Calgary Roads

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Well if you use 2000 litres a year for your car, how much more would you also use for non-vehicular use? 1%, .1%. Seriously, the amount of gas used for things other than car/truck transportation is minimal. And as for your outboard motor, buy it at the lake or in some small town on the way to the lake. Ditto for the chainsaw and generator.

Well if you live in Airdrie you’re already free loading of the citizens in Calgary who pay for the minimal snow removal we have today. Why should we pay more for snow removal through any form of taxation just to make your drive home easier??

That’s why I’m advocating a local taxation – money is collected locally and spent locally – it is not funneled through general revenue in Edmonton or Ottawa.

Except that unlike blank media, almost all gas sold in the city of Calgary is used to power vehicles on the same roads requiring snow removal. How would using general property taxes be any fairer?? In the last month I have probably driven less than 100 kms in Calgary and didn't drive once during any of the recent snow storms. Why should I have to pay for the suburbanites to have a nice drive home when it snows??

Anyway, a proposal like a local surtax on gas sold in Calgary – which IMHO is a great idea to fund snow removal – can’t happen since the city doesn’t have the authority to implement it. As such, our only options are to increase general property taxes (and provide better snow removal to allow the residents in surrounding towns to get out of Calgary quicker), cut back spending elsewhere (who needs pools and science centres plus the city is SOOOOO inefficient in its spending that there must be hundreds of millions available to spend more on roads) or live with the current situation of having 2-3 days a year (and sometimes not at all) where snow is bad on our roads and learn how to drive in winter.

I have been driving in winter conditions in Calgary since 1994 and can honestly say that overall, the situation is no worse than winters in Ottawa or Montreal. While some things are better in those cities (which spend a shit load more than Calgary for snow removal) I’ve also seen Ottawa still paralyzed 2 days after a massive snow dump.

And while winter tires are great, as others have stated, in Calgary it would be hard to legislate the time of year when they would be required since we can have winter in up to 9 months, plus the morons who drive like it was summer with all seasons would continue to do so with their winters – and they’d still be the morons causing most of the accidents.

It doesn't matter where you live or how much you drive, you're still impacted by people not being able to get to work in a timely manner, go shopping, etc. If the overall economy is impacted then you're impacted. If you want to boil this issue down to the individual level then I'm sure the vast majority of people will say they don't want their taxes funding transit, definitely not bike lanes, etc. The bottomline is that it's the City's responsibility to keep the roads in good driving conditions and if they can't do the job then contract the work out to the private sector. It's a good thing the City doesn't run the education system because I'm sure we'd have people like Lowe and Hodges saying that an elementary school education is enough and that there's no need for people to need more than a sixth grade education.

[Stang]

^^ Absolutely agree Shreddog. Most people say that they want better snow removal, but don't you dare try and raise my taxes!! (Grumble, grumble... pedestrian bridges... grumble, grumble... silly hall)

While I'm a fan of roundabouts and what they can do for traffic, I can imagine that they present a bit of a problem for snow removal. Maybe with a few more million dollars we can hire some English drivers to drive the snowplows.

[freeweed]

Yeah, I gotta admit that while I'm a big fan of roundabouts, the city really needs to focus on these when we get snow. There's just no way for your average car to deal with them.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

It doesn't matter where you live or how much you drive, you're still impacted by people not being able to get to work in a timely manner, go shopping, etc. If the overall economy is impacted then you're impacted. If you want to boil this issue down to the individual level then I'm sure the vast majority of people will say they don't want their taxes funding transit, definitely not bike lanes, etc.

Exactly. And since some of the other posters in this thread have ALREADY advocated shutting pools and reducing the scope of the Science centre in order to fund snow removal and as I am user of both of those services, I believe it is fair for me to say that snow removal is a low priority to me.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

The bottomline is that it's the City's responsibility to keep the roads in good driving conditions and if they can't do the job then contract the work out to the private sector.

But it is your opinion that the city does do a bad job, not mine. In fact I think they do a good job for the taxes I pay.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

It's a good thing the City doesn't run the education system because I'm sure we'd have people like Lowe and Hodges saying that an elementary school education is enough and that there's no need for people to need more than a sixth grade education.

But the GOVERNMENT DOES run the education system. Are you trying to say that Province should be responsible for snow removal in the city?? Or how about private industry - which will result in a user pay system whereby someone who lives in Farorama hills pays more for snow removal since they drive more on roads from which the snow was removed??

Again, it is my opinion that overall the city does a good job on snow removal. And for what I pay for it, I am very happy.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Yeah, I gotta admit that while I'm a big fan of roundabouts, the city really needs to focus on these when we get snow. There's just no way for your average car to deal with them.

Like I said earlier, the new one on my block is a pure clusterf*#k to the nth degree. Not only the snow barriers in it, but some dip wad forgot to remove the previous stops signs on 2nd street so the intersection is neither fish nor fowl. I have seen more near hits since it became a roundabout then I ever did as a cross controled intersection.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

I love it!

Don't forget that all the extra gasoline burned = more C02 = no snow

That's what they WANT you to believe!!

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Like I said earlier, the new one on my block is a pure clusterf*#k to the nth degree. Not only the snow barriers in it, but some dip wad forgot to remove the previous stops signs on 2nd street so the intersection is neither fish nor fowl. I have seen more near hits since it became a roundabout then I ever did as a cross controled intersection.

are you talking 2nd st and about.. 23 ave NW? I'm a block from there, and noticed they left the stop signs up..

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Exactly. And since some of the other posters in this thread have ALREADY advocated shutting pools and reducing the scope of the Science centre in order to fund snow removal and as I am user of both of those services, I believe it is fair for me to say that snow removal is a low priority to me.

You can say whatever you want. But I think it's hard to argue with the importance of keeping our roads in the best condition possible to keep our economy rolling along. If the economy suffers then we have less chance of getting things like the Science Center, etc. I'm not advocating the Science Center be scaled back. In fact, I would scale it up big time to make a real attraction and educational facility.

Originally Posted by shreddog

But it is your opinion that the city does do a bad job, not mine. In fact I think they do a good job for the taxes I pay.

We'll have to disagree here. There's been too many times where they've been much too late to get their butts out there after it starts to snow and that has nothing to do with the size of their budget. It's been a badly managed service the last 5 to 10 years and it's getting worse.

Originally Posted by shreddog

But the GOVERNMENT DOES run the education system. Are you trying to say that Province should be responsible for snow removal in the city?? Or how about private industry - which will result in a user pay system whereby someone who lives in Farorama hills pays more for snow removal since they drive more on roads from which the snow was removed??

I was referring to the "City" running the education system. As for snow clearing, I would prefer the work to be contracted out. Not sure why you think this would result in a user pay system as that doesn't happen when the Province contracts out the work for provincial roads. The City could contract out the work for two years and set the standards to be met. Every two years the contract would come up for renewal and this would allow other companies to bid and for citizens to give feedback on how the current firm was doing.

Originally Posted by shreddog

Again, it is my opinion that overall the city does a good job on snow removal. And for what I pay for it, I am very happy.

It used to be a lot better and "urban sprawl" has nothing to do with the worsening service.

[crane_guy]

i changed my mind, the city does an amazing job with snow removal! they have been plowing the streets where i live for the last 2 nights ! haha

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[Full Mountain]

So a question for you proponents of snow tires....if they have such a dramatic difference...when is my insurance company going to start requiring me to have them....isn't that a more effective method than having another law for the police to enforce?

As well here's an idea on how to collect money to clear streets...every vehicle that is registered in Calgary and surrounding area has a GPS transmitter on board, the kilometers driven are then collected and similar to the property tax system the tax burden for all road related costs are spread over all users (ie total revenue needed divided by the total kilometers driven by vehicles in Calgary equals the tax rate) then Finkprof's gas for his lawnmowers and snow blowers doesn't cost him any more than it does now, and the extra money is covered by those that need the streets cleared not those that don't

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

I run a landscaping and lawn care business and I use lots of gas on equipment. I also run gas-powered snow blowers in the winter to clear sidewalks for some clients. I use my outboard motor for my boat on Lake Bonavista which is in the city. I use gas-powered generator to run a stereo and coffee maker that I use when playing ice hockey on an outdoor rink within city limits. I do use my chainsaw mostly outside city limits, but sometimes I just like to fire it up and run around my (Calgary) neighbourhood with a hockey mask on.

I forgot to mention that I like to huff a lot of gas too. I sometimes combine that with my chainsaw fun.

I don't see why I should have to pay a snow tire tax on gas for all the gas I buy that isn't used in a car.

Finkprof - all valid points. Especially for pointing out that no matter how well planned a tax system is, there will always be cases of it being unfair. If instead of a gas tax, we just added one percent to municipal taxes to pay for snow removal I would pay about double of what friends of mine who live in Farhaven would pay since my taxes are nearly double theirs, yet they would benefit significantly more from plowed roads since their drive home from DT is about 15+ kms and I am less than 2 kms from the Bow. Is that fair?? And let's not even talk about non-Calgarians use of plowed roads!

Now if a gas tax was implemented (again it can't be, but let's pretend) a special loop hole could be created to provide credit for those who use gas for purposes other than vehicular transportation, but considering that this would likely constitute less than 1% of all gas purchased, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Anyway, since I get to play God this week and I think Calgary's snow removal strategy is just fine, nothing will change!

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

So a question for you proponents of snow tires....if they have such a dramatic difference...when is my insurance company going to start requiring me to have them....isn't that a more effective method than having another law for the police to enforce?

Actually my insurance (The Personal) does offer a discount if you have snow tires (though how can they be sure you're using them??) and if your car is an AWD/4WD.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

are you talking 2nd st and about.. 23 ave NW? I'm a block from there, and noticed they left the stop signs up..

24th Ave and 2nd St NW, SE corner of the schoolyard for Ecole de la Rose Sauvage, on the side where all the buses drop off and pick up. F'ng brilliant!

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

You can say whatever you want. But I think it's hard to argue with the importance of keeping our roads in the best condition possible to keep our economy rolling along.

Exactly what does the bolded part mean?? Are you saying that cost should not be an issue, as that is normally what best possible means. Actually, given a cost benefit of the taxes I pay in Calgary versus those that I paid in Ottawa versus those I pay in Toronto (I still own a house there) I think I get the best value here in Calgary. But then again, that is only my opinion.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

We'll have to disagree here. There's been too many times where they've been much too late to get their butts out there after it starts to snow and that has nothing to do with the size of their budget. It's been a badly managed service the last 5 to 10 years and it's getting worse.

Have there been screw ups? Sure. Have there been times where salting and sanding crews were late on the Queensway meaning it took 2 hours to get to Kanata? Damn right. Or other times when the snow removal was so bad that Greenbank and Woodroofe were parking lots from Barrhaven to Carling?? Hell yes!!! Oh wait, I'm talking about Ottawa - a city roughly the same size of Calgary with over 3 times the snow removal budget of Calgary. Yet for some reason they too have delays were people are late to work or home for dinner. A place where traffic comes to a standstill during an exceptional ice/snow storm. A place that knows how to remove snow, yet still suffers delays. And interestingly enough, most of my friends in Ottawa all believe that the service there has also gotten worse the past 10 years. Maybe Global Warming is making snowstorms harder to predict??

Originally Posted by Corndogger

As for snow clearing, I would prefer the work to be contracted out. Not sure why you think this would result in a user pay system as that doesn't happen when the Province contracts out the work for provincial roads. The City could contract out the work for two years and set the standards to be met. Every two years the contract would come up for renewal and this would allow other companies to bid and for citizens to give feedback on how the current firm was doing.

It's not who does the snow removal, it's the policy and funding that is in place. I don't think that Bob's plowing would be any better with the same amount of money or strategy. Nor do I think that Bob would be any better at predicting abnormal temperature swings. But then again, Tom might, so we only have to wait 2 years.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

It used to be a lot better and "urban sprawl" has nothing to do with the worsening service.

While it may have been better before 1994, I can honestly say that since February 1994 (that's when I moved here the first time) I think snow removal has been quite good and has been consistant - at least in the main part of the city as I can't speak for the 'burbs.

Anway, opinions are like assholes; Everyone has one. Obviously you and I see very differently on this subject, and as I respect your right to feel it's bad and getting worse, please respect my belief that it is fine and a good value.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Actually my insurance (The Personal) does offer a discount if you have snow tires (though how can they be sure you're using them??) and if your car is an AWD/4WD.

They deny your claim if it turns out you didn't have them on, during whatever time period they have as appropriate for winter tires. Some might just pro-rate the amount you get paid based on the discount (ie: 10% discount, you only get 90% of your car paid in a total loss scenario).

And yes, it's very easy for an insurance company to determine if you had them on at the time of the accident.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by freeweed

They deny your claim if it turns out you didn't have them on, during whatever time period they have as appropriate for winter tires. Some might just pro-rate the amount you get paid based on the discount (ie: 10% discount, you only get 90% of your car paid in a total loss scenario).

And yes, it's very easy for an insurance company to determine if you had them on at the time of the accident.

Oh I know that it's easy for them to know (they do know All afterall), but I do have this mental image of some idiot in a car accident in January trying to jack up his car to swap his all seasons for winters!!!

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

I obviously don't don't own all those things or do all the things I said. I was just having some fun making this point.

Furthermore, I honestly think all this snow clearing talk is just hullabaloo. I noticed it really got worked up last year. There's been a couple "perfect storm" situations that the best and most expensive snow clearing systems in the world would have had a hell of a time responding to. The current situation is fine and most of this "controversy" is just based on malarky. People are frustrated, that's understandable, but like I say, there's been a couple poorly-timed storms/conditions the past couple years and not much could be done about it in a timely manner.

Ahhh, I really did hope you huffed gas than ran around the neighbourhood in a hockey mask and a chainsaw!!!

Anyway, I hope our banter reminds people of the challenges in running a city - yes it snows in Calgary and yes the city has a job in maintaining accessibility on the roads. That said, the city doesn't have a bottomless pit (taxpayers!) to draw from and even one of the best financed snow removal regimes in Canada (Ottawa) still suffers during exceptional situations.

[SubwayRev]

One thing I don't think anybody has mentioned in the road clearing discussion is the use of salt. The reason are roads aren't completely clear a few days after a storm, is that the snow is frozen to the road. When a grader comes by, it only sciffs the surface of the ice pack. In Ottawa or Montreal, they don't pour gravel on the road, they use salt. The snow melts, and when a grader comes by, almost all the snow is cleared, as it is more slush than snow.

Having said that, I wouldn't support the use of salt on our roads at all. The damage done to your car alone isn't worth it, and for the most part in Calgary, it isn't necessary, as none of our snow is that 'old' to begin with.

And for two cents, I'm in the camp that our snow removal for the most part is fine, and I wouldn't be interested in paying more to see 'improved' service.