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  #1021  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
^^ I draw a distinction between Europe and North America in this matter. White people have no real "claim" to North America, IMO; they're an intruder people who violently invaded the continent and nearly destroyed its original culture. North American Whites can't really demand that newcomers assimilate into "White" values and traditions when the Whites didn't do a damn thing to try to integrate into the nations that were already here when they arrived in the first place.

But in Europe, where whites are the indigenous people, the original peoples of their countries with millennia of deeply rooted history, it's perfectly acceptable for ethnic Europeans to oppose multiculturalism/immigration to preserve their ethnic European majorities and cultures.
This still does not provide any justification for making the Lower Mainland of BC or part of it a mainly Chinese area or southern Ontario like South Asia in the future.
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  #1022  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 11:38 AM
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I actually tend to be somewhat more favourable to multiculturalism than against, but people should still see it for what it is: an elite-driven (especially corporate) fetish that primarily exists for mercantile reasons, as opposed to the ultimate virtuous end point in the evolution of the human species.

We don't all need to live in rainbow societies in order to not want to kill each other. And rainbow societies won't necessarily make us kill each other less. If we are talking about battling humanity's greatest scourge.
I could see that if you were referring to immigration, but I don't understand how it would apply to multiculturalism.
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  #1023  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 1:18 PM
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I could see that if you were referring to immigration, but I don't understand how it would apply to multiculturalism.
Good question but in the modern era the two have become inextricably linked.

I wonder if it isn't because our contemporary world requires multiculturalism to keep the essential immigration train on the rails. (Moreso than in previous eras that saw for example the mass settlement of the Canadian Prairies by primarily non-WASP immigrants, for example.)

That might be why multiculturalism as a dogma has crept up in surprising places like Western Europe. (Even though Angela Merkel has opined that it might be a "failure".)

I mean, I love Istanbul and all. It's one of the most fascinating places. But does Germany really need to import Turkish (or any other) foreign ways in order to be culturally rich and interesting?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut5S6C3GQi0

I do realize that foreign influences have been taking root in established societies since way before anyone had ever heard of the term "multiculturalism". (Germans for example have been eating currywurst with curry ketchup for quite some time, I gather... )

I just don't understand the basis for the sense of urgency to move all of this along at breakneck speed now, and the hostility that meets any talk of easing up on the accelerator a bit.
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  #1024  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 1:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Good question but in the modern era the two have become inextricably linked.

I wonder if it isn't because our contemporary world requires multiculturalism to keep the essential immigration train on the rails. (Moreso than in previous eras that saw for example the mass settlement of the Canadian Prairies by primarily non-WASP immigrants, for example.)

That might be why multiculturalism as a dogma has crept up in surprising places like Western Europe. (Even though Angela Merkel has opined that it might be a "failure".)

I mean, I love Istanbul and all. It's one of the most fascinating places. But does Germany really need to import Turkish (or any other) foreign in order to be culturally rich and interesting?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut5S6C3GQi0

I mean, I realize that foreign influences have been taking root in established societies since way before anyone had ever heard of the term "multiculturalism". (Germans for example have been eating currywurst with curry ketchup for quite some time, I gather... )

I just don't understand the basis for the sense of urgency to move all of this along at breakneck speed now, and the hostility that meets any talk of easing up on the accelerator a bit.
The answer, imho, would be "obviously no", but the Turkish immigration to Germany was a purely economic migration - I don't understand why one would even refer to German culture in that context, although I assume Turks living in Germany do have an effect on German culture. It's not something I pay much attention to, but I've never seen anything to suggest that anybody in Europe really "gets" multiculturalism as a mechanism for integration.

I'm also not clear on what/where you are referring to as "breakneck speed". In Canada's case, we've been multicultural by government policy for almost half a century and by law for thirty years (and, I would suggest, we were de facto "multiculturalish" for decades before that).
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  #1025  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
The answer, imho, would be "obviously no", but the Turkish immigration to Germany was a purely economic migration - I don't understand why one would even refer to German culture in that context, although I assume Turks living in Germany do have an effect on German culture. It's not something I pay much attention to, but I've never seen anything to suggest that anybody in Europe really "gets" multiculturalism as a mechanism for integration.

I'm also not clear on what/where you are referring to as "breakneck speed". In Canada's case, we've been multicultural by government policy for almost half a century and by law for thirty years (and, I would suggest, we were de facto "multiculturalish" for decades before that).
Maybe "breakneck speed" was not the right choice of words, but certainly there is a "(most) anything goes" mindset that's quite prevalent, as evidenced by how many people think the Mandarin-only condo board meetings are fine. In spite of all sorts of practical reasons (without even talking about the societal ones) that have been made that demonstrate that it makes no sense.
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  #1026  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 2:22 PM
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You guys will forgive me if I don't necessarily see multiculturalism as the natural inexorable desirable end-point of human civilization. Like just before first contact and the International Federation of Planets was created in Star Trek...

It could very well be that people in the centuries to come will view our era like we look back upon the Egyptomania phase in Europe in the 1700s and 1800s, spurred on by Volney and Talleyrand. (It was quite intense and there are still many visible traces of this in Paris, for example.)

At one point the people of countries X, Y and Z fetishized the idea of "multicultural rainbow nations". Then the circumstances changed and they hit the "pause" button on all of that. The main lasting effect of this period was that they ended up mostly being kind of a very light shade of brown instead of predominantly white (actually, it was closer to pink, but let's not quibble)...
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  #1027  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2017, 10:15 PM
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I guess Quebec will be the first to meet your 700 year benchmark, haha.
I did see someone123's initial version of that post where he stated his personal arbitrary threshold for a claim to occupancy was 700 years (I believe that's what you're referring to... in any case, the three of us at least are definitely on the same page here.)

The Anglo-Saxons made a very grave breach of etiquette when they resisted in 1066 then - Britain hadn't been theirs long enough for a proper claim at the time, so the correct thing to do was to capitulate immediately.

And post-WWII, there were territories that had been German for 700+ years (Slavic before that) that were given to Poland.

Plenty of Europeans aren't playing by the rules at all... Very sad! They're all supposed to be nice, and their borders, static!
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  #1028  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2017, 3:25 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I did see someone123's initial version of that post where he stated his personal arbitrary threshold for a claim to occupancy was 700 years (I believe that's what you're referring to... in any case, the three of us at least are definitely on the same page here.)

The Anglo-Saxons made a very grave breach of etiquette when they resisted in 1066 then - Britain hadn't been theirs long enough for a proper claim at the time, so the correct thing to do was to capitulate immediately.

And post-WWII, there were territories that had been German for 700+ years (Slavic before that) that were given to Poland.

Plenty of Europeans aren't playing by the rules at all... Very sad! They're all supposed to be nice, and their borders, static!
The Tin Drum by Gunther Grass was always fascinating to me for this reason.
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  #1029  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2017, 3:37 AM
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In English law there is the concept of "time immemorial", which is defined as all times before Richard I took the throne in 1189. So that's now 829 years ago ... someone123 isn't that far off.
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  #1030  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 6:23 AM
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For the record, since French was brought up, I agree that it's such a stupid argument. If you don't like having Mandarin dominate portions of local language or geography or whatever, you wouldn't like French anymore. It's not about "officialness," it's about understanding what's around you and having respect for local customs.

I do have internal battles about this sometimes in that ethnic enclaves (like Chinatowns or Little Italys or whatever) have existed for a long time and not really hurt anyone. If you don't understand the signs there, you just don't go there, and everyone got along fine keeping to themselves. At the same time, that seems so stupid to me. If we're gonna do multiculturalism, we might as well do it right. We can't live in harmony in Richmond, or Toronto, or LA or Paris or wherever if the new cultures coming in don't accept a certain segment of the culture that was already established there.

Why the West has become treating itself as a cultural blank slate recently is strange to me. Though judging by recent events, this may not last much longer.
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  #1031  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 9:02 AM
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Who rags on Japan because it's not multicultural?
Although I'm against these recent trends in Chinese immigrants isolating themselves from the rest of Canada, countries like Japan, Korea, China and their multiculturalism policy is a completely separate issue from that of Canada and the US.

Those countries have recorded history dating back to over 5000 years. They have largely maintained that history for that time as well. It only makes sense that the psychology of multiculturalism having grown from that type of background should be vastly different from ours by which we identify through the invasion of the indigenous people, European immigration, and the inhumane exploitation of the early Chinese immigrants.

Due to the contextual differences, comparing multiculturalism policies in Canada to countries like Japan doesn't make any logical sense. I suggest you not generalize your experience to a country of a (vastly) different culture.
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  #1032  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 2:09 PM
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Although I'm against these recent trends in Chinese immigrants isolating themselves from the rest of Canada, countries like Japan, Korea, China and their multiculturalism policy is a completely separate issue from that of Canada and the US.

Those countries have recorded history dating back to over 5000 years. They have largely maintained that history for that time as well. It only makes sense that the psychology of multiculturalism having grown from that type of background should be vastly different from ours by which we identify through the invasion of the indigenous people, European immigration, and the inhumane exploitation of the early Chinese immigrants.

Due to the contextual differences, comparing multiculturalism policies in Canada to countries like Japan doesn't make any logical sense. I suggest you not generalize your experience to a country of a (vastly) different culture.
I wasn't really referring to the genesis of these societies. These places are non-multicultural due to historical circumstance, mindset or other factors. Not necessarily because they are really old. Countries like Malaysia and India in Asia have very old cultures as well but are multicultural.

What I am talking about is assessing the value, legitimacy or interest of a society mostly or solely through the prism of multiculturalism. Japan proves that Britain would not necessarily be "diminished" if it were 99.9% WASP like Japan is 99.99% Japanese.

Regarding the treatment of "other" peoples in the edification of now-established nations, well... everyone pretty much displaced someone else at one point in time. Even the Japanese.
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  #1033  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 2:26 PM
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For the record, since French was brought up, I agree that it's such a stupid argument. If you don't like having Mandarin dominate portions of local language or geography or whatever, you wouldn't like French anymore. It's not about "officialness," it's about understanding what's around you and having respect for local customs.

I do have internal battles about this sometimes in that ethnic enclaves (like Chinatowns or Little Italys or whatever) have existed for a long time and not really hurt anyone. If you don't understand the signs there, you just don't go there, and everyone got along fine keeping to themselves. At the same time, that seems so stupid to me. If we're gonna do multiculturalism, we might as well do it right. We can't live in harmony in Richmond, or Toronto, or LA or Paris or wherever if the new cultures coming in don't accept a certain segment of the culture that was already established there.

Why the West has become treating itself as a cultural blank slate recently is strange to me. Though judging by recent events, this may not last much longer.
Yeah, I've read a number of articles off-SSP on this issue and I've been surprised at how often the idea that English or French would be acceptable languages for condo meetings and minutes in Richmond, because they're Canada's official languages, has come up from BCers.

I suppose there are a few factors at play.

First of all, I think that the fact that French is an official language of Canada alongside English has become a widely accepted reality in Anglo-Canada. It isn't really contested anymore even if people aren't jumping all over each other to learn French. It's part of the "Canada-scape".

The other maybe less sincere reason is that people don't want to look like the stereotypical (think "Ugly American") rubes that are not open to any other languages except English. Saying they're open to French in addition to English easily gets them out of this quandary, even if they know full well than no condo in Richmond will ever be administered in French.
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  #1034  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 2:39 PM
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Yeah, I've read a number of articles off-SSP on this issue and I've been surprised at how often the idea that English or French would be acceptable languages for condo meetings and minutes in Richmond, because they're Canada's official languages, has come up from BCers.

I suppose there are a few factors at play.

First of all, I think that the fact that French is an official language of Canada alongside English has become a widely accepted reality in Anglo-Canada. It isn't really contested anymore even if people aren't jumping all over each other to learn French. It's part of the "Canada-scape".

The other maybe less sincere reason is that people don't want to look like the stereotypical (think "Ugly American") rubes that are not open to any other languages except English. Saying they're open to French in addition to English easily gets them out of this quandary, even if they know full well than no condo in Richmond will ever be administered in French.
I think that's the most likely explanation, combined with the widespread confusion about what official bilingualism is in Canada. We seem to be less comfortable with the knowledge that there is no expectation of bilingualism in Canada outside the requirements of official bilingualism, and no legal basis for assuming that any individual is or should be bilingual, unless legally required (the idea that a PM or SCC justice needs to be bilingual is a relatively recent, and political rather than legal, view).
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  #1035  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2017, 8:27 PM
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This has nothing to do with French. Canada is a bilingual country and ALL legal transactions {which a condo contract is as a condo is technically a corporation} must be in writing and/or presented in one of our 2 official languages..........English or French. The only exceptions I believe are for Native languages.

No one here is saying these condo meeting should be held in French. That is not the issue here. The issue is the fact that these meeting which effect a corporation and potential changes to it were held in Mandarin. It doesn't matter if every person there spoke Mandarine, Canada only has 2 official languages and all legal proceedings must be held in one of the 2.

This is not a cultural issue but a legal one and holding condo meetings in any other language but English and/or French is illegal. Period.
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  #1036  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 12:55 AM
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This has nothing to do with French. Canada is a bilingual country and ALL legal transactions {which a condo contract is as a condo is technically a corporation} must be in writing and/or presented in one of our 2 official languages..........English or French. The only exceptions I believe are for Native languages.

No one here is saying these condo meeting should be held in French. That is not the issue here. The issue is the fact that these meeting which effect a corporation and potential changes to it were held in Mandarin. It doesn't matter if every person there spoke Mandarine, Canada only has 2 official languages and all legal proceedings must be held in one of the 2.

This is not a cultural issue but a legal one and holding condo meetings in any other language but English and/or French is illegal. Period.
Pursuant to which law(s)?
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  #1037  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 5:22 AM
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The Constitution states that Canada has 2 official languages which means that all laws and legal proceedings must be in one of those 2 languages. It does not hold to a contract between 2 persons but does for law and corporate and business contracts. A condominium is a legal corporation and therefore all changes or proposed changes to it must be available to all corporate stakeholders {ie the individual condo owners} in either English or French so that at changes can be reviewed in English or French to make sure they comply with government law and all government law is in either English and/or French.

This is not a matter of whether the condo meeting should be in English because according to the Constitution they must be in one of the official languages.
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  #1038  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 10:45 AM
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In other words, not illegal. However, and I have asked this before without getting a reply, was there ever any indication that the corporate documentation produced by the notorious Richmond condo was not in English? I think it is highly unlikely.
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  #1039  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 1:02 PM
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In other words, not illegal. However, and I have asked this before without getting a reply, was there ever any indication that the corporate documentation produced by the notorious Richmond condo was not in English? I think it is highly unlikely.
In terms of anything required by law or regulations (including meeting minutes, if that's the case) it would all have been in English. If that's what you mean by "corporate documentation".

If you mean stuff like signs that say "NO HAZARDOUS MATERIALS IN GARBAGE CHUTES" or "THE POOL IS CLOSED FOR MAINTENANCE", or paper handouts to condo owners, then it's possible these could be only in Chinese. Though admittedly I have no idea if they ever did this.

So what I am saying is there is likely no wiggle room for Chinese on the former, but probably quite a bit on the latter.
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  #1040  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2017, 3:44 PM
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In terms of anything required by law or regulations (including meeting minutes, if that's the case) it would all have been in English. If that's what you mean by "corporate documentation".

If you mean stuff like signs that say "NO HAZARDOUS MATERIALS IN GARBAGE CHUTES" or "THE POOL IS CLOSED FOR MAINTENANCE", or paper handouts to condo owners, then it's possible these could be only in Chinese. Though admittedly I have no idea if they ever did this.

So what I am saying is there is likely no wiggle room for Chinese on the former, but probably quite a bit on the latter.
As far as I know, the only confirmed use of Mandarin at the condo of reknown, was as the spoken language in some meetings where interpretation may or may not have been available (in at least one report, the condo claimed it was). It has always seemed to me an easily corrected breach of etiquette more than anything else.
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