Canada's other half

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Kingston (pop: 123,000) strikes a good balance: it's small enough that it generally takes 15 minutes or less to get anywhere in the city, but large enough that it has most of the services and amenities of a large city. I wouldn't want to live in a city much smaller than that, though.

It's interesting talking to some Queen's students from the Toronto area, who constantly complain about how "small" Kingston is and how much it lacks. Yes, we get it, Kingston doesn't have Toronto's clubs, it doesn't have Persian restaurants like Toronto, it doesn't have the theatre scene Toronto has. That's what you signed up for when you went to a university in a smaller city.

Meh I don't think it's a product of size but demographics.

I think most here would agree that around 50k is the limit of how small a place can be and still have all the central services associated with a city.

Universitys, Hospitals, Shoping districts, and a place for clubbing.

The bigger issue is unpleasant demographics.

While its debatable how much people love immigrants, it's hard to argue that most people would like a few more options than meat and potaetoes.

I think most places benefit when atleast 5 percent of the population is foreign born.

Age, education and income are the other factors.

Economics factor greatly alter this 50k, if you have to avoid a section of the city due to high crime, or simply due to a lack of investment in an area.

Age as well can greatly alter the concentration of a population. If the majority of people aren't in your age group, or marital status it can make a place seem a whole lot smaller.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

It's interesting talking to some Queen's students from the Toronto area, who constantly complain about how "small" Kingston is and how much it lacks. Yes, we get it, Kingston doesn't have Toronto's clubs, it doesn't have Persian restaurants like Toronto, it doesn't have the theatre scene Toronto has. That's what you signed up for when you went to a university in a smaller city.

ARGH tell me about it.

I mean, we can't really complain about out-of-town Queen's students because they contribute vastly to our city. I mean our amazing downtown, punching-above-its-weight transit system, the fact that we have one of the highest numbers of restaurants and bars per-capita in the whole country--lots of this is because of the students. Kingston would be way, way, way, less of a city without the university.

But they can be irritating at times. I'm not talking about all the stupid NIMBY complaints about parties and stuff, it's just the way they interact with the city. Most students are very disdainful of Kingston. They form their own little bubble, very isolated from the city as a whole, having very few interactions with the downtown population--in fact, many students disparagingly call permanent downtown residents 'townies' and look on with quite a bit of disgust and elitism. Those aren't just stereotypes, the majority of the student body behaves that way. A lot of is class difference, Kingston's inner city is largely working class whereas these students are almost entirely upper-middle class suburban kids...

Of course, permanent residents often view students negatively too, often thinking of them as a giant mass of mindless Toronto elites who ruin our real-people city with Lululemon and Starbucks who live on daddy's credit card and give no shits about anything at all....

The town-gown wars can be quite fierce here. One very recent flare up was over whether or not 19,000 out-of-town students who StatsCan reports as not living in the city should be counted as part of the city's population for the purposes of drawing ward boundaries (most students have their official documents like drivers licenses, tax papers, etc. at their parents addresses). City Council voted against doing so, but the Queens student association appealed and the OMB ruled that they must be counted. It also ruled that the city's planning must factor in those 19,000 people as well... as such, from the perspective of Kingston's planning department, the city's population essentially increased from 123,000 to 142,000 in a single day (take that Calgary).

[MolsonExport]

the city's population essentially increased from 123,000 to 142,000 in a single day (take that Calgary).

woot woot!

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by RWin

I've posted these before but it shows a bit of the physical geography of my home town:

Someone put this one on the Vernon wikipedia article but it really is mine

Ah vernon, I grew up in Kelowna and Vernon is my second favourite city in the Okanagan.

Penticton is my favourite though.

I lived in Kelowna near the centuria highrise building.

Haven't been to the okanagan in over a year.

[MolsonExport]

^I lived in Kelowna and Osoyoos for periods. Penticton is also my favorite Okanagan city.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

woot woot!

Projecting that single day's growth rate into the future, I hereby forecast that Kingston will soon have more residents than rest-of-the-Earth-minus-Kingston, combined.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

ARGH tell me about it.

I mean, we can't really complain about out-of-town Queen's students because they contribute vastly to our city. I mean our amazing downtown, punching-above-its-weight transit system, the fact that we have one of the highest numbers of restaurants and bars per-capita in the whole country--lots of this is because of the students. Kingston would be way, way, way, less of a city without the university.

But they can be irritating at times. I'm not talking about all the stupid NIMBY complaints about parties and stuff, it's just the way they interact with the city. Most students are very disdainful of Kingston. They form their own little bubble, very isolated from the city as a whole, having very few interactions with the downtown population--in fact, many students disparagingly call permanent downtown residents 'townies' and look on with quite a bit of disgust and elitism. Those aren't just stereotypes, the majority of the student body behaves that way. A lot of is class difference, Kingston's inner city is largely working class whereas these students are almost entirely upper-middle class suburban kids...

Of course, permanent residents often view students negatively too, often thinking of them as a giant mass of mindless Toronto elites who ruin our real-people city with Lululemon and Starbucks who live on daddy's credit card and give no shits about anything at all....

The town-gown wars can be quite fierce here. One very recent flare up was over whether or not 19,000 out-of-town students who StatsCan reports as not living in the city should be counted as part of the city's population for the purposes of drawing ward boundaries (most students have their official documents like drivers licenses, tax papers, etc. at their parents addresses). City Council voted against doing so, but the Queens student association appealed and the OMB ruled that they must be counted. It also ruled that the city's planning must factor in those 19,000 people as well... as such, from the perspective of Kingston's planning department, the city's population essentially increased from 123,000 to 142,000 in a single day (take that Calgary).

What about the RMC students? A little more broad cross-section of the country vice Queen's.
I never went there though, I paid for my education.
We call RMC grads "Ring Knockers" and they have this annoying habit of asking "what is your number" because they can then ID what year you went through "the gate". Rumour has it that you cannot become the Chief of Defence Staff unless you are a RMC grad.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

We call RMC grads "Ring Knockers" and they have this annoying habit of asking "what is your number" because they can then ID what year you went through "the gate". Rumour has it that you cannot become the Chief of Defence Staff unless you are a RMC grad.

Some military friends of mine in the past ALWAYS made fun of RMC. Mostly because you could get the government to pay your way at a regular university without all the discipline. But it wouldn't surprise me that it's favoured for higher ups.

Kingston is a weird place. Very pretty - I like it a lot. Had to save my friend from getting beaten up there because we went to the wrong bar (they did NOT like university students). There was blood involved and having to try and drag him home through backyards. Good times!

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

What about the RMC students? A little more broad cross-section of the country vice Queen's.
I never went there though, I paid for my education.
We call RMC grads "Ring Knockers" and they have this annoying habit of asking "what is your number" because they can then ID what year you went through "the gate". Rumour has it that you cannot become the Chief of Defence Staff unless you are a RMC grad.

RMC is MUCH smaller than Queen's. RMC has 2,000 students, Queen's has 23,000. RMC students also tend to live almost entirely on campus, whereas with Queen's over 80% of the students rent in the city. These two things combined mean that Queen's students are WAY more visible in the city than RMC students are.

Queen's dominates Kingston in a way that doesn't seem to happen anywhere else. While large universities in small cities is a relatively common scenario in Canada, I don't think anywhere is quite as skewed as Kingston--students make up 20% of our entire population, plus those students are entirely in the core, and almost entirely living off campus.

And ya, RMC is a LOT more of a cross-section of Canada than Queen's. Given its size, Queen's must have one of the most skewed demographics of any university... it's almost all kids from white-collar upper-middle class suburban families in the GTA and to a lesser extent Ottawa. It's maybe 80% white with almost all of the remainder being East Asian. South Asians, Blacks, Natives, are almost invisible at Queens'...

Starting to see why town-gown relations are such a problem here, everyone?

[niwell]

Everyone I know who went to private school in Toronto went to Queen's... the rumours are not unfounded haha

[MolsonExport]

Queens or UWO. Universities for the sons/daughters of the rich establishment class in the GTA. Queens and UWO are big rivals.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Queens or UWO. Universities for the sons/daughters of the rich establishment class in the GTA. Queens and UWO are big rivals.

But why? I'm not trying to put the schools down or anything, but the University of Toronto is ranked much higher for example. I don't know much about the schools out east and I know rankings can mean very little, but I was just surprised to see the two so low given the fantastic reputation both of them have.

[niwell]

The University of Toronto is certainly one of the best schools in the country and has international recognition. Lots of people from Toronto do go there.

However in the case of the established private-school type class I think it's more of a "you are supposed to go to University in another city" type thing. You don't go to U of T because it's in the same city. Both Queen's and UWO are in other places but close enough to make the drive home for the weekend. Their respective cities (moreso Kingston) have reputations as university places. I dunno, I could be off-base but I have gotten that impression.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by niwell

The University of Toronto is certainly one of the best schools in the country and has international recognition. Lots of people from Toronto do go there.

However in the case of the established private-school type class I think it's more of a "you are supposed to go to University in another city" type thing. You don't go to U of T because it's in the same city. Both Queen's and UWO are in other places but close enough to make the drive home for the weekend. Their respective cities (moreso Kingston) have reputations as university places. I dunno, I could be off-base but I have gotten that impression.

Plus a lot of them are not bright or driven enough to go to UofW.

[MolsonExport]

^

Although...UWO: Rising enrolment bucks provincial trend

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^

Although...UWO: Rising enrolment bucks provincial trend

As long as it retains its rep as a leading party school, UWO won't need to worry too much about its enrollment numbers.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

As long as it retains its rep as a leading party school, UWO won't need to worry too much about its enrollment numbers.

That's the general impression I've always had for sure. The only reason I brought it up is because I was browsing the Canadian university rankings and was truly surprised to see Western and Queens so far down, considering the fantastic academic reputation they have. I mean Alberta is apparently the fifth best school in Canada, yet it doesn't have nearly the same status as the two Ontario schools.

[ssiguy]

Queen's and Western are old money schools. Prior to 1960 when there was large scale university expansion and university degrees where still coveted and meant something, prestige meant everything.

Universities were still the privy of the well-to-do and due to this they were not only places to get educated but very importantly places to meet the "right" kind of people. At the time Canada had only 4 prestigious schools where the kids from Rosedale or Westmountn would ever send their kids..........McGill, Toronto, Western, and Queens. All the other schools in the country were for locals or also-rans as they were Canada's only Ivey League schools.

These reputations have survived the test of time partly due to their still excellent academic standards but also because the decades of the well off has left those schools with enviable infrastructure, foundations, and beautiful campuses which not only helps draw the best students but also the best profs. These schools also left their footprint on their cities in terms of architecture and leafy neighbourhoods. This is why Kingston and London are still amongst the nation's most beautiful and liveable cities.

Arrogant?........absolutely but that doesn't make it any less true. Universities and a university degree is still just as much about status as getting a higher education.

Like all things, reputation counts and if you have a bad one, no matter what you do, it is very hard to shake and vice versa.

[MolsonExport]

^good post.


The problem with the lists is that they rely on some dubious formulae to rank order. Lists are like assholes: everybody has got one.

[SignalHillHiker]

Yeah, the best the rest of us can hope for is to excel in a certain field and gain a reputation in that area. Folklore is a good example for Memorial University. There are only a handful schools from which such a degree carries the same prestige.

But, for the most part, still a local also-ran. And easily in the running for Canada's ugliest university campus.