PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[BrianTH]

Unfortunately I don't think public transit into Oakland is remotely adequate as it stands. Bus service into Oakland from much of the East End actually isn't very good (Shadyside and Squirrel Hill act as slow and crowded zones for Oakland-bound riders from farther out in the East End), and it is pretty terrible from everywhere else (and I think Oakland is too important regionally to only be linked to the East End).

We really should be looking to do better, but the question is how to do better for Oakland in light of the topographic barriers and congested surface routes surrounding it. Framed that way, you either need tunnels (very expensive), or a viable less-expensive alternative to tunnels (which led me to aerial gondolas).

[Private Dick]

^ They would definitely be cool... but are gondolas adequate for the large transit ridership in Pittsburgh's East End?

Also, what course would a gondola route take between downtown and the East End? I don't really see easy options for the course or where the stations could be conveniently located.

Now, a gondola from downtown to Mt. Washington... that's a project that would be game-changing for Pittsburgh.

[Grego43]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

^
Now, a gondola from downtown to Mt. Washington... that's a project that would be game-changing for Pittsburgh.

That actually had been proposed 15, maybe 20 years ago...but alas, the proposal died on the vine.

I've read in this thread ideas about gondolas, heavy rail subway to the east end, maglev, blah, blah, blah. Why introduce yet another mode of transport that doesn't have compatability with what is already in place? When you take away the single-seat option from most commuters, they end up jumping in their car instead. Pittsburgh has the basics of what could and should be a comprehensive LRT & BRT system. I say plan, then build on that...look at what is happening in Dallas, St. Louis, Portland, Salt Lake, Sacramento, San Diego, and Denver, Charlotte. The all have a comprehensive PLAN for the future and are acting on it...the Port Authority...nothing.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

^ They would definitely be cool... but are gondolas adequate for the large transit ridership in Pittsburgh's East End?

I wouldn't suggest them for the routes from Oakland to Shadyside and Squirrel Hill and farther east from there--for those I would propose going with the Rapid Bus plan that came out of the TDP.

Also, what course would a gondola route take between downtown and the East End? I don't really see easy options for the course or where the stations could be conveniently located.

From Downtown to Oakland, you could go up and over the Hill:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...f7a17fe19&z=13

In that proposal I also had a bypass of Downtown from South Hills Junction to Oakland via the South Side.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Grego43

Why introduce yet another mode of transport that doesn't have compatability with what is already in place?

Many cities integrate four or more different technologies into their transit systems. The main reason to do that is different technologies have different strengths and weaknesses and so different technologies are optimal for different needs. So if you artificially restrict the technologies you use, you may leave some important needs unmet, such as getting rapid transit directly into Oakland.

When you take away the single-seat option from most commuters, they end up jumping in their car instead.

That's all the more reason to use whatever set of technologies can give you the most direct routes between important nodes.

[Jonboy1983]

I just don't think gondolas would adequately address the transit needs between Oakland and Downtown. BRT down 5th Avenue, IMO, isn't going to address that either. Not to mention, I thought designated bus lanes were already in place along 5th Avenue and Forbes Avenue.

If something is to go in this corridor that will adequately serve this part of town (fast, frequent, AND reliable), it needs to be grade-separated. I think metro/subway or LRT is the best option, IMO. Monorail would also work here, and it's relatively inexpensive. Tom Murphy talked of this idea, didn't he?

[Minivan Werner]

Gondolas seem like a better option for connecting two neighborhoods over shorter distances.. like The Strip with the Hill, rather than over longer distances.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

I just don't think gondolas would adequately address the transit needs between Oakland and Downtown. BRT down 5th Avenue, IMO, isn't going to address that either.

A heavy rail subway would be ideal from a capacity standpoint, but it has been talked about for a century with no progress. A multiprong approach (gondolas from Downtown and bypassing Downtown and BRT from Downtown) may end up more politically feasible, and would also provide a wider net of coverage.

Note the gondola technology I had in mind when designing my map has a capacity of about 4000 people per hour per direction. Between the two lines (direct from Downtown and the bypass from South Hills), that is a diversion of up to 8000 people per hour per direction, which is about the same total capacity as a T line would have. Of course I'm not sure the South Hills line would divert that many people, but it might (assuming the hypothetical alternative would include T service originating in the South Hills and going to Oakland via Downtown).

Not to mention, I thought designated bus lanes were already in place along 5th Avenue and Forbes Avenue.

The Rapid Bus plan could also involve some signal priority, schedule streamlining, and maybe off-bus fare collection.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Minivan Werner

Gondolas seem like a better option for connecting two neighborhoods over shorter distances.. like The Strip with the Hill, rather than over longer distances.

Cities in South America, including Caracas, Medellin, and Rio, are using detachable gondola systems to do multi-mile routes with several intermediary stations and direction changes (the Rio line is 2.1 miles in total, and Caracas is building a 3-mile line). The way this technology works, as long as you have a straight path between each intermediary station, you can string an arbitrary number of them together to form longer routes, with a turn at each intermediary station as necessary--that was the rule I followed in my map (each of the lines between stations is straight, and also is planned to miss any tall building and have places to put stations).

The particular technology I had in mind when designing my map has a speed of about 17 mph. Adding a bit of time for stations (although not much is needed), the end points (North Side, Millvale, and South Hills Junction) should all be within about 20 minutes or less of Oakland. Note these systems also have very short wait times (less than 1 minute), so total trip time after arriving at the departure station is even more competitive than the time in transit would suggest. And, of course, the inherent pleasures of the trip also compensate a bit.

With that speed, you are a bit limited in how far out you could eventually go from your main destinations--this is very much a local transit technology, and couldn't compete with, say, commuter rail or commuter buses running on highways. But once you think about possible originations just a few miles in route from Downtown and Oakland, while getting to ignore things like hills and rivers and gorges being in the way, a lot of possibilities come to mind.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by George Woods

Yeah, it's a shame our topography (which is beautiful) makes things so hard. I've also thought it would be cool for the T to branch off from the First Avenue station and head down Second Avenue because it would be relatively easy. But, again, it would serve almost nobody, because all the easy routes are in ditches too narrow for development. Pittsburgh was perfectly suited for railroads, huh? Honestly, I think we should just accept that Pittsburgh has two employment centers. Those who want nice neighborhoods to live in, which are convenient to Oakland, have the East End; and those who need to be conveniently close to Downtown have great options, too: Strip, Northside, Southside, Hill, Downtown, Mt. Washington, along the T, etc. The Hill doesn't need the T because it's already one of the few neighborhoods that are close enough to both job centers to need no more transportation options. I just don't think the farthest-away and highest-up East End neighborhoods will be as convenient for Downtown workers anytime soon.

The saddest thing is half a century ago cities like ours HAD an effective rail system serving the city and some suburbs: The street car/ trolley system.

But somewhere along the way, that system was phased out for some reason. Hmmmmm......

[daviderik]

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...pacity-631089/

Steelers move to add 3,000 seats to Heinz Field



The Steelers this morning took the first step toward adding 3,000 seats at Heinz Field.

At the team's request, the city-Allegheny County Sports & Exhibition Authority board passed a resolution to further explore and plan the possible additions.

SEA executive director Mary Conturo said the authorization was needed so the Steelers could take their proposal to add seats to the NFL for approval next month.

"The first thing to be done is to be sure the NFL is in agreement," she said.

Ms. Conturo said she had no timetable for construction and did not know how much the extra seats would cost. The Steelers could not immediately be reached for comment.

The seats would be added in the south end zone beneath the scoreboard. The team previously had said a mix of general, reserved and club seating was being considered.

Possible funding sources include a surcharge on tickets and personal seat licenses, a fee charged for the right to buy a seat.

Also today, the SEA board approved a development and maintenance agreement for the World War II Memorial on the North Shore. Mark Schneider, a representative for the group building the memorial, said it is close to raising the $4.5 million needed for the tribute. Construction is expected to start in late spring or early summer.

The board also approved $1.1 million in spending to build out space for SEA offices at the David L. Lawrence Convention Center. Ms. Conturo said a study showed the new construction was more cost effective in the long run than continuing to lease space at the Regional Enterprise Tower Downtown.

The steelers have been talking about this for sometime now. Glad to see the WWII memorial is again on track. Funding has caused many delays.

[George Woods]

^Have you ever read about the conspiracy that took place regarding the elimination of street-car lines in favor of buses? It's pretty pathetic—especially the fine the conspirators were ordered to pay later.

The more yinz talk about the gondola idea, the more I think it would be really awesome in Pittsburgh, particularly in and around Town and the rivers. What a claim to fame it would be. We already have inclines (sadly so few compared with what we had) because our unusual topography demanded them. Why not gondolas? Brian's right—hills and gorges would no longer matter. And riding them around the Golden Triangle, and high above river valleys, would be phenomenal.

[KINGPIN]

I am a trolley/ train enthusiast and I am by No Means a conspiracy theorist but I do believe such "theories" are based on elements of truth. The problem is that conspiracy theorist only take one element and run with it, while dismissing other relevant elements and issues. In the case of trolleys, I went to the trolley museum out in Wash. county last summer (nice little museum) and was introduced to the "trolley conspiracy" by one of the tour guides. I looked into it and came to my personal conclusion that GM and big oil did see an opportunity to make $ my manufacturing buses for transit which helped hasten the death of trolleys in many cities. However, trolleys were already on the decline because of:
1. growth of suburbs & interstates-Trolleys were useful in central cities but because of population shifts, building lines out to the new suburbs wasn't as attractive as building interstates for the new middle class.
2. car culture- people love cars and like the privacy they afford instead of relying on public transit. GM and the automakers were giving the people what they wanted.
3. Trends- Many cities were abandoning trolleys in favor of buses simply because trolleys were "old fashioned", noisy, "inefficient", obstructive etc. I vaguely remembering the general feeling in Pittsburgh, one of the last trolley holdouts, that the city had to get with the times and rid itself of trolleys and tracks which were causing damages to personal vehicles.

I think of other conspiracies and the same thing comes up, such as Pitt destroyed Forbes Field. Yes Pitt wanted to expand but trends in cities was to demolish old stadiums and replace them with cookie cutters. Pitt took advantage and bought the land to expand. Interesting that the trend in baseball is now retro since Camden Yards.
Same with the Wal-Mart conspiracies, yes Wal-mart wants to completely rule retail (which they do), but i don't think it was not an orchestrated plan to destroy mom & pop's. I think Wal-Mart considers them "collateral damage"- which is a shame.Online commerce, shopping preferences and the decline of indoor malls deadmalls.com in favor of box stores have all helped give Wal-Mart the power like He-Man.

BTW getting back to buildings and Pitt, the new dorms on 5th are rising nicely, i believe about 10-12 stories which helps add to the canyon affect in Oakland!

[ks2006]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

I think from this angle, it looks more complete:



Although yeah, it could def be viewed as having a somewhat "unfinished around the edges look to it" I think with all the surrounding touches it is quite nice though. The inside is def boss. Love those angled round concrete columns.

Does the new Gateway station have any prominent signs that it is a Subway Station?? I can't see even one from the pictures posted -- very odd considering this is an area where a lot of tourists / out of towners would be passing through. Of course the locals know, but someone from out of town or the 'burbs may have no idea what it is when just walking by on the other side of the street.

[TBone7281]

Lot 24

04/05/12


04/12/12



Civic Arena Demo (04/12/12)
Not much left to see from 7th or getting on to Crosstown anymore. It's still strange to me to be able to see the sky so much from this vantage point. Hopefully that will be filled in within the next couple years.

[gallacus]

Originally Posted by TBone7281

Lot 24

Civic Arena Demo (04/12/12)
Not much left to see from 7th or getting on to Crosstown anymore. It's still strange to me to be able to see the sky so much from this vantage point. Hopefully that will be filled in within the next couple years.

Nice shot, and nice WRX

[Austinlee]

I hope we have suspended gondolas on a monorail! It looks so cool in Memphis:

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by KINGPIN

I think of other conspiracies and the same thing comes up, such as Pitt destroyed Forbes Field. Yes Pitt wanted to expand but trends in cities was to demolish old stadiums and replace them with cookie cutters. Pitt took advantage and bought the land to expand. Interesting that the trend in baseball is now retro since Camden Yards.

Yeah, I usually check out the anniversary celebration of Maz's homer that they hold each year and I always hear people talking about how big old evil Pitt destroyed Forbes Field.

When the facts were that Forbes Field was a crumbling, rusting hulk by the mid-1950s and the Pirates had no intention of renovating it and staying there. That's why they sold it to Pitt in the late 50s. The sad thing is not that Forbes Field was finally demolished in the early 70s, but that the Pirates/city did very little to maintain it properly over the years... only making the decision and generating support for seeking a more "modern" and "convenient" stadium location (meaning "more parking") that much easier. Thus, we got Three Rivers and the sea of parking lots that characterized the "North Shore" for 30+ years.

[MattofSloppyVariety]

I drove past the PNC site last night and was quite happy that those building are coming down.

I also drove past the site in East Liberty, have to say it's nice to see "happy birthday Julia" gone from those windows finally.

[Wiz Khalifa]

Originally Posted by KINGPIN

I am a trolley/ train enthusiast and I am by No Means a conspiracy theorist but I do believe such "theories" are based on elements of truth. The problem is that conspiracy theorist only take one element and run with it, while dismissing other relevant elements and issues. In the case of trolleys, I went to the trolley museum out in Wash. county last summer (nice little museum) and was introduced to the "trolley conspiracy" by one of the tour guides. I looked into it and came to my personal conclusion that GM and big oil did see an opportunity to make $ my manufacturing buses for transit which helped hasten the death of trolleys in many cities. However, trolleys were already on the decline because of:
1. growth of suburbs & interstates-Trolleys were useful in central cities but because of population shifts, building lines out to the new suburbs wasn't as attractive as building interstates for the new middle class.
2. car culture- people love cars and like the privacy they afford instead of relying on public transit. GM and the automakers were giving the people what they wanted.
3. Trends- Many cities were abandoning trolleys in favor of buses simply because trolleys were "old fashioned", noisy, "inefficient", obstructive etc. I vaguely remembering the general feeling in Pittsburgh, one of the last trolley holdouts, that the city had to get with the times and rid itself of trolleys and tracks which were causing damages to personal vehicles.

I think of other conspiracies and the same thing comes up, such as Pitt destroyed Forbes Field. Yes Pitt wanted to expand but trends in cities was to demolish old stadiums and replace them with cookie cutters. Pitt took advantage and bought the land to expand. Interesting that the trend in baseball is now retro since Camden Yards.
Same with the Wal-Mart conspiracies, yes Wal-mart wants to completely rule retail (which they do), but i don't think it was not an orchestrated plan to destroy mom & pop's. I think Wal-Mart considers them "collateral damage"- which is a shame.Online commerce, shopping preferences and the decline of indoor malls deadmalls.com in favor of box stores have all helped give Wal-Mart the power like He-Man.

BTW getting back to buildings and Pitt, the new dorms on 5th are rising nicely, i believe about 10-12 stories which helps add to the canyon affect in Oakland!

All conspiracy theories are based on some elements of truth. I don't really even consider something like this a conspiracy, though. It's just a very good business move on the part of the auto and oil companies... while enlisting the help of their compliant representatives in congress of whom they funded the majority of their election campaigns. That's all.

It's not surprising anymore because that's just how our country works now. It's not even too controversial to avoid mentioning this outright corruption (lobbying) in front of our faces via mainstream media outlets 24/7! And people don't even seem to care.

So for that reason alone I find this to be a very believable scenario explaining the demise of rail transit in Pittsburgh.