is more subdued typical laid back Southern California.
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  #259  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The article is talking about the Miami-Dade Jewish population, not the Miami Jewish population. There are at least three counties in "Miami", this is only one.

And yes, the population is huge, even if it had postwar decline, which isn't unlike what happened in the NYC area. Core, urban, Jewish populations declined during the era of suburban expansion, basically everywhere.
Yeah, but North Dade and into Broward and Palm Beach counties do not characterize Miami. The Jewishness of Miami has dwindled dramatically since the 1980s. Those areas to the north don't really function as suburbs of Miami, and certainly don't contribute to Miami's atmosphere.

Increases in population there do nothing to characterize Miami as Jewish overall. South Florida, yes. I would never argue that the overall "Miami" area has a significant Jewish population and prominence. So i know what you're getting at, I think.

And it's not post-war Jewish decline here... as this article specifically talks about how the Jewish population declined from the 1970s to 2004 (the last time the study was done). The study shows "the number of Jewish households increased by only about 1 percent, but the total number of Jews grew about 9 percent"... due to Hispanic and Orthodox Jewish increase, who have more people per household.

As for the "new young adult Jewish population of about 7,000 emerged in the downtown Miami area"... this is kinda laughable since it's due to younger Jewish condo buyers who actually live elsewhere. Ira Sheskin, the guy who did this study is a former professor of mine who I know well and speak with on occasion... he laughs about this fact of including condo buyers, but includes it in his numbers because it's "good for the Jewish community" to promote it. He lives way up in Cooper City, by the way.

Miami is just not Jewish in the way that it used to be. It was certainly a very prominent part of the culture of Miami Beach and parts of Miami. While there's still Jewish money/influence and some political power (on Miami Beach) here, it is nothing like it was. It used to have so much more of that New York vibe and Jewish culture vibe to it, but Miami has just changed so dramatically in the last 20 years.
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  #260  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2019, 2:03 PM
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That's what I've heard as well. Dont hear much of the "6th borough" thing anymore, unless it's on these forums lol.
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