VIA Rail and the High Frequency Rail Myth - 25% Reduced Trip Times

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If VIA hits the 2.5 hrs pledged on Toronto-Ottawa, it would be competitive with air, given the location of the Ottawa airport and the double transfer required to get downtown, and the location of Pearson in GTA.

Who flies to Person if they are going to downtown Toronto these days? Even still, a 2.5 train ride (if VIA can do it) is very competitive with flights to Billy Bishop. Having said that, VIA's not targeting the airlines, but drivers.

If VIA hits 4 hrs on Toronto-Montreal while maintaining the same fares, they will decimate the bus industry and actually get some people moving over from driving.

And if they get the 1hr and 20 mins between Ottawa and Montreal and hanve hourly frequencies? Ottawa-Montreal will become commutable.

To achieve those times they will need to average 160 km/h between Toronto and Ottawa and 150 km/h (unless they use a shorter route) from Ottawa to Montreal. That's faster than they currently do, but not in the realm of HSR. More important than speed is frequency and reliability.

We can spend $4-6 billion on high frequency rail or $12-15 billion on high speed rail. Nobody wants to spend $12-15 billion, so high frequency rail it is. If you can find a way to make the $6-10 billion additional cost that would be needed to upgrade from HFR to HSR, VIA will happily build HSR.

The other thing is, I can't think of any country in the "west" that has built HSR where they didn't previously have frequent train service. HFR is a good stepping stone to HSR. I would take HFR (even if they don't meet their projected travel times) over a continuous stream of studies about HSR that never get funded.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Who flies to Person if they are going to downtown Toronto these days?

Corporate travel contracts?

Originally Posted by roger1818

Even still, a 2.5 train ride (if VIA can do it) is very competitive with flights to Billy Bishop. Having said that, VIA's not targeting the airlines, but drivers.

I get they aren't targeting drives. But even if you departing from the Island, with check in time and with travel time from airport in Ottawa, you're easily over 2 hrs total. So if they can get that rail trip time under 3 hrs for a cost that's even close to today, they'll divert a lot of customers from Porter.

Originally Posted by roger1818

To achieve those times they will need to average 160 km/h between Toronto and Ottawa and 150 km/h (unless they use a shorter route) from Ottawa to Montreal. That's faster than they currently do, but not in the realm of HSR. More important than speed is frequency and reliability.

Never said it was in the realm of HSR. On other forums, I've read that the rules don't require full segregation until over 125 mph. That's closer to 200 kph operating speed. Add in the few limited stops they have planned, and it's easy to see them hitting 150-160 kph average, even with slowdowns in urban areas.


VIA's frequency on the corridor is already decent. Something like 9 trains a day. Of course, getting to hourly and simply have a schedule that is 90% accurate would be a gamechanger in and of themselves.

Originally Posted by roger1818

The other thing is, I can't think of any country in the "west" that has built HSR where they didn't previously have frequent train service. HFR is a good stepping stone to HSR. I would take HFR (even if they don't meet their projected travel times) over a continuous stream of studies about HSR that never get funded.

Yep. This is exactly why I take issue with posts like these whining about the plan not being fast enough. Ummm would you rather what we have now? I am starting to wonder if HSR advocates actually care about good train service or just enjoy being armchair critics who advocate.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Corporate travel contracts?

In which case, they won't be able to use VIA either.

I get they aren't targeting drives. But even if you departing from the Island, with check in time and with travel time from airport in Ottawa, you're easily over 2 hrs total. So if they can get that rail trip time under 3 hrs for a cost that's even close to today, they'll divert a lot of customers from Porter.

They are targeting drivers, though I think that is what you mean't to say.

Never said it was in the realm of HSR.

Wasn't trying to imply you were. More that while it isn't HSR it is still very fast.

On other forums, I've read that the rules don't require full segregation until over 125 mph. That's closer to 200 kph operating speed. Add in the few limited stops they have planned, and it's easy to see them hitting 150-160 kph average, even with slowdowns in urban areas.

Possible, but it will be a challenge.

VIA's frequency on the corridor is already decent. Something like 9 trains a day. Of course, getting to hourly and simply have a schedule that is 90% accurate would be a gamechanger in and of themselves.

That is only for Toronto-Ottawa. Toronto-Montreal and Ottawa-Montreal are at a lower frequency and sometimes problimaticly low. I wold consider 9 trains a day to be on the minimum edge for frequent and it could be much better. Reliability is another matter.

Yep. This is exactly why I take issue with posts like these whining about the plan not being fast enough. Ummm would you rather what we have now? I am starting to wonder if HSR advocates actually care about good train service or just enjoy being armchair critics who advocate.

With current ridership, HSR doesn't stand a chance of attracting funding, especially since the airlines would lobby against it. If it did happen, the price war that would ensue would kill ridership. HFR wouldn't be seen as big a threat to the airlines, so the might just leave it alone.

[roger1818]

Not directly related VIA's HSR proposal, but Florida's Brigtline could be considered HFR. Granted it is a totally different market so it isn't directly comparible, but it is still an interesting read. I hope to ride Brightline in the spring.

Brightline succeeds by being bold
October 29, 2018

I recently had the chance to ride Brightline for the first time.

Brightline has turned passenger rail in the United States upside down by doing one seemingly obvious thing: defining what it wanted to do—its ideal scenario—then finding a way to make that happen.

Too often, efforts to begin or expand passenger rail in the U.S. get off on the wrong foot by first outlining what isn’t possible. Once all the constraints and barriers are in place, you’re not left many options, and certainly not great ones.

Brightline, instead, started with its advantages, like an existing rail corridor, and real estate development possibilities. It then set out goals, like frequent service on modern trains, and did what was necessary to make it happen. In some cases, they weren’t sure how they were going to achieve their goals, but they proceeded with confidence nonetheless.

The end result is outstanding. The trains themselves are comfortable, quiet, and smooth. The hyper-modern stations and trains are part of the “wow” factor, luring people out of their cars. (The new coaches we’re getting in the Midwest will be the same basic design, so we’ve got good things to look forward to.)

Brightline began service with many trains every day, which is crucial. Often, new services plan to start with only one or two trips a day, hoping to scale up in the future. Instead, they see underwhelming ridership as a result of the limited schedule. Brightline understands that the convenience of a frequent schedule is a major part of the “will I take the train?” equation. Proving that point, I noticed that even mid-day, off-peak trains were busy.

From before I got on the train until after I arrived, it was obvious Brightline does everything in their power to make the experience pleasant. There are friendly staff everywhere, who are particularly helpful for guiding first-time train riders through the process. There’s also top-notch food and beverage service at the station and on the train. (Even this luxury travel writer was impressed.)

Brightline’s success is beginning to change attitudes towards passenger rail in South Florida. In recent years, a number of communities along Brightline’s planned northern extension to Orlando filed “not in my backyard” lawsuits. Now that people have experienced how nice it is to ride the train, one of those communities is changing its tune, and instead proposing possible station locations.

Brightline has already set its sights beyond Florida with its acquisition of Las Vegas service rights. To bring fast, frequent and reliable trains to the Midwest, we’ll need to borrow some of Brightline’s confidence and apply their bold methods here.


Richard Harnish
Executive Director
Midwest High Speed Rail Association

For original article with pictures, https://www.midwesthsr.org/brightlin...eds-being-bold

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Never said it was in the realm of HSR. On other forums, I've read that the rules don't require full segregation until over 125 mph. That's closer to 200 kph operating speed. Add in the few limited stops they have planned, and it's easy to see them hitting 150-160 kph average, even with slowdowns in urban areas.

The Devil is in the details of course, but it is hard to see an average speed 80% of the max speed anywhere near the estimates Via is putting out. Conflict with freight traffic is certainly a hinderance in current operations, but it certainly isn’t the only one.

[Innsertnamehere]

The reliability is key - but Toronto to Montreal needs to be competitive (sub 4hrs), even if Ottawa is closer to 3hrs.

Seriously though, reliability, especially during peak times, would win out so many drivers. One of my best friends is from Ottawa and travels back regularly for family and work.. he had a 10 hour drive last winter to get there from downtown Toronto. Left at 5pm on a Friday... got there at 3am. I've done Whitby to Saint John NB in a little over 11 hours before.. (albeit at 5am Christmas morning with 0 traffic), so the fact it can take 10 hours to get to Ottawa or even Montreal is crazy. A reliable 3hr trip would essentially kill driving for me on the 401.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Devil is in the details of course, but it is hard to see an average speed 80% of the max speed anywhere near the estimates Via is putting out. Conflict with freight traffic is certainly a hinderance in current operations, but it certainly isn’t the only one.

Before congestion on CN's mainline forced VIA to slow down, VIA Rail's Express Metropolis (using LRCs) would travel between Toronto & Montreal in 3:59. I believe that is about 540 km and it had a top speed of 160km/h, so that would have an average of 135 km/h or 84% of max speed.

I agree that VIA rail's target is optimistic, but it isn't impossible.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Before congestion on CN's mainline forced VIA to slow down, VIA Rail's Express Metropolis (using LRCs) would travel between Toronto & Montreal in 3:59. I believe that is about 540 km and it had a top speed of 160km/h, so that would have an average of 135 km/h or 84% of max speed.

I agree that VIA rail's target is optimistic, but it isn't impossible.

That service was non-stop from Dorval to Union, which isn’t how HFR is described as operating. It isn’t just freight that led to its cancellation, it was disruptive to the entire network to prioritize one express train and Via had to leave large gaps in services to other cities to make way for this one express service.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That service was non-stop from Dorval to Union, which isn’t how HFR is described as operating. It isn’t just freight that led to its cancellation, it was disruptive to the entire network to prioritize one express train and Via had to leave large gaps in services to other cities to make way for this one express service.

HFR as planned, really doesn't have that many stops. Especially between the GTA and Smiths Falls. That's a lot of ground to make up time from urban areas. Will be the same if they keep only one station between Tremblay and Dorval.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

HFR as planned, really doesn't have that many stops. Especially between the GTA and Smiths Falls. That's a lot of ground to make up time from urban areas. Will be the same if they keep only one station between Tremblay and Dorval.

Hard to know for sure because Via is so secretive about what they’re planning, but the only map I have seen has stops at Eglinton, Peterborough, Tweed, Sharbot Lake and Smith Falls. I assume Sharbot Lake and Tweed would be rare stops, but I think there would also be pressure for a stop at Fallowfield and in Durham region.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Hard to know for sure because Via is so secretive about what they’re planning, but the only map I have seen has stops at Eglinton, Peterborough, Tweed, Sharbot Lake and Smith Falls. I assume Sharbot Lake and Tweed would be rare stops, but I think there would also be pressure for a stop at Fallowfield and in Durham region.

Last I heard Perth also wants a stop, but they are close to Smiths Falls.

Optimally VIA would have both Regional rail and Intercity trains.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Last I heard Perth also wants a stop, but they are close to Smiths Falls.

Optimally VIA would have both Regional rail and Intercity trains.

I think the province of Ontario should do the regional portion, instead, just like Metrolinx Go Train and Northland Rail.

I’ve been thinking about stops (for the regional one) at Oshawa, , Bowmanville, Clarington, Orono, Peterborough, Norwood, Havelock, Marmora, Madoc, Kaladar, Perth, Carleton Place, Kanata, then finally Ottawa. If you think it’s too long, you can chop it up into segments.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I think the province of Ontario should do the regional portion, instead, just like Metrolinx Go Train and Northland Rail.

I’ve been thinking about stops (for the regional one) at Oshawa, , Bowmanville, Clarington, Orono, Peterborough, Norwood, Havelock, Marmora, Madoc, Kaladar, Perth, Carleton Place, Kanata, then finally Ottawa. If you think it’s too long, you can chop it up into segments.

You mean a bus service?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You mean a bus service?

No, I actually mean rail. Are you thinking that making room for HSR will make the regional route very unreliable??

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

No, I actually mean rail. Are you thinking that making room for HSR will make the regional route very unreliable??

No, I think the proposed route doesn’t go through most of the places you listed.

[Dengler Avenue]

Interesting. For the longest time, I thought Via will be utilizing the trackage along Highway 7.

What I really meant was this: If Via doesn’t get its funding for the HSR, the province should take over. Electrified, too.

Ps: I was also thinking that if the province does it (which is very unlikely), it should also include freight service with priority given to passenger train. This is to remove as many trucks from the 401 as possible. (I know this is essentially fantasy at this point, though. I was gonna talk about this in my thread about rail traffic.)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Interesting. For the longest time, I thought Via will be utilizing the trackage along Highway 7.

They are (well, maybe, concrete information is hard to come by) but the route only parallels highway 7 in certain places.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Interesting. For the longest time, I thought Via will be utilizing the trackage along Highway 7.

Here is a map of the route that VIA hopes to use. The HFR (VIA has no plans for HSR) stations are yellow circles. As you can see it will bypass many of the station you listed in post #32. Now I gather VIA does still plan to provide regional rail service along the existing route.

What I really meant was this: If Via doesn’t get its funding for the HSR, the province should take over. Electrified, too.

That will never happen. Ignoring the fact that the Southern Ontario HSR plan was an election ploy with no real motivation, Queens Park doesn't really care all that much about Ottawa and Montreal is in another province.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Never said it was in the realm of HSR. On other forums, I've read that the rules don't require full segregation until over 125 mph.

I have found a couple references to confirm this. According to this article by the FRA:

With respect to highway-rail grade crossings located on track that is subject to train operations at maximum authorized speeds of 110-125 mph, 49 CFR 213.247(b) states that trains shall not be operated at speeds of 110 mph or more through the crossing unless the crossing is equipped with a properly functioning FRA-approved warning/barrier system

Also, this document, also by the FRA, says that the only differences in requirements between Tier IB (80-110 mph) and IC (111-125 mph) operations are:

• Class 7 track
• Barriers above 110, see 213.247 (public crossings)
• Presence detection tied to PTC above 110 (public crossings)
• no private crossings or same requirements as public crossings