TriMet/Metro Southwest Corridor Planning (Portland to Bridgeport Village)

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

Well, it does make sense, actually; it'll save a few hundred million dollars.

Sure, but if it is about saving money, then the tunnel option to OHSU should be off the table too.

[maccoinnich]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

Well, it does make sense, actually; it'll save a few hundred million dollars.

Will it? I haven't seen any cost estimates in any of the documents published by Metro, much less a benefit-cost analysis. There's no way that building a light rail line along the side of Marquam Hill can be cheap either, and if they do build a tunnel under OHSU they'll already have acquired TBMs.

[dubu]

a train tunnel to hillsdale then extending it in the future makes more sense then taking out two lanes on a highway.

[bvpcvm]

You have a good point. I'm guessing, of course, about "hundreds" of millions, but it stands to reason that 3 miles of tunnel and a couple underground stations would necessarily be much more expensive than a surface route, even one that requires some excavation and/or elevated structures. I guess a surface route would require some mitigation against landslides; that would certainly up the cost. But that would be offset by savings of at least one underground station, ventilation systems, security issues, etc.

[dubu]

in a area with a subway and away from the highway and freeway you dont have to have places to park

[urbanlife]

Well this looks like some good news, the Southwest Corridor study is being delayed, but for a good reason.

But a late flurry of technical questions, plus testimony Monday from Southwest Portland residents hoping for more transit service to Hillsdale and Multnomah Village, prompted the committee to slow the process down.

- See more at: http://www.oregonmetro.gov/portland-....iEYIaleH.dpuf

The bad news, we will have to wait until November to see what they decide to send to the Environmental Impact Statement process.

[tworivers]

Hard to see this as good news IMO. Sure, we should have a "community conversation" (truly a specialty of Portland ), but then the city should think long-term and figure out how to make a tunnel work.

I'm not optimistic, though. Portland is such a comparatively poor city; I was thinking about this in London ("duh", I know), where they throw so much money into high design and the kind of amenities we can only dream of. Portland is just poor. Hell, we didn't even provide access for bikers and pedestrians on the new flyover from Lincoln to Sowa because we saved a whopping 3.9 million. This in a city that is supposed to be shooting for a 25% bicycle mode split.

City Commissioner Steve Novick Asks Metro to Slow Down on MAX Tunnel Under OHSU
June 10th, 2014 | by AARON MESH News / WW
...

Now he's warning regional government Metro to slow down on its biggest potential construction job: drilling a tunnel under Oregon Health & Sciences University to run a light-rail line to Tualatin.

Metro News first reported Monday that Novick asked a Metro committee to look at the local costs of a new tunnel under OHSU and Hillsdale before doing any further studies or seeking federal funds.

Novick tells WW the cost of a tunnel could run as high as $2 billion—with local governments footing half the bill.

...

story here

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by tworivers

Hard to see this as good news IMO. Sure, we should have a "community conversation" (truly a specialty of Portland ), but then the city should think long-term and figure out how to make a tunnel work.

I'm not optimistic, though. Portland is such a comparatively poor city; I was thinking about this in London ("duh", I know), where they throw so much money into high design and the kind of amenities we can only dream of. Portland is just poor. Hell, we didn't even provide access for bikers and pedestrians on the new flyover from Lincoln to Sowa because we saved a whopping 3.9 million. This in a city that is supposed to be shooting for a 25% bicycle mode split.

City Commissioner Steve Novick Asks Metro to Slow Down on MAX Tunnel Under OHSU
June 10th, 2014 | by AARON MESH News / WW
...

Now he's warning regional government Metro to slow down on its biggest potential construction job: drilling a tunnel under Oregon Health & Sciences University to run a light-rail line to Tualatin.

Metro News first reported Monday that Novick asked a Metro committee to look at the local costs of a new tunnel under OHSU and Hillsdale before doing any further studies or seeking federal funds.

Novick tells WW the cost of a tunnel could run as high as $2 billion—with local governments footing half the bill.

...

story here

That is true, I will be annoyed if they do this delay just to run it along 99W or I-5.

OHSU and Hillsdale should definitely be along the route of the new line simply because one is a job center and the other is set up to be a high density transit center hub. I could easily see Hillsdale turning into an urban neighborhood with a light rail stop in the middle of it.

I will have to say, I have been getting annoyed with Steve Novick lately. I really liked the guy back when he once campaigned for the Senate, and thought he would be a great fit for Portland's City Council, but lately he seems to be the guy with mediocre ideas and wants Portland to take the mediocre route for anything. If Portland was wanting to expend the light rail west today, Novick probably would have been against the tunnel to the westside with the zoo stop.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

OHSU and Hillsdale should definitely be along the route of the new line simply because one is a job center and the other is set up to be a high density transit center hub. I could easily see Hillsdale turning into an urban neighborhood with a light rail stop in the middle of it.

The neighborhood plan, in fact, calls for high density housing which, iirc, included allowances for 15-20 story towers.

[EastsideView]

I have mentioned this somewhere but I will ask the question again here.

Would it be possible to have one tunnel station (each station cost like $20M) for the two locations and use escalator-like structures (enclosed pods for safety). North escalator go to OHSU and South Escalator goes to Hillsdale).

Think outside the box Tri-Met, Metro, and CoPDX.

Stairs could be build but only used during breakdowns for egress issues.

EastsideView

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Will it? I haven't seen any cost estimates in any of the documents published by Metro, much less a benefit-cost analysis. There's no way that building a light rail line along the side of Marquam Hill can be cheap either, and if they do build a tunnel under OHSU they'll already have acquired TBMs.

Won't it also need several bridges that parallel barbur and I-5? None of the ground in that area is flat except on Barbur!

=======

Anyways, the culture of Trimet and Metro holds the belief that any transit service, no matter how slow, can induce "transit oriented development." They have proven over and over that the speed or quality of the service is essentially irrelevant. Does the planning process even have a method of comparing long-term operational costs of a faster, more frequent grade-separated line than one that runs in the middle of the street?

Straighter track = higher speeds, lower maintenance costs. Those maintenance costs will likely dwarf the initial capitol construction costs. We really should be building this thing the right way now - we won't get a second chance!

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by EastsideView

I have mentioned this somewhere but I will ask the question again here.

Would it be possible to have one tunnel station (each station cost like $20M) for the two locations and use escalator-like structures (enclosed pods for safety). North escalator go to OHSU and South Escalator goes to Hillsdale).

Think outside the box Tri-Met, Metro, and CoPDX.

Stairs could be build but only used during breakdowns for egress issues.

EastsideView

???? Are you inventing a new type of transportation device? Or are you talking about an underground funicular? The distance between Hillsdale and OHSU is ~2 miles, longer than the tram. Excavating a 4-mile tunnel and laying tracks, etc... not to mention the topography, which would require the track to come out of the ground in the middle of a hilly residential district. I don't think you could even begin to do cost estimation on something like that, the geotechnical challenge would be incredibly complex.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by EastsideView

I have mentioned this somewhere but I will ask the question again here.

Would it be possible to have one tunnel station (each station cost like $20M) for the two locations and use escalator-like structures (enclosed pods for safety). North escalator go to OHSU and South Escalator goes to Hillsdale).

No, that would not be possible at all. OHSU and Hillsdale are at least a mile apart. A station at OHSU would be about 300 feet deep; Hillsdale, less than 100 feet deep. How could you possibly run escalators from a single station to serve both stops?

I'm actually hoping this delay will allow Hillsdale and OHSU time to rally for a tunnel alignment instead of a surface alignment that could possibly be as expensive as the tunnel. Building an aerial structure on the side of an unstable steep slope (Barbur between Hamilton and Terwilliger) is almost certainly going to be astronomically expensive and could actually be MORE expensive than a bored tunnel. That is the kind of cost analysis that needs to be done before eliminating the option for tunnels under OHSU and Hillsdale.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

The neighborhood plan, in fact, calls for high density housing which, iirc, included allowances for 15-20 story towers.

Oh wow, I never saw that plan. I didn't know it actually called for towers. I would love to see a residential skyline develop in Hillsdale someday in the future.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

No, that would not be possible at all. OHSU and Hillsdale are at least a mile apart. A station at OHSU would be about 300 feet deep; Hillsdale, less than 100 feet deep. How could you possibly run escalators from a single station to serve both stops?

I'm actually hoping this delay will allow Hillsdale and OHSU time to rally for a tunnel alignment instead of a surface alignment that could possibly be as expensive as the tunnel. Building an aerial structure on the side of an unstable steep slope (Barbur between Hamilton and Terwilliger) is almost certainly going to be astronomically expensive and could actually be MORE expensive than a bored tunnel. That is the kind of cost analysis that needs to be done before eliminating the option for tunnels under OHSU and Hillsdale.

That is what I was thinking, basically the only thing they could do to really save money would be to lose a lane each way on Barbur for light rail, but even then they would have to probably rebuild each bridge and make sure the road was able to handle running trains on it. In the end, I doubt there would be much cost savings because that stretch of road is nothing but complicated and adding another layer to it with rail is just gonna make it more complicated.

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

Oh wow, I never saw that plan. I didn't know it actually called for towers. I would love to see a residential skyline develop in Hillsdale someday in the future.

The Brooklyn area plans seem to allow 10-12 floor (about 125 ft) buildings along SE 17 and parts near Hogate, 99E, and Powell. Lots of bike lanes as well through that area.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by davehogan

The Brooklyn area plans seem to allow 10-12 floor (about 125 ft) buildings along SE 17 and parts near Hogate, 99E, and Powell. Lots of bike lanes as well through that area.

Oh wow, I didn't know it would allow for building that big in Brooklyn. I am excited to see inner Portland becoming more dense.

[hat]

Some perspective on highways and transit on Wired.

[hat]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

That is what I was thinking, basically the only thing they could do to really save money would be to lose a lane each way on Barbur for light rail, but even then they would have to probably rebuild each bridge and make sure the road was able to handle running trains on it. In the end, I doubt there would be much cost savings because that stretch of road is nothing but complicated and adding another layer to it with rail is just gonna make it more complicated.

Barbur south of Hamilton is 5 lanes plus an extra-wide median and two bike lanes. Although it is very likely the bridges would need to be rebuilt for a MAX, it may not be necessary to widen Barbur.

With the change (see project 1044 on the changes to the draft) in access to the Ross Island Bridge re-creating the neighborhood that was, Barbur will have a lot less traffic. It seems a push from the MAX might be a fantastic change for Lair Hill. If the Short tunnel to OHSU is deemed necessary, a station at Hamilton and narrowing of Barbur would provide enough traffic calming to make this a neighborhood again.

Although I am open to the idea of an extended tunnel to Hillsdale and beyond, the short tunnel along with the local bicycle improvements, seems like a pretty sweet deal.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by hat

Barbur south of Hamilton is 5 lanes plus an extra-wide median and two bike lanes. Although it is very likely the bridges would need to be rebuilt for a MAX, it may not be necessary to widen Barbur.

With the change (see project 1044 on the changes to the draft) in access to the Ross Island Bridge re-creating the neighborhood that was, Barbur will have a lot less traffic. It seems a push from the MAX might be a fantastic change for Lair Hill. If the Short tunnel to OHSU is deemed necessary, a station at Hamilton and narrowing of Barbur would provide enough traffic calming to make this a neighborhood again.

Although I am open to the idea of an extended tunnel to Hillsdale and beyond, the short tunnel along with the local bicycle improvements, seems like a pretty sweet deal.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Reconfiguring the Ross Island Bridgehead only somewhat reduces traffic on Barbur, and ONLY in the Lair Hill neighborhood. South of the 1st/Barbur merge, traffic patterns won't change. Barbur will still be as busy, or more likely busier, than it is today.

If you want to keep MAX or grade-separated BRT on Barbur, you most definitely will need to add two more lanes PLUS (in the case of MAX) rebuild the existing viaducts. Tremendously expensive!! So much so, that a tunnel is very likely the LESS expensive option to the Burlingame neighborhood. And a road diet for Barbur is never gonna happen between Hamilton and Terwilliger.

I'm glad Novick is pushing to get some actual cost estimates for this project first instead of just assuming that a tunnel is prohibitively expensive. Get some actual numbers, THEN weigh the cost benefits of all of the options.