CFL Current/Future Franchises

[Mister F]

If the CFL can ever be made relevant in Toronto then the rest of southern Ontario will follow and teams in London and KW could be realistic. But not until then.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

(although this would mean 7 teams in the east and 5 in the west)

I never understood the desire to have east and west evenly split in North American sports. The east has twice the population of the west, it could theoretically have twice as many teams. They don't do things that way on any other continent.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by king10

Call it what you want, the CFL isn't putting a second team in Toronto, and for good reason.

Whats that?

[le calmar]

The NHL is no longer evenly split... until the next expansion I guess (most likely in Las Vegas and Seattle) Right now having Nashville in the West is weird. Chicago and St.Louis is stretching the definition of "West", but I suppose it's alright. Fortunately Detroit and Columbus are back in the East.

[osmo]

The CFL does not help either in it's structure on the season. Having "divisions" plus "conferences" in a 9 team league is a joke, also having 60% of the league in the playoffs makes little sense either. It should just be a performance table as such in European soccer.

It becomes hard for the press and people to take this serious in Toronto when one year a .485 Argos team can host a playoff game and then the next year with the same record be out of the playoffs. The season becomes almost meaningless. Why would a casual fan follow it if there is 60/40 chance of the playoffs each year. Just tune in late October and see where the chips fall.

The epic drop from the high of the 100th Grey Cup to barley having 10k for the next home opener is proof of that. You can't sustain those gimmicks here for long.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by osmo

The epic drop from the high of the 100th Grey Cup to barley having 10k for the next home opener is proof of that. You can't sustain those gimmicks here for long.

17,750 isn't very high but it's not "barely 10,000". Come on let's be real here.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

17,750 isn't very high but it's not "barely 10,000". Come on let's be real here.

It could be my mistake. I remember it being not much at or over 10k that immediate home game the following year.

The "17k" number was bogus. I remember watching that game and it had the same crowds as an old weak Blue Jays crowd from the dark days. The Argos made up a bogus number to save face. Many tickets were given out free.

17k is what the Argos average this year. Compare a average Argo game to that crowd, there were not the same.

I cant trust what these teams say for attendance. Many will count every human in the building, even the dude making hot dogs, as part of the attendance. Few will honestly report what the actual ticket scan tally is. If the expected average is higher they will just say that. Only 16 and 17k are showing up for Leaf games thus year. Each game is technically "sold out" but the building is only full for teams like the Red Wings. The Anaheim game for instance we only say 16,500. Compare to the Raptors playoffs of a sellout and standing room sales of around 21k. Big difference.

Maybe the Argos had 17k tickets printed and out in circulation (either payed or comp) but no more then 10k were there that day in 2013. I've been in this business to long now, they were lying about those seat numbers.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by osmo

The CFL does not help either in it's structure on the season. Having "divisions" plus "conferences" in a 9 team league is a joke, also having 60% of the league in the playoffs makes little sense either. It should just be a performance table as such in European soccer.

It becomes hard for the press and people to take this serious in Toronto when one year a .485 Argos team can host a playoff game and then the next year with the same record be out of the playoffs. The season becomes almost meaningless. Why would a casual fan follow it if there is 60/40 chance of the playoffs each year. Just tune in late October and see where the chips fall.

The epic drop from the high of the 100th Grey Cup to barley having 10k for the next home opener is proof of that. You can't sustain those gimmicks here for long.

I get what you're saying about the separate divisions but it's basically a holdover from the days when east and west were entirely separate leagues. The Grey Cup has traditionally been an east-west showdown, although that doesn't mean much anymore these days given that anyone who isn't yet a senior citizen has grown up watching fully interlocking schedules. I get the impression that the CFL is going to move to eliminate the divisions sooner or later... the crossover was a soft step in that direction.

As to the regular season being meaningless, I'm not sure how it's any more or less meaningless than any other league's regular season. Either you want to watch the sport or you don't. In the NHL you have 53% of the teams making the playoffs. What makes that respectable but 67% of the teams making the playoffs (as in the CFL) is supposedly a joke as you imply? Sounds pretty arbitary to me... there is no real difference between 53 vs. 67 per cent. And you can bet that the NHL will feel pressure to expand the number of teams making the playoffs if the league grows and the list of teams with decade-long failures to make the playoffs grows.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by esquire

I get what you're saying about the separate divisions but it's basically a holdover from the days when east and west were entirely separate leagues. The Grey Cup has traditionally been an east-west showdown, although that doesn't mean much anymore these days given that anyone who isn't yet a senior citizen has grown up watching fully interlocking schedules. I get the impression that the CFL is going to move to eliminate the divisions sooner or later... the crossover was a soft step in that direction.

As to the regular season being meaningless, I'm not sure how it's any more or less meaningless than any other league's regular season. Either you want to watch the sport or you don't. In the NHL you have 53% of the teams making the playoffs. What makes that respectable but 67% of the teams making the playoffs (as in the CFL) is supposedly a joke as you imply? Sounds pretty arbitary to me... there is no real difference between 53 vs. 67 per cent. And you can bet that the NHL will feel pressure to expand the number of teams making the playoffs if the league grows and the list of teams with decade-long failures to make the playoffs grows.

Further to that - the NHL in the 80's and early 90's had 16/21 teams (76.2%) make the playoffs. Was the NHL a joke too?

Having 6 teams make the CFL playoffs is reasonable. It rewards first place teams with a bye in the first week of playoffs and gives the lesser teams something to play for (hope) longer into the season.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by le calmar

The NHL is no longer evenly split... until the next expansion I guess (most likely in Las Vegas and Seattle) Right now having Nashville in the West is weird. Chicago and St.Louis is stretching the definition of "West", but I suppose it's alright. Fortunately Detroit and Columbus are back in the East.

I just don't see the issue with Detroit and Columbus, or even Toronto, being in the west. Look at the KHL - the bulk of their teams are in the western half of Russia and the east/west conference divide is well west of the Urals. Of course Kazan and Ufa are in no way considered eastern Russia, but it doesn't matter because like most leagues, the teams are where the demand and people are. The conferences don't have to follow traditional definitions of east and west and the teams don't have to look evenly spread out on a map.

[Dalreg]

Come on folks, wake up and share what you are smoking. If Australia, at two thrids of Canada's population can support the AFL and 18 teams, then Canada can support more than 9 fucking teams.

Sick and tired of all the excuses. Melbourne can support 10 teams with less of Toronto's population. Sorry Canada, put up or shut the fuck up.....

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Re AUSTRALIA

The AFL and the local Rugby league have far less competition, though, do they not? What are the 'big' spectator sports in Australia? Cricket, AFL, Rugby League, soccer...can't think of anything else. The CFL, on the other hand, has to compete with MLB, NHL, NBA, MLS not to mention that football behemoth south of the border. That's a tough one.

[Guelphite]

Originally Posted by esquire

I always thought of Guelph as a) too small, and b) too close to the GTA's orbit to be a realistic expansion city.

In all of Southern Ontario, the only realistic sites are suburban Toronto (which won't happen while the Argos remain a shambles), London and K-W. Windsor arguably has the population to do it but it's a NFL market for all intents and purposes.

Even in a best case scenario where the CFL became a huge deal in Southern Ontario, I couldn't see more than those three markets being added in the region.

I don't think anyone suggested that Guelph is a possible expansion site. It's too small on it's own...like Moncton is too small. But Guelph is only 20 minutes from KW and an hour from TO and 45 min from Hamilton...meaning that KW, Cambridge and Guelph are closer to each other and a separate market from Hamilton and TO. KW can support a team if it were regional and included Cambrige and Guelph. Over 650,000 people now in these 4 cities that are all very close and separate and unique from TO and Hamilton. All fast growing cities. Should be a no brainier in 10 years when there are 750,000 people and they are even closer together.

[Guelphite]

Originally Posted by king10

Hamilton has its own distinct idendity compared to Toronto. Does KW? Maybe im not from there. Maybe it could work.

Also makes a difference when the Ticats have over 100 years of history engrained into the city.... not an expansion.

Yes, of course KW has it's own identity. That was my point. It is further from TO than Hamilton is; but for some reason people seem to think that it is too close to the GTA to support it's own CFL market.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

I wonder. The Australian example is quite unique with its AFL-Rugby divide.

The AFL was pretty much a Melbourne league with a few teams elsewhere. Over the last 20 years it's attempted to become less Melbourne focused with decent results. It's still a distant 2nd in Sydney though. Melbourne fanatism for the AFL is similar to Regina fanatism for the CFL but we're talking about a population of 4.5 million.... hence the 9 local teams.

It goes to show that a league can prosper without being that relevant in the nation's biggest city, but it does need to be strong in a big market. As much as Saskatchewan has done for the CFL it's not big enough to accomplish this on its own.

The AFL has a massive advantage over the CFL. Sure it sees competition from rugby, but it will never face the daunting prospect of going up against the most powerful league in the history of sports. Having the NFL on our doorstep forces us to raise our game, but there's only so much one can do. The CFL's predicament is not of its own making. It happened to exist in a nation of only 36 million people attempting to exist next to a similar league catering to 320 million people. Most leagues in the world would have gone belly up already trying to co-exist with the NFL.

You can bet your bottom dollar if Canada had 320 million people and the US 36 million, the position of each league would be reversed.

[osmo]

Football culture in America is another beast. modest markets in the mid-west and south are boosted by football fanatics.

In Texas their State HS football championship is bigger then our Greg Cup. 80,000 attend the game and millions watch all over on TV in Texas and regionally.

It can't solely be tied to the population differences as much smaller and desolate places then all current/prospective CFL markets will still get 15-20k for HS football on Fridays. The only equivalent is hockey and even that is not as crazy as football in the states. The CHL would be out best comparative.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by osmo

Football culture in America is another beast. modest markets in the mid-west and south are boosted by football fanatics.

In Texas their State HS football championship is bigger then our Greg Cup. 80,000 attend the game and millions watch all over on TV in Texas and regionally.

It can't solely be tied to the population differences as much smaller and desolate places then all current/prospective CFL markets will still get 15-20k for HS football on Fridays. The only equivalent is hockey and even that is not as crazy as football in the states. The CHL would be out best comparative.

Let's not get carried away here. The all time record for the Texas HS football championships is on the order of 54,000. Still an extremely impressive number, but it's definitely not 80,000 every year. There have been 13 Texas HS football games ever with a recorded attendance greater than 40,000 according to this website: http://txprepsfootball.com/archives/state-records

As for individual high schools, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find one that gets more than 10,000 for all but the most exceptional games. That's not to say that they aren't well supported, but the whole "everyone in town comes out" phenomenon is what you see in smaller towns, not the cities.

No question that Texas supports HS football passionately, but the idea that random Texas high schools routinely outdraw CFL teams is absurd.

[svlt]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Come on folks, wake up and share what you are smoking. If Australia, at two thrids of Canada's population can support the AFL and 18 teams, then Canada can support more than 9 fucking teams.

Sick and tired of all the excuses. Melbourne can support 10 teams with less of Toronto's population. Sorry Canada, put up or shut the fuck up.....

Have to agree with this one. This will probably sound arbitrary and silly, but as a consumer of spectator sports I have no interest in following a 9-team league with 6 teams that make it in the playoffs even though I already have a local team to cheer for. I think CFL will not be able to gain any my attention until it has a proper even 10 teams in its stable, with 6 teams representing 60% playoff admission. Only then will it draw some of my time away from NFL Sundays.

[isaidso]

So just adding 1 team will change the CFL from ignored to on your radar screen? If you're not watching with 9 teams, I doubt you'll watch with 10, 11, or 12.

[svlt]

Maybe.

I move around Canada too often to really have anything "local" but I do try to support as many Canadian products as I can. 6/9 teams heading to the POs still doesn't jive with me. I play in local leagues bigger than that. Many countries have pro leagues of varying sports of over 12 teams with less than half the population of Canada.

I don't boycott the CFL. I watch the Grey Cup annually. That's about it. All I'm saying is it'll generate more interest from me to follow the whole season if there was actually something balanced and less bush-league to it. One extra team above a field of 9 is actually a huge deal statistically - 10% more, and has a far bigger impact to the league than adding an extra team to a 30/32 team MLB, NHL, NBA, NFL or even the 20 team MLS. A drop in the bucket.

Virtually every country in the world has a soccer league that has like an even 10 or 12 teams. I can't see why it's so hard for Canada to prop up a 10 team league it can proudly showcase. As it stands, I'm a fan of it being a Canadian product and a fan of the local fervor for (whichever city I'm in at the moment as long as it's not Toronto) the Grey Cup. I'm not a fan at all of the league. One team, coast to coast representation and more palatable playoff odds probably will change that. Might even buy a ticket to a regular season game for once.

[esquire]

^ Someone tell the Leafs and Habs to take down their pre-1967 Stanley Cup banners since the NHL was just some bush league back then with only 6 teams and 4 allowed into the playoffs.

I mean, Maurice Richard was basically a glorified beer leaguer... get him out of the hall of fame!