Tempe Development Thread

[SunDevil]

I will back Dave's. He currently has that space and Tempe has recently been dragged through a bad eminent domain issue (Tempe Marketplace) that has made I and others sympathetic to his cause. The likelihood of any municipal action is low and it is up to the developers to reach a resolution, not the city. However, I will say that most students I have talked with avoid Dave's because the prices are too high. Sure, he has to make his lease payments but I'm not willing to pay $5-6 for a dog and a drink and neither are most students. I live not far from a Wienershnitzel where I can get 2 all beef dogs for the price of one at Dave's, why would I even consider Dave's?

I guess I have conflicting opinions. I would hate to see a local business forced to shut down, but I also don't choose to frequent this business due to my perception of over pricing.

[azsunsurfer]

I don't see what the big deal is, I am enrolled at the College of Design and one day I had to eat at Dave's (not by choice) and I honestly didn't see anything special about. It was overpriced and the food was mediocre at best. I can't wait to see it go, now all I need is for Pita Pit to have reopened when I get back into town for this semester so I can continue studying development.

[azsunsurfer]

Dave needs to move to the cornerstone where he belongs, out of sight!

[Sekkle]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

I live not far from a Wienershnitzel where I can get 2 all beef dogs for the price of one at Dave's, why would I even consider Dave's?

To support a local business instead of some corporate chain.

The point is not whether Dave's has great hot dogs or cheap hot dogs or hot waitresses or clean grease traps. The point is that he shouldn't have to sell out and move because a developer says they want his place. If he wants to stay, he shouldn't be forced out, especially for a private development, no matter how much better the hot dogs are two miles down the street.

[azsunsurfer]

I believe the public will benifit from University Square rather than some crappy local buisness, I honestly will probably frequent the new retail rather than I ever did with Daves.

[sundevilgrad]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

Dave needs to move to the cornerstone where he belongs, out of sight!

Wow! Why all the hate for Dave's? It's definitely disheartening when a student at the College of Design appreciates a horrible, national chain (Pita Pit) over a unique, local business.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by sundevilgrad

Wow! Why all the hate for Dave's? It's definitely disheartening when a student at the College of Design appreciates a horrible, national chain (Pita Pit) over a unique, local business.

Sometimes national chains are tasty, I know a lot of folks who like Pita Pit (Im not big on pitas in general). No reason to support a local business just because its local if its overpriced or doesn't taste good. I'd love to support a place like Sing High downtown, but the food is just awful.

Originally Posted by ForAteOh

To support a local business instead of some corporate chain.

I've never understood this line of thinking. Who cares where the owner lives? Eat the food you think tastes best or at the place that has the best atmosphere. Why does the owners place of residence play into it in anyway?

Now, I eat at a lot of local/unique places because as a biproduct of their locality they usually have more unique items, fresher ingredients, etc. but its never just because they are local.

[azsunsurfer]

Hoover you took the words right out of my mouth, I too eat at "local" places at times but why should you support a buisness even if they are not good just because the owner lives here, a bad product is a bad product, that is why I don't care for Daves, it's not "hate" it's just I'm hoping his mediocre food and high prices will lead to his hopefully soon demise!

[azsunsurfer]

Originally Posted by sundevilgrad

Wow! Why all the hate for Dave's? It's definitely disheartening when a student at the College of Design appreciates a horrible, national chain (Pita Pit) over a unique, local business.

When did you graduate? 1980? You are out of touch with what is going on at the University today so I wouldn't get into it if I were you sir. Things have changed alot since you were going to school then. All of my friends eat at pita pit and I don't think i've had one that is a regular patron to Dave's except the bum that was drinking coke at the table next to me when I was there.

[Sekkle]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

I've never understood this line of thinking. Who cares where the owner lives? Eat the food you think tastes best or at the place that has the best atmosphere. Why does the owners place of residence play into it in anyway?

Yeah, I guess it's ok if a Walmart opens in a small town and drives mom & pop stores out of business. And Starbucks is on every corner, so there is no need for local coffee shops. And I've never had a better meal than at Applebees (ok, maybe Subway, Taco Bell, McDonalds, Chilis, Burger King, etc, etc, etc are all right up there, too). And the local business owners who lose their shops are all welcome to work for shit wages at these chains who couldn't care less about their employees or the community. So I guess you're right... who needs local businesses? Besides, it so comfortable to drive down the street in West Bubblefuck Arkansas and know I can stop into any of my favorite Phoenix-area restaurants and order the same shit I get here.

And PS, the whole "Dave's has the worst, most expensive hot dogs in town" thing has nothing to do with the fact that the guy bought the place and has a right to stay there until lhis lease is up.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by ForAteOh

Yeah, I guess it's ok if a Walmart opens in a small town and drives mom & pop stores out of business. And Starbucks is on every corner, so there is no need for local coffee shops. And I've never had a better meal than at Applebees (ok, maybe Subway, Taco Bell, McDonalds, Chilis, Burger King, etc, etc, etc are all right up there, too). And the local business owners who lose their shops are all welcome to work for shit wages at these chains who couldn't care less about their employees or the community. So I guess you're right... who needs local businesses? Besides, it so comfortable to drive down the street in West Bubblefuck Arkansas and know I can stop into any of my favorite Phoenix-area restaurants and order the same shit I get here.

And PS, the whole "Dave's has the worst, most expensive hot dogs in town" thing has nothing to do with the fact that the guy bought the place and has a right to stay there until lhis lease is up.

Whoa, where did that garbage come from? First off, I've never eaten at Daves, so I can't speak specifically about it. But Weinershnitzel is delicious, and if its better and cheaper than Daves, why not eat there? Who cares that he lives in Arizona? Thats nonsense and you know it.

Eat where you think the food, service, atmosphere and prices most suit your tastes, if that happens to be a chain, who cares?

Anyway, I'm off to get a hot dog at Karims Cobler Shop and Deli downtown, a local place, so don't act like I'm some chain food eating buffoon.

[azsunsurfer]

And PS, the whole "Dave's has the worst, most expensive hot dogs in town" thing has nothing to do with the fact that the guy bought the place and has a right to stay there until lhis lease is up.[/QUOTE]

I supported such Tempe staples as Wet Paint (before they moved) and Arizona Art Supply when I was doing architecture and I am so happy I did. They are local stores and had a lot of character to their buisnesses that the chains didn't. I mean the clerks would recognize me everytime I would go there yet unfortunately you however must have not enrolled in an economics course nor understand the ways of our capitalist society. Globalization is one hard pill you are going to have to learn to swallow my friend. It's also unfortunate you fail to realize that this big bad development University Square will generate a greater amount of tax dollars than this Daves ever will. Bascially we could argue that Daves is impeding the hiring of additional police officers or the construction of a public park because of his greed and adherence to the greater good of the community.

[Sekkle]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Whoa, where did that garbage come from? First off, I've never eaten at Daves, so I can't speak specifically about it. But Weinershnitzel is delicious, and if its better and cheaper than Daves, why not eat there? Who cares that he lives in Arizona? Thats nonsense and you know it.

Eat where you think the food, service, atmosphere and prices most suit your tastes, if that happens to be a chain, who cares?

Anyway, I'm off to get a hot dog at Karims Cobler Shop and Deli downtown, a local place, so don't act like I'm some chain food eating buffoon.

It's nonsense to support local businesses over corporate chains? That's "garbage"? Come on, man.

I'm not saying you don't eat at local restaurants, Hoover - I've had a really hard time stalking you lately since you bought those spiffy new shoes, so I have no idea where you're eating these days I'm not even saying that you should never eat at a chain restaurant. But the answer to the original question "Why would I even consider [a local business]" shouldn't be too difficult to wrap your mind around. Does this really all seem like "garbage"?

[Sekkle]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

you however must have not enrolled in an economics course nor understand the ways of our capitalist society. Globalization is one hard pill you are going to have to learn to swallow my friend. It's also unfortunate you fail to realize that this big bad development University Square will generate a greater amount of tax dollars than this Daves ever will. Bascially we could argue that Daves is impeding the hiring of additional police officers or the construction of a public park because of his greed and adherence to the greater good of the community.

Because *corporate* globalization is happening, does not mean I have to agree with it, like it, swallow it, etc. I understand very well "the ways of our capitalist society." The rules are, the bigger man usually wins. So are you saying I should not try to make a case for local busnesses? I'm not talking about sales tax, I'm talking about the impact a business has on a community - the employees, customers, neighbors, etc. (and I'll stop short of a diatribe on how corporations affect communities in the global South who are so far away that we can't be expected to care about them, right). And as far as Dave sending the City of Tempe into financial crisis, if they're relying on the sales tax from University Square businesses to make their budget work, they're in bigger trouble than any of us here realize.

Listen, I shopped at wet paint, too. If they're comfortable relocating their shop, I don't have a problem with that. And if Dave's is comfortable selling, I don't think that's a bad thing either. I'm not against University Square. I think it could be a nice addition to the area. But they can't kick a guy out just because a couple ASU kids don't like his hot dogs.

[azsunsurfer]

you missed my point completely, I didn't mean Tempe would "need" this development for budget purposes however it would do greater good for the community than an empty lot because of a blighted buisness.

[Sekkle]

^ I didn't miss your point. I was just pointing out how ridiculous it was to say that Tempe couldn't hire cops or build a park because Dave was holding out.

[HooverDam]

ForeAteOh the point I was trying to make is yes, it is garbage logic to say "Ill support local business even if its bad." I would love for downtown Phoenix for instance to have more quality Asian food choices besides Fate, I tried Sing High, but didn't like it (I tried it 3 times in fact, just to give it a fair shake), so now I won't go there anymore, local or not.

It reminds me of my very Christian/Conservative parents who go see these awful movies like "Left Behind" because "oh we have to support the Christian product, even if its bad"- no you don't, demand quality, don't accept junk because its local, or the people who make it have the same beliefs as you. Demand and support quality, thats the only way you send the market proper signals.

[Sekkle]

^ Ok, I agree with that – I’m not saying you have to patronize an establishment you can’t stand just because the guy lives in the same town, and my rant up there may not have been totally applicable to this situation. I just saw “why should I support a locally owned business?” and it set off some kind of alarm with me (and, reading SunDevil’s original post again, he probably wasn’t even saying that anyway). I just think that, if things are relatively equal (it’s often difficult for locally-owned places to undersell big chains, of course, but that’s something I’m usually willing to accept), it’s a much better bet to go local. If anybody disagrees with that, well, I’m done ranting, so you win!

But I do think there is a problem with a developer kicking a small tenant like Dave’s out or trying to strong-arm. This is not a question of eminent domain – U. Square isn’t a public project, and this is not a blighted area. As much as I like to see increased density in downtown Tempe, the guy has a right to have his business there, and just because a developer has money, doesn’t mean he should get to kick out anyone who doesn’t want to leave.

[Don B.]

This entire debate between local and national chains is largely academic, anyway. Points to consider:

1. Most (if not the vast majority) of local chain stores are owned by local owners. For example, in many chains, the individual stores are franchised and thus locally owned. These owners pour money back into the community. They have to live somewhere, buy stuff for home, for their kids, etc. Some are out of state owners but many are locally owned. Some local owners own a number of stores and can become quite wealthy as a result. They all buy cars, appliances, houses and other goods that drives our economy.

2. Regardless of where the paychecks come from, all of these stores have to have employees. Those employees, ranging from $50,000 per year managers, assistant managers, shift supervisors on down to fry cooks and part-time help by and large live in the communities they work in. They all derive their living from the parent company. If Arizona's hundreds of McDonald's stores went out of business, that would put tens of thousands of people out of work and drive up Arizona's unemployment rate in an instant. This would hurt many families and people that make good money. When I was a kid 20 years ago, I worked for $3.35 per hour at a KFC. Now I see stores hiring at $7, 8 and even $10 per hour for the same job I did for far less.

3. Working in just about any business teaches you things about working, saving, making money and spending it. Eliminate all of the chain stores so many on this forum wish to deride and you eliminate a lot of these opportunities. Many employees start low and work their way up. It's the American way. To quote the Klingon prison warden from Star Trek VI: "Work well, and you will be treated well. Work badly, and you will die." Well, either that or have nothing.

4. This guy holding out (when he is not even a property owner but merely a lessee) is not logical, to quote Spock. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

--don

[Archdevil]

Daves little doghouse is not holding up University Square! The developers can and will have him removed at any given time they want. They will buy him out or push him out and it doesn't matter how, it will be done. And I'm sure Dave will not go up against these guys in court, that alone would probably send his little doghouse bankrupt. As mentioned above, he has a lease and does not own the land. The developers will take action when they need to. The last I heard was that they were breaking ground in Sept. Of course that probably won't happen but it will be due to market conditions and financing not "the little doghouse that could".