Mueller to get new HEB in 2013

[Jdawgboy]

I agree, Its very strange how it is connected with the surrounding areas, for example when you get off at the 51st street exit from northbound I-35 you have to go through Mueller just to get to 51st street. I can kind of understand why they did this but to me its a waste of time IMO. Plus there is no natural blend in the street grid between the other neighborhoods and Mueller.

[SecretAgentMan]

The lack of connection to the surrounding neighborhoods is very deliberate. The surrounding neighborhoods feared it would bring too much traffic to their streets. That is also why there is a perimeter greenbelt on most sides. The jug handle exit from 1-35 to 51st was required by TxDOT. The City & TxDOT are now working on a different exit to 51st because they now realize the jug handle does not work very well.

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan

The lack of connection to the surrounding neighborhoods is very deliberate. The surrounding neighborhoods feared it would bring too much traffic to their streets. That is also why there is a perimeter greenbelt on most sides. The jug handle exit from 1-35 to 51st was required by TxDOT. The City & TxDOT are now working on a different exit to 51st because they now realize the jug handle does not work very well.

It may have been a deliberate decision, but that does not mean it was a good decision. Mueller is isolated and it does not feel like it is really part of the city. I hope any redevelopment that takes place at Highland Mall avoids this mistake and makes an effort to connect with the surrounding area. I was out at The Domain the other night and was just horrified by the place. Talk about a place apart, a faux urban fantasyland that is really just another suburban shopping center. Mueller is not that bad, but it could have been so much more than what it is.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan

Mueller was never intended to be another downtown. It was intended to be an exemplary mixed-use NEIGHBORHOOD.

And if you could point anybody to somewhere I even implied I expected it to be another downtown, you'd have a point.

Absent that, you're obviously trying just to mislead and misrepresent. Nice job, Jim Walker.

Mueller is not an urban neighborhood now - and enough of it is built out now to put the lie to the claim that it'll be non-trivially urban in the future. Too many of the midrise office buildings are too far separated from any other uses; too little multi-family anywhere; too much strip retail when other developments in the same area succeeded with VMU; etc.

The 'mix' of uses is horizontal and not mixed at all. It's standard medium-density new-suburban. Even Plum Creek in Kyle can accomplish that.

[SecretAgentMan]

Originally Posted by M1EK

And if you could point anybody to somewhere I even implied I expected it to be another downtown, you'd have a point.

Absent that, you're obviously trying just to mislead and misrepresent. Nice job, Jim Walker.

Mueller is not an urban neighborhood now - and enough of it is built out now to put the lie to the claim that it'll be non-trivially urban in the future. Too many of the midrise office buildings are too far separated from any other uses; too little multi-family anywhere; too much strip retail when other developments in the same area succeeded with VMU; etc.

The 'mix' of uses is horizontal and not mixed at all. It's standard medium-density new-suburban. Even Plum Creek in Kyle can accomplish that.

My post wasn't addressed to anybody specifically, so there is really no reason to go on the offensive. My name isn't Jim Walker. Keep guessing!

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan

My post wasn't addressed to anybody specifically, so there is really no reason to go on the offensive. My name isn't Jim Walker. Keep guessing!

And I wasn't accusing you of being Jim Walker either, just parroting him (a la "Thanks, Rush" to people repeating his talking points).

More importantly, you didn't bother to address:

Mueller is not an urban neighborhood now - and enough of it is built out now to put the lie to the claim that it'll be non-trivially urban in the future. Too many of the midrise office buildings are too far separated from any other uses; too little multi-family anywhere; too much strip retail when other developments in the same area succeeded with VMU; etc.

The 'mix' of uses is horizontal and not mixed at all. It's standard medium-density new-suburban. Even Plum Creek in Kyle can accomplish that.

[paulsjv]

Originally Posted by M1EK

The 'mix' of uses is horizontal and not mixed at all. It's standard medium-density new-suburban. Even Plum Creek in Kyle can accomplish that.

They like to call it "new urbanism" but you'd call it "new-suburban." Doesn't really matter what you call it it's not going to be anything like an urban setting and it's not planned to be that way.

Oh and great for Plum Creek in Kyle!

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by paulsjv

They like to call it "new urbanism" but you'd call it "new-suburban." Doesn't really matter what you call it it's not going to be anything like an urban setting and it's not planned to be that way.

Oh and great for Plum Creek in Kyle!

It DOES matter because they're even advertising Mueller on TV these days as a model "new urban community"; talking about how walkable it is (even though there's nothing to walk to but parks); etc. It's ruining the brand of urbanism - so that the next time I have to try to convince some of my skeptical NIMBY neighbors that a VMU project can be nice for us, they'll point at Mueller and say "we don't want that!"

[KevinFromTexas]

Mike has a point. Since when are detached single family houses with tiny yards and big box stores around the corner urban? This "new urbanism" phrase - it's like record companies packaging some bubblegum pop singer in place of something original and trying as hard as they can to convince us it's the same.

And I'd be ever so irritated to have to buy a storage shed that would take up space in my tiny yard so that I could store a lawn mower and other lawn equipment to keep up my tiny patch of grass. I wouldn't mind a storage shed, but I'd rather have bicycles in it, or use it for actual storage.

We all kind of forget on the forum that we can pick out what's urban and what's not and we know all the definitions and styles and everything, but for the everyday person who just doesn't care about the subject of urbanity, they'll likely not be as knowledgeable on the subject. So when they hear that Mueller is "new urbanism" and don't like it, they might equate that to what is real urbanism or "old urbanism" if you like.

[SecretAgentMan]

Originally Posted by M1EK

And I wasn't accusing you of being Jim Walker either, just parroting him (a la "Thanks, Rush" to people repeating his talking points).

More importantly, you didn't bother to address:

I addressed it previously. You are judging the development based on the least dense part of the plan (and what has been built thus far is significantly more dense than most of the surrounding neighborhoods). And, the town center is happening, and soon.

New Urbanism includes the concept of the transect which ranges from T1 Natural through T6 Urban Core. Mueller contains mostly T4 General Urban & T5 Urban Center. The Mueller Plan won a Charter Award from the Congress for the New Urbanism, so it can't be as bad as y'all make it out to be if the leaders of the movement thought it deserved such recognition.

I'm not saying it is perfect, and couldn't be improved, but I think you are all being overly critical, or do not understand the principles of New Urbanism very well.

[electricron]

Maybe your and our definition for new urbanism needs to change?
http://www.newurbanism.org/newurbanism/principles.html

Here's just two principles already broken at Mueller.

Walkability
Most things within a 10-minute walk of home and work
Pedestrian friendly street design (buildings close to street; porches, windows & doors; tree-lined streets; on street parking; hidden parking lots; garages in rear lane; narrow, slow speed streets)
Pedestrian streets free of cars in special cases

Mixed-Use & Diversity
A mix of shops, offices, apartments, and homes on site. Mixed-use within neighborhoods, within blocks, and within buildings
Diversity of people - of ages, income levels, cultures, and races

[SecretAgentMan]

Originally Posted by electricron

Maybe your and our definition for new urbanism needs to change?
http://www.newurbanism.org/newurbanism/principles.html

Here's just two principles already broken at Mueller.

Walkability
Most things within a 10-minute walk of home and work
Pedestrian friendly street design (buildings close to street; porches, windows & doors; tree-lined streets; on street parking; hidden parking lots; garages in rear lane; narrow, slow speed streets)
Pedestrian streets free of cars in special cases

Mixed-Use & Diversity
A mix of shops, offices, apartments, and homes on site. Mixed-use within neighborhoods, within blocks, and within buildings
Diversity of people - of ages, income levels, cultures, and races

It's true that the parking lots at the regional retail area and Children's Hospital could be better concealed with more liner buildings, but they are both designed to eventually be redeveloped into building sites and garages. Most of the other parking lots and garages are quite well hidden from the street.

As for mixed-use buildings, the town center has not been built yet, but both Mosaic at Mueller and Wildflower Terrace (under construction) contain ground floor retail and live/work spaces.

Not every building in the transect is intended to contain mixed-uses. That would only make sense if the entire project was T6 Urban Core.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan

It's true that the parking lots at the regional retail area and Children's Hospital could be better concealed with more liner buildings, but they are both designed to eventually be redeveloped into building sites and garages. Most of the other parking lots and garages are quite well hidden from the street.

As for mixed-use buildings, the town center has not been built yet, but both Mosaic at Mueller and Wildflower Terrace (under construction) contain ground floor retail and live/work spaces.

Not every building in the transect is intended to contain mixed-uses. That would only make sense if the entire project was T6 Urban Core.

I completely agree with you.

[paulsjv]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan

It's true that the parking lots at the regional retail area and Children's Hospital could be better concealed with more liner buildings, but they are both designed to eventually be redeveloped into building sites and garages. Most of the other parking lots and garages are quite well hidden from the street.

As for mixed-use buildings, the town center has not been built yet, but both Mosaic at Mueller and Wildflower Terrace (under construction) contain ground floor retail and live/work spaces.

Not every building in the transect is intended to contain mixed-uses. That would only make sense if the entire project was T6 Urban Core.

Wildflower Terrace is nice and looks to be fairly close to completion. Probably a few more months before it opens.

I've seen reports (I think the Stateman) where the Children's Museum is going to be built with a large surface area parking lot. As the town center gets built out they are going to be building a parking garage.

I look at the SEDL building here as an example. They'll probably build a parking garage once more building around it get built and then remove the parking lot they have.

[M1EK]

Nice sales job, SecretAgentMan.

The parking lots can be lined with buildings all you want - but the streets aren't going anywhere, meaning the buildings that are already there will still not be pedestrian-fronted.

And the density is higher than the surrounding areas because the surrounding areas were developed primarily in the 1950s. Pretty low bar to surpass.

Finally, the Town Center was supposed to happen many years ago. What we've seen in every phase of this project has been a disappointment to me and everybody else without a financial or personal stake in this project - not as compared to downtown or the existing neighborhoods around Mueller, but instead compared to new developments of similar types in other (arguably LESS central) parts of town. The Triangle and The Domain do a better job in most respects. Even East Avenue did a better job with I-35 frontage.

This isn't new urbanism, despite your bullshit. You can dress it up in buzzwords all you want, but it's not urban - and never will be given the huge blind spot the people involved have. Just Saturday I drove over to get a smoothie for my stepson after his wisdom teeth surgery and in addition to the usual sad feeling I get driving down the road noticing almost every office building addressing a parking lot rather than the street, I had an anectdote which was even more depressing - I parked at Jamba Juice closer to the street side hoping a little urbanism would rub off on my 7 year old. Street entrance and parking lot entrance. Good incremental urban strategy! Try to go in the street entrance, notice it's just a long nondescript hallway (i.e. pedestrians get the short end). Door is locked. Sigh. Go back around to the parking lot entrance. Par for the course for Mueller - even when they tried to do something right, they still did it wrong.

[M1EK]

BTW, if you're tempted to believe SAM's implication that I just don't understand the project, please be aware I was being briefed on this thing back in 2000-2005 on the UTC; raising issues even back then about the poor support for bicycling and the lack of integration with the surrounding neighborhoods. Even back then, it was obvious this thing was a loser - a piss-poor use of publically owned land which could be generating a lot more revenue for Austin AND doing something truly urban.

[SecretAgentMan]

New proposed Urban Rail connection to Mueller from Hancock Center



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Possible interim maintenance facility tucked in behind HEB loading dock



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[wwmiv]

Where'd you pull those from?

[paulsjv]

That's cool... but over 1/2 mile away for any of the stops from the vast majority of the homes. Guess they are targeting the business areas of Mueller and not the residences.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan

I forgot to add:

The town center IS happening. Look forward to an announcement on that in the near future.

This thread was dragged up in twitter recently and I saw this firm promise by our pal SAM.

It's now practically April 2012. Where's the announcement?