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  #41  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2013, 7:44 PM
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SLC's "streetcar" opens this weekend, but it's not really a streetcar. It runs in an old freight corridor, not on the street. So it doesn't help us. But we don't need more streetcar examples, because we already have the existing Denver Colfax study, which is better than anything from another city. $40 million per mile for streetcar it is, unless someone can offer a compelling reason not to use that number. I was just filling out the first one on the list to show what sort of info we need.

We need the others.
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  #42  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2013, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
I think the streetcar stays on Colfax. 225 line will have a station literally over top of Colfax. Get off streetcar, go up the stairs, easy. There is no need to connect to the airport line on the east side. Guesstimate here, but I am certain the ridership demand for a one seat ride from the eastern half of the Colfax line directly to the airport (but which would not alternatively park-n-ride/bus at Colorado, or be unwilling to ride the 225 line up one stop) is not enough to justify another mile-plus of track. Nowhere close to justified.
Doesn't the 225 line cross over to the west side of 225 just before Fitz? Should be an easy transfer between the two, even if one is elevated and one is at grade.

edit: The LRT station at Colfax is elevated, similar to the Wadsworth station on the West line, so removed my previous comment.
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  #43  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2013, 8:19 PM
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Why limit streetcar comparisons to just the Mountain Best? What about the OKC streetcar as comparison? Or Austin? Or what St. Louis and Minneapolis did (granted, a bunch of what they did was built years ago).

I think that since other American cities outside the Mountain Best are adding rail infrastructure, we need to see how they came up with their plans. We can limit the discussion later, but let's gather as much info as possible now. Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Albuquerque (and Calgary and Edmonton, but Canada) are all fine, but the more info we have, esp from pier cities like MSP, the smarter we can be.
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  #44  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2013, 8:45 PM
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That's fine. I'm just saying the more comparable to Denver the better.

But we don't need more mixed-traffic streetcar comparisons. We need BRT and full-on transitway.
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  #45  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2013, 8:53 PM
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That's fine. I'm just saying the more comparable to Denver the better.

But we don't need more mixed-traffic streetcar comparisons. We need BRT and full-on transitway.

Fair 'nuff. I'll poke around and see what I can find, tonight.
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  #46  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2013, 8:54 PM
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Nevermind.. Already answered..
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  #47  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2013, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
SLC's "streetcar" opens this weekend, but it's not really a streetcar. It runs in an old freight corridor, not on the street. So it doesn't help us. But we don't need more streetcar examples, because we already have the existing Denver Colfax study, which is better than anything from another city. $40 million per mile for streetcar it is, unless someone can offer a compelling reason not to use that number. I was just filling out the first one on the list to show what sort of info we need.

We need the others.
I PM'd you and Ken. But for the public, I'd look at Seattle. Hillier, but very comparable in terms of where the lines are going and general costs. Tucson maybe.
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  #48  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2013, 11:06 PM
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Playing catch up now, have not had time for SSP the last few days:

Maybe a bit out of date (2005 with expansion in 2010) but since it is the most recent BRT that I have ridden here is the fact sheet from the MAX line in Kansas City.

http://www.kcata.org/documents/uploa...Fact_Sheet.pdf

2005 Portion
6 Miles BRT
3.75 dedicated lanes
40 Stations
13 vehicles

Cost:$21 million
Cost per mile:~3.5 million
2010 Expansion
13 Miles
47 Stations
14 vehicles
3 Park and Rides

Cost:$30.6 million
Cost Per Mile:~2.35 million
Both projects cite an 80/20 federal/local funding split, not sure what funding source was used but given the time frame it is likely some one time stimulus dollars were used, therefore it may not be a great source for determining available federal funding.
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  #49  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 6:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
I PM'd you and Ken. But for the public, I'd look at Seattle. Hillier, but very comparable in terms of where the lines are going and general costs. Tucson maybe.
Which part of Seattle's transit system, though? I'm looking at Seattle's Univ Link right now. Cost wise, the Univ Link is over $600,000,000 a mile. Granted, they needed to bore a tunnel up there in Seattle.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/WA_...k_complete.pdf
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  #50  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 1:28 PM
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The link is light rail.

What'd they pay for Lake Union, and what are they paying for First Hill? I guess these are both very short lines though. Maybe Portland too.

Tucson says $196 million for 3.9 miles. That's closer to $50 million, which I think is probably closer if you're including stations and everything else. Safer budget number, I think.
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  #51  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 5:28 PM
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The link is light rail.

What'd they pay for Lake Union, and what are they paying for First Hill? I guess these are both very short lines though. Maybe Portland too.

Tucson says $196 million for 3.9 miles. That's closer to $50 million, which I think is probably closer if you're including stations and everything else. Safer budget number, I think.
Good points. I'll see what those lines costed today.
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  #52  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 5:44 PM
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The Colfax Connections study is worthless unless we assume that the low figure is for mixed-traffic and the high figure is for a dedicated transit lane. This is an assumption that I would consider to be fairly inaccurate.

BRT: $2-20 million per mile

Enhanced Bus: $1-5 million per mile
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  #53  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 6:15 PM
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IIRC Colfax Corridor Connections BRT was a peak hour bus lane, and the high end of the range had to do with things like queue jumps, shelters, level boarding, etc.

For a dedicated transit lane, or a transitway I would look elsewhere.
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  #54  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 6:31 PM
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for Colfax (or other corridors) is it possible to double-track down the middle, but then open up that area for left-hand turns between trains (limited to areas with no stations)? kind of a double-suicide lane...but I think I've seen this in SF.
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  #55  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 7:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcp View Post
for Colfax (or other corridors) is it possible to double-track down the middle, but then open up that area for left-hand turns between trains (limited to areas with no stations)? kind of a double-suicide lane...but I think I've seen this in SF.
I think double track would be a bit wide for Colfax? Or can it be narrowed more than this?

New Orleans streetcar (Note: this isn't mixed traffic):



EDIT:

This is what we are really looking for right?



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  #56  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 7:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcp View Post
for Colfax (or other corridors) is it possible to double-track down the middle, but then open up that area for left-hand turns between trains (limited to areas with no stations)? kind of a double-suicide lane...but I think I've seen this in SF.
That might actually operate slower than just having the train on the right side - it'll get stuck behind left turn traffic. And would certainly cost much more - you'd need real stations, as opposed to being able to do it curbside with bulb-outs. I think center-running is only a good idea if we are talking a real transitway, and that seems unlikely.
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  #57  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 8:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
That might actually operate slower than just having the train on the right side - it'll get stuck behind left turn traffic. And would certainly cost much more - you'd need real stations, as opposed to being able to do it curbside with bulb-outs. I think center-running is only a good idea if we are talking a real transitway, and that seems unlikely.
For comparison's sake, Boston's Green Lines are isolated and in the middle of the street. For example, the BU East station, which is here:



Source
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  #58  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 8:33 PM
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It's possible to do both, depending on the situation, ROW, etc. Center creates a different set of obstacles, but it's doable. Won't know anything until they get to 30% design.

Though it really doesn't matter at this point. We're getting into the weeds a bit. $40-50million is fine regardless of center/outside for this exercise.

Let's move on to BRT.

The closest thing to what we might see in Denver, that comes to mind, is Cleveland's Healthline.
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  #59  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2013, 8:45 PM
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What is the point/benefit of including BRT lines in this proposal as opposed to just focusing on the streetcar lines? Is it mainly to have a larger service area, thus increasing revenue/taxable areas? I feel like the the whole city could get behind a citywide tax if it takes care of Colfax, Broadway, Chery Creek, and Highhland alone as long as the lines tie in well with existi rail and bus lines.
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  #60  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2013, 2:34 AM
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Seattle has a bunch of official links for their South Lake Union Trolley (S.L.U.T.) For finance purposes.

Original S.L.U.T. plan: http://ctod.org/pdfs/2005SouthLakeUn...rFinancing.pdf

Operating Budget 2011-2014 http://www.seattle.gov/financedepart...AR_423_429.pdf

2011 Budget: http://www.seattle.gov/financedepart...SPORTATION.pdf


I think their S.L.U.T. costed $52-56 million for the first 1.3 miles.
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