Ontario really has gone down the tubes

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I don't think Ford is going to be nearly as much of a cause for alarm as progressives are making it out to be.

Agreed. Most of the public consternation is blown out of proportion. Easy to look bad when there's a POTUS south of us who sets the popular example.

[vid]

What exactly is it that Trudeau and Wynne did/are doing that makes them SJWs?

How is Doug Ford reversing the trend they started?

[Truenorth00]

Oh I think Ford is going to be a disaster. Not in the calculating vindictive sort of way. More like a bumbling moron kind of way. Especially as interest rates rise and the economy starts slowing down. Everybody looks like a genius when markets are going up. Trump might end up having the same reckoning on the economy in the south.

At a fundamental level, he really doesn't seem to get basics like economics. And unfortunately, it doesn't seem like his ministers are going to contain or insulate the damage as much as people thought.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don’t know anything about Brazilian politics so I don’t know if it is related, but I think in many countries the left has lost interest in the working class. If you’re poor the left is all over that (as long as it is the last few months of a 15 year mandate). If you’re affluent then there are all kinds of tax breaks and new programs. If you’re working class/lower middle class then SFA.

I think part of the problem is that leftist elites use “middle class” as a euphemism for themselves (people making between maybe 150% and 500% of the median income) and “working class” as a euphemism for the poor, so between the two there is a huge chunk of the population that is basically ignored.

Originally Posted by vid

What exactly is it that Trudeau and Wynne did/are doing that makes them SJWs?

How is Doug Ford reversing the trend they started?

The middle class gap. It's well known. It's where they create lots of programs that help the poor, but set the income cutoff just high enough that most of the middle class can't take advantage of it. Happens when you try and create targeted programs instead of universal programs.

So the poor get help from the government. And the rich have teams of lawyers and accountants who help them take advantage of loopholes. The middle class have none of that. So they are constantly seeing the poor climbing up and joining them and watching the rich pull further and further away.

It's what really pissed me off about Wynne. She was far worse on this than McGuinty. And Trudeau, for many of his flaws, has actually avoided the temptation to follow her down the rabbit hole on many of his programs and policies. If you notice, Trudeau targets all his programs to a high income level. Some of it does skew towards the poor. But, it's never been as blatant as some of what Wynne did.

I've long argued that the way around this is to do things that are universally beneficial. Examples:

Consider that for the price of a single EV tax credit, 8-10 people could get a full year of transit passes for free. So what's better, tax credits for Tesla buyers or putting that money in better public transit? Or how about actually building charging stations at all the en routes and helping utilities adapt the grid?

Wynne decide to make university free for low income students. You know who that really pisses off? Low income BA/BSc holders. Now they get to compete with a flood of degree holders who had to do less to get those degrees and take on less debt, while they are still stuck paying OSAP. She could have chosen to make community college free instead. That would have been more sensible and created more skilled workers. But those SJW instincts took over....



So here's how it looks to the average middle class guy. Let's call him Joe. He makes about $70k a year as an mid level CGA. His wife makes about $40k per year supply teaching. They live in the suburbs with two cars, two kids and a dog.

Joe's next door neighbour, Brian, is a doctor. One day, while out mowing the lawn, Joe sees Brian's new car. Brian starts bragging to Joe all about his new Tesla. Tells Joe the best part is that he doesn't have to pay the high gas prices Joe has to pay any more and Kathleen Wynne sent him a $10 000 cheque (before the outcry) to help pay for it.

The next day, Joe meets Susan, a pro-bono client of his, at the tax clinic where he volunteers. He's helping Susan do her taxes on the $50 000 she makes annually. They start chatting about Susan's daughter reaching university age. And he finds out that thanks to the Wynne government's recent announcement, Susan's daughter will go to university tuition free. He looks up the program and the online calculator and finds out that his own kids will get grants that are 70% lower and they'll have to pay nearly 60% of their own tuition. His kids would also get $4000 less in total financing than Susan. They won't even get OSAP to cover anywhere close to what the OSAP site says is the cost of university.

How do you think Joe is going to vote come election time?

[Djesus777]

Originally Posted by vid

What exactly is it that Trudeau and Wynne did/are doing that makes them SJWs?

How is Doug Ford reversing the trend they started?

For starters, Bill C-16, a gender-neutral national anthem, proportionate % of males/females in power, the "people-kind" debacle, how Toronto gave power to BLM during the protest a couple of years ago (people do lump this into the Wynne, Trudeau Liberals group) etc... those are some cases of course, but to the normal populous they consider that to be part of the progressive/regressive/sjw trends.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Sarah89

How could some one like this even exist in politics period? Ten years ago such a person would never even be considered. He doesn't even have any real experience and he is not an educated man (only a high school diploma to his name).

Mike Harris was a PC, and while controversial he was at least experienced, educated and never got into this bizarre ''social conservatism''. It is frightening how backwards this Province has become if Doug Ford is what they want. I could see us veering into ''abortion reform'' and OHIP privatizations.

Doug Ford is very unpopular in Northern Ontario. I have a hard time finding anybody here who approves of him as Premier. All three of the PC MPPs in the North won on their own with their own names and Ford was no help to them.

Results for Northern Ontario:

NDP 8
PC 3
Lib 1

So I'm just showing that this Ford Nation thing didn't catch on here like it did in much of the South.

I do remember the first Minister of Education under the Mike Harris PCs being John Snobelen who never finished high school. That was really bad. Ford is obviously not well educated and it shows. It remains to be seen if he starts listening more to those around him in his cabinet who have political experience and know the limits. I wouldn't exactly call Mike Harris very educated but he's much more so than Ford.

Mike Harris did a number of cruel things that Ford has promised not to do. Harris cut social assistance payments by about 20%. His government also laid off 7000 public employees. Harris froze the minimum wage for the whole time they were in government, 8 years! Ford is freezing for a few years then having it adjusted for the cost of living.

As for other things, we'll have to wait and see. Harris had a clear printed platform that he mostly followed. Ford only had slogans and a few promises. No real platform or outlook to look at. That's what I find to be scary.

I could go on and on about many other issues but I'll keep it to this for now.

[Sarah89]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Doug Ford is very unpopular in Northern Ontario. I have a hard time finding anybody here who approves of him as Premier. All three of the PC MPPs in the North won on their own with their own names and Ford was no help to them.

Results for Northern Ontario:

NDP 8
PC 3
Lib 1

So I'm just showing that this Ford Nation thing didn't catch on here like it did in much of the South.

I do remember the first Minister of Education under the Mike Harris PCs being John Snobelen who never finished high school. That was really bad. Ford is obviously not well educated and it shows. It remains to be seen if he starts listening more to those around him in his cabinet who have political experience and know the limits. I wouldn't exactly call Mike Harris very educated but he's much more so than Ford.

Mike Harris did a number of cruel things that Ford has promised not to do. Harris cut social assistance payments by about 20%. His government also laid off 7000 public employees. Harris froze the minimum wage for the whole time they were in government, 8 years! Ford is freezing for a few years then having it adjusted for the cost of living.

As for other things, we'll have to wait and see. Harris had a clear printed platform that he mostly followed. Ford only had slogans and a few promises. No real platform or outlook to look at. That's what I find to be scary.

I could go on and on about many other issues but I'll keep it to this for now.

Yes Mike Harris has a legacy of being fiscally austere but don't think Ford won't make deep cuts. He will, and ''stupid cuts'' at that. Some of the cuts he will make will be whimsical and what he thinks ''will be good'' because Ford is an uneducated man as you of course know.

But here's where it gets worse... the social conservative aspect. Doug Ford is a supporter of the ''campaign life coalition'' an anti-abortion organization and has made promises to them. Undermining abortion rights does not happen in a ''loud'' fashion even with Ford's bumbling ineptness he would still never admit ''right out'' of what he was doing, it would be sneaky. Starting very gradually. It is the same with gay and trans rights and support.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Sarah89

Yes Mike Harris has a legacy of being fiscally austere but don't think Ford won't make deep cuts. He will, and ''stupid cuts'' at that. Some of the cuts he will make will be whimsical and what he thinks ''will be good'' because Ford is an uneducated man as you of course know.

But here's where it gets worse... the social conservative aspect. Doug Ford is a supporter of the ''campaign life coalition'' an anti-abortion organization and has made promises to them. Undermining abortion rights does not happen in a ''loud'' fashion even with Ford's bumbling ineptness he would still never admit ''right out'' of what he was doing, it would be sneaky. Starting very gradually. It is the same with gay and trans rights and support.

You are right about Ford trying to appeal to social conservatives and how he is trying to be sneaky. I don't think Ford really cares about the social issues but he's doing it because it is good for fundraising for his party. There are far-right people who have a lot of money are are willing to give lots to the PC Party if he does specific things to make them happy.

Elementary school teachers can no longer discuss same-sex relationships or LGBTQ2 issues. It may no longer be the case if the government's consultations result in anything but they were effective in removing those things for the time-being which pleased many social conservative supporters.

Abortion is more of a federal issue so I don't think that Ford can do much about it. Maybe something with funding but I would be very surprised if they took that on.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The middle class gap. It's well known. It's where they create lots of programs that help the poor, but set the income cutoff just high enough that most of the middle class can't take advantage of it.

Ok, so you say this, but:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Consider that for the price of a single EV tax credit, 8-10 people could get a full year of transit passes for free. So what's better, tax credits for Tesla buyers or putting that money in better public transit? Or how about actually building charging stations at all the en routes and helping utilities adapt the grid?

The only people I know personally who used that tax credit bought Nissan Leafs and Chevy Bolts. They were middle class.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Wynne decide to make university free for low income students. You know who that really pisses off? Low income BA/BSc holders. Now they get to compete with a flood of degree holders who had to do less to get those degrees and take on less debt, while they are still stuck paying OSAP. She could have chosen to make community college free instead. That would have been more sensible and created more skilled workers. But those SJW instincts took over....

Excellent point. We should follow the mantra of Slovenia, Newfoundland and Bernie Sanders and make post-secondary education as free as possible for as many people as possible.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So here's how it looks to the average middle class guy. Let's call him Joe. He makes about $70k a year as an mid level CGA. His wife makes about $40k per year supply teaching. They live in the suburbs with two cars, two kids and a dog.

Joe's next door neighbour, Brian, is a doctor. One day, while out mowing the lawn, Joe sees Brian's new car. Brian starts bragging to Joe all about his new Tesla. Tells Joe the best part is that he doesn't have to pay the high gas prices Joe has to pay any more and Kathleen Wynne sent him a $10 000 cheque (before the outcry) to help pay for it.

Why couldn't Joe get a Nissan Leaf though? This wasn't a good example to use imo. I make less than Hypothetical Joe but was looking forward to using the EV credit to get my next vehicle, which certainly wasn't going to be a Tesla.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The next day, Joe meets Susan, a pro-bono client of his, at the tax clinic where he volunteers. He's helping Susan do her taxes on the $50 000 she makes annually. They start chatting about Susan's daughter reaching university age. And he finds out that thanks to the Wynne government's recent announcement, Susan's daughter will go to university tuition free. He looks up the program and the online calculator and finds out that his own kids will get grants that are 70% lower and they'll have to pay nearly 60% of their own tuition. His kids would also get $4000 less in total financing than Susan. They won't even get OSAP to cover anywhere close to what the OSAP site says is the cost of university.

When I was university age I couldn't get OSAP because my dad owned money on his OSAP. I grew up poor. This is where my starting line was. Kathleen Wynne might not have helped Joe, but she helped me.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How do you think Joe is going to vote come election time?

Based on these anecdotes? The same way I am: Green or NDP.

Anyway, your argument is summed up as "she bought the wrong votes". OK.

Originally Posted by Djesus777

For starters, Bill C-16

Who does this hurt though? And how will Andrew Scheer reverse it?

Originally Posted by Djesus777

a gender-neutral national anthem

The song was originally gender neutral. Granted, it wasn't a national anthem yet, but its original lyrics were referring to Canadians in general, and not specifically to male Canadians.

Is Andrew Scheer going to change it back?

[/QUOTE]proportionate % of males/females in power[/QUOTE]

How exactly is this a bad thing, though? A board of a company is a lot different than the hierarchy of employees working within it, because a board is governance and oversight. This isn't "the best people doing this best work", this is "the group with the broadest experiences and insights to allow the corporation to take the most effective direction".

I sit on a board. Let me tell you: the most diversity you have at that table, the better the discussions, the broader the perspective, and the most successful the organization.

I agree that it shouldn't be staffed with women for women's sake, but a lot of boards have historically been staffed by men for men's sake (though it was an unspoken habit), and I am a firm believer that having diversity on a board makes a corporation smarter and stronger.

There can be exceptions: a woman's shelter doesn't necessarily need men on the board (though men can provide some insights they may overlook) and a men's underwear company doesn't need women on the board (though women can provide some insights they may overlook) but in general, it's advantageous to have a wide range of ideas present at the table in order to make the best decisions to ensure your corporation appears to the largest proportion of your target audience possible.

I bet you that if Simon's had more women on their board, they wouldn't have so many PR disasters.

Originally Posted by Djesus777

the "people-kind" debacle

That was fun! I got to change my user tag to "Trudeaupeopliac" for a few weeks.

Still, who does this hurt?

Originally Posted by Djesus777

how Toronto gave power to BLM during the protest a couple of years ago (people do lump this into the Wynne, Trudeau Liberals group) etc...

Are you referring to the Toronto Pride organization preventing police from participating in uniform in the parade in response to demands from BLM? Little bit of queer history for you: BLM and Gay Pride have the exact same origin story. They're both a protest against police brutality. The original gay pride parade in 1970 was a giant "fuck you" to the police. Police want to participate in a "fuck you" to themselves. And I disagree with BLM here: I think they should, but only once they fully understand why pride parades exist in the first place, and the major role their profession played in its development as a cultural phenomenon. (BTW, this paragraph contains the answer to the question of "why are there no straight pride parades?")

[Doady]

So Doug Ford's rise to power in Ontario was a reaction against Black Lives Matters and Trudeau changing the anthem. Thanks for your insight, Djesus777.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Doady

So Doug Ford's rise to power in Ontario was a reaction against Black Lives Matters and Trudeau changing the anthem. Thanks for your insight, Djesus777.

[Doady]

It's always funny seeing people pretending to be for "moderation" and then complain about the "regressive left" and "SJWs" at every opportunity. You aren't fooling anyone, Djesus777. This thread has nothing to do with Black Lives Matters or the gender-neutral anthem. Go whine somewhere else.

[Sarah89]

Originally Posted by Doady

It's always funny seeing people pretending to be for "moderation" and then complain about the "regressive left" and "SJWs" at every opportunity. You aren't fooling anyone, Djesus777. This thread has nothing to do with Black Lives Matters or the gender-neutral anthem. Go whine somewhere else.

They're largely influenced by the United States. ''Regressive left'' ''Lefty'' ''SJW'' are all American buzzwords that some Canadians with an identity crisis like to copy in order to make themselves feel pompously connected to the American ''right''.

There are some Canadians who believe certain American style conservative politics (excluding religiousness mostly) will put more money in their pockets if they try to bring certain ideas here. Here's the thing: It won't. Our economy will never be as vibrant as the U.S so even if we cut down social services to the nil, scrapped OHIP in Ontario we would never see American style republican wealth rise out of that for us.

Some Canadians like to pretend we have deep ''identity'' politics as well with the whole ''left'' and ''right'' thing. We do not. We never had a civil war like what the U.S went through that deeply influenced this ''Democrat'' and ''Republican'' division. Many of this is tied to slavery which Canada never had for as many years as the U.S or reaped the economic benefit from.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by vid

The only people I know personally who used that tax credit bought Nissan Leafs and Chevy Bolts. They were middle class.

I expect we'd see similar data in Canada:

https://www.dmv.com/blog/electric-ca...al-cars-521541

https://www.teslarati.com/survey-mod...ouble-model-s/

I strongly suspect that your neighbours are at least upper middle class. And they are anything but the norm.

Originally Posted by vid

Excellent point. We should follow the mantra of Slovenia, Newfoundland and Bernie Sanders and make post-secondary education as free as possible for as many people as possible.

We should follow the European model. Free, with heavy streaming. No pumping of literally hundreds of thousands of unemployable BAs and BScs per year.

Or we could make community college free for everyone, allowing anybody to gain actually employable skills and creating more bridge programs which let community college grads get degrees in 2-3 years of university.

Originally Posted by vid

Why couldn't Joe get a Nissan Leaf though? This wasn't a good example to use imo. I make less than Hypothetical Joe but was looking forward to using the EV credit to get my next vehicle, which certainly wasn't going to be a Tesla.

I agree with you. But human nature is what it is. People buy the cheapest car. Or they buy an SUV because they think they need the space. And if they think electrics, maybe they only think of Teslas they can't afford. I mean, it's not like car dealerships are redirecting buyers away from electrics or anything right?

https://qz.com/1309799/car-dealers-a...ic-car-buyers/

Originally Posted by vid

When I was university age I couldn't get OSAP because my dad owned money on his OSAP. I grew up poor. This is where my starting line was. Kathleen Wynne might not have helped Joe, but she helped me.

And you're not the median or mean voter. Joe is a lot closer to that.

Originally Posted by vid

Based on these anecdotes? The same way I am: Green or NDP.

Anyway, your argument is summed up as "she bought the wrong votes". OK.

That's correct. And that's what elections are about. The middle class votes in number that matter. It is what it is. You can choose to win an election or win the SJW principle trophy.

[Sarah89]

Also these SJW, ANTIFA and BLM subgroups in Canada popped up for much of the same reason: Influenced almost entirely by American media.

Jesus Christ. Do you really not know how little the U.S cares for Canada? they think nothing of us yet we emulate their divisive political movements adopting grief for our provinces and country. We don't need any of this crap at all. We need to be ourselves and develop a ''human first'' attitude - forget about all these labels and appreciate our humanity first and foremost.

Americans are the way they are because of their past. A past that was largely non existent in Canada.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I expect we'd see similar data in Canada:

https://www.dmv.com/blog/electric-ca...al-cars-521541

https://www.teslarati.com/survey-mod...ouble-model-s/

I strongly suspect that your neighbours are at least upper middle class. And they are anything but the norm.

Wrong! Thunder Bay is one of the poorest cities in Ontario, and I live in its poorest neighbourhood. So you're pretty wrong there. I've literally never seen a Tesla. Ever. Not once in my life. Lots of electric cars (Smart Cars, Bolts or Volts or whatever they're called, Leafs, Priuses, etc.) but never, ever a Tesla.

I do know upper middle class and upper class people through work but they're not friends. I don't think I have any friends making more than $80,000 a year; most make much less than that.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I agree with you. But human nature is what it is. People buy the cheapest car. Or they buy an SUV because they think they need the space. And if they think electrics, maybe they only think of Teslas they can't afford. I mean, it's not like car dealerships are redirecting buyers away from electrics or anything right?

Most people I know think of Teslas as futuristic fantasy luxury cars that might not even exist because, like me, they've never seen one. When they think electric cars, they think Smartcars and Priuses. If they didn't use that tax credit, it's not because they thought it was for luxury cars; it's because they didn't want a Prius or a Smartcar.

Ask one of my friend's what they think of when they hear the word "Tesla" and depending on age it's either going to be "crazy man shoots his car into space" or "Signs, Signs, Everywhere a Sign".

Ford will be producing an electric truck in 2020. By that point, my vehicle will be more than paid off and over a decade old. I was going to upgrade. Probably won't now.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And you're not the median or mean voter. Joe is a lot closer to that.

Oh, I know I'm not an average voter. I'm too informed to be average.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That's correct. And that's what elections are about. The middle class votes in number that matter. It is what it is. You can choose to win an election or win the SJW principle trophy.

But in 2014, Kathleen Wynne won both.

[Djesus777]

Originally Posted by Doady

So Doug Ford's rise to power in Ontario was a reaction against Black Lives Matters and Trudeau changing the anthem. Thanks for your insight, Djesus777.

I was responding to the "what made Trudeau/Wynne" SJW's and average citizens considered them that because of those factors, not because of Ford rising to power. Maybe you should learn how to read?

[Truenorth00]

It's conservatives that really look like the "Social Justice Warriors" these days. They are the one engaging in constant culture wars over immigration, gun rights, climate change denialism, a whole lot of anti-intellectualism, etc. And it's a losing formula, as the Republicans are going to learn on Tuesday in the US.

The GTA is due to become >50% of Ontario population by 2041. And the surrounding areas will add another 20%. If conservatives resort to fear mongering, they are toast, provincially and federally. Canada is not the US. We don't have heavily gerrymandered suburban ridings. We don't have voter ID laws aimed at suppression. Non-whites can vote here very easily. And they will not take kindly to being labeled as threats by xenophobes.

As a centrist/moderate, I sincerely hope Canada's conservatives don't learn the wrong lessons from Trump. He's last gasp of the failing xenophobic white working class Boomer. And he's going to ensure that Republican brand become utterly toxic for at least a generation.

Don't believe me? California offers a great lesson. It used to be reliably Republican state which produced two staunch conservative Republican presidents: Reagan and Nixon. Then Pete Wilson came along, sounding a lot like Trump. He won re-election too. But turned Latinos (many of who used to vote Republican before that), into such staunch Democrats that no Republican has won statewide office since Schwarzenegger. Trump is going to do to Millennials in the US, exactly what Wilson did to Latinos in California. And just as Millennials hit regular voting years in their 30s. When Trump is done, the Republican party is toast. This is the fate that awaits any party that trades short term gain for long term pain, by flirting with racists. I really hope, Canada's conservatives aren't that foolish.

[CityTech]

Before Ford kibboshed the rebates, a brand new Nissan Leaf was about the same price as those dumb SUVs that everyone is buying these days.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's conservatives that really look like the "Social Justice Warriors" these days. They are the one engaging in constant culture wars over immigration, gun rights, climate change denialism, a whole lot of anti-intellectualism, etc. And it's a losing formula, as the Republicans are going to learn on Tuesday in the US.

The GTA is due to become >50% of Ontario population by 2041. And the surrounding areas will add another 20%. If conservatives resort to fear mongering, they are toast, provincially and federally. Canada is not the US. We don't have heavily gerrymandered suburban ridings. We don't have voter ID laws aimed at suppression. Non-whites can vote here very easily. And they will not take kindly to being labeled as threats by xenophobes.

As a centrist/moderate, I sincerely hope Canada's conservatives don't learn the wrong lessons from Trump. He's last gasp of the failing xenophobic white working class Boomer. And he's going to ensure that Republican brand become utterly toxic for at least a generation.

Don't believe me? California offers a great lesson. It used to be reliably Republican state which produced two staunch conservative Republican presidents: Reagan and Nixon. Then Pete Wilson came along, sounding a lot like Trump. He won re-election too. But turned Latinos (many of who used to vote Republican before that), into such staunch Democrats that no Republican has won statewide office since Schwarzenegger. Trump is going to do to Millennials in the US, exactly what Wilson did to Latinos in California. And just as Millennials hit regular voting years in their 30s. When Trump is done, the Republican party is toast. This is the fate that awaits any party that trades short term gain for long term pain, by flirting with racists. I really hope, Canada's conservatives aren't that foolish.

I don't get it. What's the social justice dimension to the conservative approach to those issues? Those who decry "social justice warriors" are, logically, opposed to social justice, no?