Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[realcity]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Also, everyone take a good look at this overhead shot. Do you see what surrounds the site? Mainly single family home residential. The Ivor Wynn mistake is being recreated, and you are all cheering it on.

So folks, what happens while this sits in OMB? Because you just know it's going to end up there. Then you'll have the remaining property owners holding out for a deal, and you'll have to deal with the single family owners on the site who don't want to sell. With a tight time constraint for the Pan Am Games, council will have no choice but go with 'Plan B' if this gets mired in an OMB appeal. Can anyone tell me where Plan B is located?

And that's why this whole thing sucks.

Bravo Mark... this is what I've been trying to say.... This site was chosen to go against the Airport deliberately to fail... and the default winner will go to the Airport.

Someone here gets it. This is a huge con job to finally have an excuse to break ground at the airport for more sprawl and to signal to the Province that the Greenbelt no longer can be applied to Mount Hope. And then it's party time, Meadowlands Part 3. And the only councilor that also 'gets it' is Mr. Bratina. The safe political choice was to select the West Harbour and then when it eventually goes to the airport, Eisenberger etc can say "aw shucks" "we tried". Why do you think Mitchell was absent? He totally wants it at the airport but politically it's a molotov cocktail to vote against the populist. Mitchell has survived as a politician for over 20 years by doing exactly these types of maneouvers. And everyone beats up Bratina because he doesn't play politics.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by realcity

You have? You've tailgated at a Bills game? Okay so why do you think Hamilton football fans will have picnics in the park before a game then? Hamilton and Buffalo have similar cultures.

"Pissing on your poodle" was a reflection of how testy you were getting. Seemed a little dramatic. I was just illustrating that the new stadium seemed like it would have comparable or superior tailgating options as compared to those currently enjoyed by fans at Ivor Wynne. Admittedly, the "picnic" word was inflammatory. I meant it in the sense of nearly indestructable wood tables that are found around BBQs, not wicker hampers with nesting dishes, gingham blankets and croquet matches, pink lemonade and dainty sandwiches with the crusts cut off. As I pointed out, park spaces like Lakefront Park are blank slates that can host festivals like Ribfest and Wingfest, and under the right circumstances several thousand inebriated sports fans, if not all of the vehicles they'll be in no condition to operate.

I don't think that this is the ideal site for the stadium. I don't think the city has an ideal site. Maybe it should've been out in Aldershot where Bob wanted it. Who knows. Hopefully the team survives the transplant. (Also the league, which Hamilton millionaires may own wholesale by 2015 if things keep up at this rate.)

[thistleclub]

Via the Strathcona mailing list, a message from Councillor McHattie:

Many of you have expressed interest in the Pan Am Games stadium location in the West Harbour (bounded by Barton, Queen, Bay, and Stuart streets) given its proximity to the Strathcona North neighbourhood just west of Queen Street.

Yesterday, City Council deliberated on the stadium location and received information on the costs and transportation plan for the area. The Transportation Plan was carefully prepared with a recognition that since the West Harbour site was within a neighbourhood, there must be a limit on the number of cars that could infiltrate the area. To this end, there were recommendations on the use of shuttle buses from downtown parking lots, improvements to walkability and cycling infrastructure to encourage pedestrians and folks to use their bikes, a discussion about the role of GO Transit and VIA Rail (with the new service planned shortly with a train station adjacent to LIUNA), no allowance of on-street parking during events (therefore spaces reserved for homeowners), and perhaps most importantly, a limit of 600 parking spaces in an off-street lot by the stadium.

Believing that the Pan Am Games were important to the City, and knowing that we needed to replace the aging Ivor Wynne Stadium, I went into yesterday's meeting prepared to support the West Harbour stadium location and comforted that a well-thought out transportation plan would protect our neighbourhood.

However, as Council discussed the plan, it became clear that many wanted to expand the car parking to a higher number than the 600 spots. As you know the neighbourhood streets in Strathcona North are narrow and not designed for a lot of vehicle traffic. I believed that the only way a stadium would work was to keep most cars out, and bring people in for events using other modes of travel (shuttles, walking, transit, cycling etc.). Therefore I reversed my earlier thinking and voted against the West Harbour stadium location.

As you may know, City Council voted in the majority to support the West Harbour stadium location. My job now is to ensure that the original transportation plan is followed and that, among other things, there is not an escalation of cars allowed to park in the area.

I am writing you today because I think it is important for you to know why I voted the way I did. I will be holding a community meeting shortly so all of you have the opportunity to see the West Harbour stadium plans as I have, and so we can work together to ensure that there are no negative impacts on our neighbourhood.

Brian

[SteelTown]

Now see that's a councillor that takes the proactive solutions instead of this my way or the highway attitude that some councillors take.

[realcity]

3% chance it gets built at West Harbour
97% chance it gets built at the Airport

[adam]

..... but it has been approved

[SteelTown]

Cats' partners not sold on stadium site

February 24, 2010
John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/727236

The Tiger-Cats are getting a lukewarm response to the west harbour site for the Pan Am Games stadium from the team's partners, says president Scott Mitchell.

That could mean less investment in the location being touted by the city as an important link between the waterfront and downtown.

"It presents some legitimate issues and challenges for the private sector," Mitchell said.

The Ticats have about 40 corporate sponsors ranging from major businesses to local restaurants.

Mitchell said the team is committed to working with the city to make the site near Bay and Barton viable.

"That site isn't a great solution due to visibility and accessibility issues, but we're working with the city to put our best foot forward," he said.

His comments come as Councillor Bernie Morelli said the city can't lose sight of a Plan B site, specifically at the east harbour.

It has the visibility and accessibility west harbour doesn't, Morelli noted, but added he, too, will try to be part of a solution at the west harbour.

The city's committee of the whole voted 10-5 for the west harbour location last week but also held out the possibility of other options. The vote is expected to be endorsed by city council tonight.

Mitchell said it's important to understand that the funding to take a $102-million, 15,000-seat Games stadium to a $150-million 25,000-seat CFL facility is only one part of the equation.

"You have to consider the long-term operational costs for both the city and the Tiger-Cats."

Mitchell said the location of a stadium can mean a range in private-sector support from "millions to tens of millions."

To get the Cadillac of stadiums, up to $50 million of that support is required.

Otherwise, the city has to try to build a signature facility for less.

Both Mitchell and the city's Pan Am pointman David Adames said a timeline on creating a stadium vision will define how the process moves forward.

Both parties are eager to know when Hamilton has to deliver a concrete plan to the Pan Am host company.

Mitchell said taxpayers and football fans need to know conceiving a stadium plan that works will be a lengthy process.

The general 2015 Games timeline calls for site consideration this year, planning, design and awarding of contracts in 2011 with construction in 2012 and 2013 and completion by July 2014, a year out from the 42-nation showcase.

Hamilton is to get the stadium for track and field, an $11.4-million velodrome and $35-million pool at McMaster as part of the Games plan. Burlington is in line for a $23-million soccer facility.

[coalminecanary]

these guys can all keep fighting it, and we'll end up with our very own stadium....in oakville

JUST GET ON WITH IT

[SteelTown]

Wonder if they contacted people like Ron Joyce, Michael DeGroote, David Braley, the Juravinskis and Teresa Cascioli for donations.

I'm sure Labatt is on board.

[thistleclub]

Councillor Bernie Morelli said the city can't lose sight of a Plan B site, specifically at the east harbour.

It has the visibility and accessibility west harbour doesn't, Morelli noted, but added he, too, will try to be part of a solution at the west harbour.

True, the lot between Dofasco and the Woodward Avenue Wastewater Treatment Plant does offer highway visibility.

[realcity]

So now velodrome users and Ti-Cats don't like the West Harbour... I know it's been approved, politically. There is very slim chance it will be built there

[markbarbera]

This city has an incredible knack for setting itself up for failure.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

these guys can all keep fighting it, and we'll end up with our very own stadium....in oakville

JUST GET ON WITH IT

This isn't someone fighting it, this is the Ticats' partners saying they don't like it. Big difference. Huge difference.

This is what happens when you limit your choices to 'bad' or 'worse'.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

This isn't someone fighting it, this is the Ticats' partners saying they don't like it. Big difference. Huge difference.

This is what happens when you limit your choices to 'bad' or 'worse'.

$25m gives you a voice but still makes you a minority partner. The private sector shortfall is about twice that. And didn't Mitchell want a $200m stadium at one point?

BTW, there's plenty of bumbling to go around.

NEC nixes Burlington's Pan Am soccer site

Good thing it's a Toronto bid!

[thistleclub]

Bless this mess.

Hamilton council accused of secret Pan Am stadium talks

John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
(Feb 25, 2010)

The Ontario ombudsman's office is looking into a complaint about a city council meeting on the Pan Am stadium that was closed to the public.

The ombudsman will assess the complaint, then determine if a full investigation is warranted, a spokesperson for the office said.

The ombudsman's office did not identify who lodged the complaint.

The Feb. 18 in-camera meeting followed an open council meeting that approved a west harbour site for the proposed Pan Am stadium.

Foes of that site say the secret session dealing with land acquisition at the brownfield site wrongly left the public in the dark.

Councillor Brad Clark was disturbed that a "heavy-handed request" to eliminate hearings in expropriation of properties at the proposed site was not discussed in public. It meant the city could ask the province to bypass the normal appeal process, he explained.

Councillor Bob Bratina, whose ward contains the site near Bay and Barton streets, said information revealed in the closed session dealt with the cost of site preparation and land assembly, elements the public should know about.

"The key piece of information the public should know from the in-camera session is the site condition is not known."

Mayor Fred Eisenberger said council voted to go into the closed session based on legal advice, as sensitive matters of land acquisition for the stadium site were contained in a report. He said the complaints look political, with west harbour opponents using the closed-session issue to continue their fight against the location.

Eisenberger said much of the content discussed was later brought into an open council session, save for information about land values.

The item dealing with expropriation hearings was a tactic he hopes the city can avoid.

"We want it to be a case of willing buyer and willing seller."

City council ratified the west harbour site last night, 9-6. In favour were Eisenberger, Bernie Morelli, Chad Collins, Tom Jackson, Scott Duvall, Terry Whitehead, Maria Pearson, Russ Powers and Robert Pasuta. Lloyd Ferguson, also in favour, was absent. Against were Brian McHattie, Bratina, Sam Merulla, Clark, David Mitchell and Margaret McCarthy.

Linda Williamson of the ombudsman's office said some complaints are resolved without an investigation. She added complaints about closed municipal meetings have sometimes ended in an investigation involving interviews with all the people in the meeting room.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Mitchell said the team is committed to working with the city to make the site near Bay and Barton viable.

"That site isn't a great solution due to visibility and accessibility issues, but we're working with the city to put our best foot forward," he said.

As far as naming rights go, highway access/visibility are obviously key considerations, since you're basically talking about the architectural equivalent of a billboard. And while it's maybe true that Highway 6 offers better optics than Barton or Burlington, the proposed but never ratified east harbour site would be miles ahead in that department (even if the industrial context would detract from the optics).

BTW, nobody wanted to consider Bob's trial balloon of Aldershot, but it's five minutes closer to Ivor Wynne than the Airport location, has a multimodal transit hub next door and would be highly visible to commuters every day of the year. Its only flaw is that it's not Hamilton. (It is in a "Hamilton sandwich," though -- between Waterdown and the old city.)

[SteelTown]

Gee I wonder who in council gave the ombudsman a call.

If the stadium is outside of Hamilton than Hamilton won't fund the stadium.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Gee I wonder who in council gave the ombudsman a call.

Can't be Brad Clark. He would've leaked it to the media.

Originally Posted by SteelTown

If the stadium is outside of Hamilton than Hamilton won't fund the stadium.

Not suggesting Hamilton would pay for an Aldershot build, just that it might be a favourable site for a number of reasons. Might. Like I said, there are no ideal sites. And maybe the GHA will screw up all of the Pan Am projects.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

As far as naming rights go, highway access/visibility are obviously key considerations, since you're basically talking about the architectural equivalent of a billboard. And while it's maybe true that Highway 6 offers better optics than Barton or Burlington, the proposed but never ratified east harbour site would be miles ahead in that department (even if the industrial context would detract from the optics).

BTW, nobody wanted to consider Bob's trial balloon of Aldershot, but it's five minutes closer to Ivor Wynne than the Airport location, has a multimodal transit hub next door and would be highly visible to commuters every day of the year. Its only flaw is that it's not Hamilton. (It is in a "Hamilton sandwich," though -- between Waterdown and the old city.)

I don't think Ti-cats have any more interest in the airport location as they do in the west harbour location, probably less of an interest.

Quite some time ago I suggested that Kay Drage Park be considered as a site for the stadium. IMO this is the most ideal site to meet the needs of all parties involved. It is already city-owned land and was recently remediated, so no acquisition prep costs to speak of. Geographically it is not in close proximity to any existing residential homes, so no worries about impact on residential communities. It lies right next to Highway 403, making for ideal visibility and accessibility. It also lies within metres of the proposed LRT, and GO transit already runs trains along the CP track running alongside the site, making it perfectly positioned for multi-modal transit service. Imagine a GO train that actually pulls in to a station built under the east side of the stadium!

I guess that site made too much sense to be given proper consideration...

[thistleclub]

Like Kay Drage and thought about it. Could be a snug fit, but it might work. Assuming a stadium the size of Ivor Wynne, it'd have to be tucked into the south end of the park next to the cathedral.