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  #181  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 12:15 AM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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Originally Posted by 2oh1 View Post
Sadly, I don't believe that to be true. Most people don't like busses. Look at the impact the streetcar has had. Trimet could have run busses along that exact same route (I'm talking about the original NW loop) but it wouldn't have made anywhere near as much of an impact, even if the busses had much greater frequency. It isn't just about getting from point A to point B. It's about how you get there. I have plenty of friends who've taken MAX to the zoo, but I can't name a single one who has ever taken a bus to get there. I have plenty of friends who've taken MAX to Lloyd Center, but I can't name a single one who has ever taken a bus to get there.

Every friend I have who used to ride a bus to work eventually bought a car. Every friend I have who moved along a streetcar or MAX route and was able to ride it to work eventually did, and many sold their cars.

Streetcars make a huge impact in terms of creating neighborhoods where people feel like they don't need cars. Busses don't. Busses give people the ability to get from point A to point B without a car, but light rail is usually what makes people choose mass transit instead of driving. What I don't understand is, why aren't transit agencies learning this lesson and making their busses be more like streetcars? So far, the only city that seems to have figured it out is Bogota.
I'm skeptical of the claim that 'most people don't like buses' because, well, since I left Portland I've lived in a series of cities with extensive and reliable bus networks... and people in all those cities seem to like buses. So that leads me to suspect that people just don't like waiting in the rain forever for a bus that comes infrequently and takes too long to deliver you too far from where you actually need to be.

What is it that you think causes people to prefer the streetcar? How could we make buses 'more like streetcars'? The only thing I know about Bogotá is that its BRT runs in dedicated lanes, so it probably delivers you pretty quickly to wherever you're going... which is more than the Portland Streetcar can claim. I've ridden BRT in Mexico City, whose network was copied from Bogotá's... and in Mexico City I definitely preferred riding the ordinary buses, the peseros and micros.

As for improving bus service, one feature that's helped get me on the bus here in London is the maps provided at every bus shelter. They show not just the bus stop you're standing at but all of the bus stops within walking distance of you... and in one easily intelligible diagram, all the places you can get to from any one of those bus stops. But perhaps these maps seem so impressive to me because they beautifully simplify what is, in fact, a bloody incredibly complicated and extensive transit network.
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  #182  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 12:34 AM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
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Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
I'm skeptical of the claim that 'most people don't like buses' because, well, since I left Portland I've lived in a series of cities with extensive and reliable bus networks... and people in all those cities seem to like buses. So that leads me to suspect that people just don't like waiting in the rain forever for a bus that comes infrequently and takes too long to deliver you too far from where you actually need to be.

What is it that you think causes people to prefer the streetcar? How could we make buses 'more like streetcars'? The only thing I know about Bogotá is that its BRT runs in dedicated lanes, so it probably delivers you pretty quickly to wherever you're going... which is more than the Portland Streetcar can claim. I've ridden BRT in Mexico City, whose network was copied from Bogotá's... and in Mexico City I definitely preferred riding the ordinary buses, the peseros and micros.

As for improving bus service, one feature that's helped get me on the bus here in London is the maps provided at every bus shelter. They show not just the bus stop you're standing at but all of the bus stops within walking distance of you... and in one easily intelligible diagram, all the places you can get to from any one of those bus stops. But perhaps these maps seem so impressive to me because they beautifully simplify what is, in fact, a bloody incredibly complicated and extensive transit network.
I don't think anyone should be able to deny with a straight face a streetcar wasn't better than a bus in this instance to spur development. It obviously was the right choice to get development to occur.
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  #183  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 2:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
That's not surprising. Mass transit was underwhelming when I lived in Portland (fairly close-in on the eastside, back when that was affordable) and I understand it's only suffered cutbacks since then. I wouldn't have had the patience to put up with the infrequency and gaps in Portland bus service... fortunately, I had a bicycle and a rainjacket (okay, most of the time I just had a bicycle, and mud splatters all over my jeans). But that's evidently not for everyone. Compare Portland with any city where a large sector of the population commutes by transit... and those other cities will have far better transit.

Portland will have to make the transit investments before its increasing density can fully justify them. Fire everyone in leadership positions at Tri-Met (they all seem to be morons), then triple its budget. Lots more buses = fewer cars.
When did you move away? Trimet suffered cutbacks when they were having budget issues due to the recession, but if I am not mistaken most of the lines are back up to pre-recession frequency.
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  #184  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 8:58 AM
RED_PDXer RED_PDXer is offline
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From what I know, bus service is back to pre-recession levels for the most part, except for some Sunday service. Cutting back service due to a severe national recession isn't reason to fire all TriMet management. It seems they were able to deal with recession as best as could be expected.
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  #185  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 9:41 AM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY View Post
I don't think anyone should be able to deny with a straight face a streetcar wasn't better than a bus in this instance to spur development. It obviously was the right choice to get development to occur.
I wasn't talking about spurring development, I was talking about providing service. So people can sell their cars.

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Originally Posted by RED_PDXer View Post
From what I know, bus service is back to pre-recession levels for the most part, except for some Sunday service. Cutting back service due to a severe national recession isn't reason to fire all TriMet management. It seems they were able to deal with recession as best as could be expected.
I'm surprised to hear anyone actually defending Tri-Met's management. Do you ride the bus, RED_PDXer?

I may be quite ignorant on this subject, but here are the reasons why I have the impression they're incompetent and should all be canned.

Tri-Met's ridership has been flat during a period when ridership is increasing in the rest of the country. The cost of a 30-day pass is far higher in Portland than in US cities with far better transit systems. And Tri-Met continues to blame the recession and labor unions for its money troubles, since management has decided not to be straightforward with the public and at least acknowledge for example that the whole WES project was/is asinine stupidity. Also, their bloated administration was awarding itself secret pay raises as Tri-Met was cutting service. Kate Brown's audit noted that morale among Tri-Met employees is abysmal, which is generally a good indication that an organization is failing.

And they killed the Fareless Square.
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  #186  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 10:28 AM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
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Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
I wasn't talking about spurring development, I was talking about providing service. So people can sell their cars.
That's an obfuscation; living close in begets a lifestyle of low-car use. Development along the line allows that. Having tons of transit helps too.
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  #187  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 12:03 PM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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Originally Posted by PDXDENSITY View Post
That's an obfuscation; living close in begets a lifestyle of low-car use. Development along the line allows that. Having tons of transit helps too.
These are fine points, and I should clarify that I like the streetcar and want to see it expanded. It makes sense for providing service and 'spurring development' along the denser corridors of Portland's former streetcar suburbs. But also I think the streetcar can be made too much of by its boosters; and I particularly object if the corollary of fetishing the streetcar is the implication there's something wrong with the bus. The streetcar's existence should not be an alibi for shitty bus service, you and I can probably agree.

There are benefits to running a fixed route, but is the experience of riding the streetcar magical? I don't think there's anything particularly special about riding streetcars in Berlin or Rome or Vienna (other cities in which they don't, for the most part, enjoy dedicated lanes), or the Docklands Light Rail line in London. I suspect the reason why certain people find the Portland Streetcar so preferable is that it runs through the parts of our city that these people find most vibrant and iconic and that they're the most proud of. Also, people who live downtown are probably joined by more of their neighbors and coworkers on their daily commute than people who commute from Woodlawn, say. Or at least by people of their own social class. And finally, the route through downtown isn't that long, so it doesn't have time to get tedious.

Streetcars also have far more attractive windows than the cheap, darkened plastic windows of Tri-Met's bus fleet, if my memory serves, which is an aspect of the experience that should hardly be overlooked. The front-row seats on the upper story of London's buses have marvelous panoramic windows through which to enjoy the spectacle of the city while you're stuck in traffic. 2oh1, I really am interested in knowing how you think buses can be made more like streetcars.

In any case, though. There are plenty of lovely things about bicycling, too. But these don't obviate the need for buses.
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  #188  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 12:40 PM
soleri soleri is offline
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It's going to be interesting to see how this ultimately all works out. Increasingly, people want to be in central Portland. They also want to avoid the hassle and expense of parking. Buses may be downscale but they actually move fairly quickly (compare and contrast to the MAX). Over time, service may improve as ridership necessarily grows.

Riding the bus is a bit like going to a dive bar and drinking PBR. You want authentic? That's the bus. By contrast, the streetcar is like going to a pleasant coffee bar in the Pearl. I know why people prefer it but they're really missing something, too. Gentrification is inevitable and Portland is benefiting in tangible ways from it. But once all the grit is scrubbed away, Portland will seem much more sanitized and boring. Enjoy the bus while you still can.
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  #189  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 1:53 PM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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Originally Posted by soleri View Post
Over time, service may improve as ridership necessarily grows.
I, on the other hand, think that service must improve first if we want ridership to grow.

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Originally Posted by soleri View Post
Riding the bus is a bit like going to a dive bar and drinking PBR. You want authentic? That's the bus. By contrast, the streetcar is like going to a pleasant coffee bar in the Pearl. I know why people prefer it but they're really missing something, too. Gentrification is inevitable and Portland is benefiting in tangible ways from it. But once all the grit is scrubbed away, Portland will seem much more sanitized and boring. Enjoy the bus while you still can.
Um, soleri, c'mon. This is kitschy; you're making it about class when it really shouldn't be. No transit system which is successful (in First World countries, anyway) is perceived by its users as gritty. And why should it be. Civic amenities should be nice so that people are proud of them. You presumably wouldn't advocate building 'downscale' parks and squares in our city, or warehousing our children in 'downscale' schools. So why crow about many of our residents having to ride 'downscale' buses?
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  #190  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 2:25 PM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
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Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
I, on the other hand, think that service must improve first if we want ridership to grow.
Agree. Let's expand MAX and the streetcar. Buses can be bumped up, too, but not as some conservative back to basics trope for transit. As a careful addition of frequency/routes, not a wholesale throwing of money at buses.
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  #191  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 3:36 PM
soleri soleri is offline
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Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
I, on the other hand, think that service must improve first if we want ridership to grow.



Um, soleri, c'mon. This is kitschy; you're making it about class when it really shouldn't be. No transit system which is successful (in First World countries, anyway) is perceived by its users as gritty. And why should it be. Civic amenities should be nice so that people are proud of them. You presumably wouldn't advocate building 'downscale' parks and squares in our city, or warehousing our children in 'downscale' schools. So why crow about many of our residents having to ride 'downscale' buses?
Just sayin': if you fancy yourself a sophisticate but won't ride the bus, you're not really getting the authentic Portland experience. This is - or was - a real working-class city at one time. Even the hipsters who moved here got that and tweaked the vibe in a Tom Waits kind of way. If you insist on the sanitized version, you're missing something crucial. It's vanishing as we type, but there's still some magic in the recesses.
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  #192  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 3:45 PM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
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Originally Posted by soleri View Post
Just sayin': if you fancy yourself a sophisticate but won't ride the bus, you're not really getting the authentic Portland experience. This is - or was - a real working-class city at one time. Even the hipsters who moved here got that and tweaked the vibe in a Tom Waits kind of way. If you insist on the sanitized version, you're missing something crucial. It's vanishing as we type, but there's still some magic in the recesses.
Oh come on. They have barely demo'd any houses. We're only ADDING stock with high rises here and there, not even as fast as we should to keep up with demand. This is sentimentalist rubbish. We're not losing anything, you're just scared of change being added to the city you'd prefer preserved in amber. I suggest SF; they're doing a good job at that.
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  #193  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 4:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
I'm skeptical of the claim that 'most people don't like buses' because, well, since I left Portland I've lived in a series of cities with extensive and reliable bus networks... and people in all those cities seem to like buses. So that leads me to suspect that people just don't like waiting in the rain forever for a bus that comes infrequently and takes too long to deliver you too far from where you actually need to be.
I can only speak for myself, but I hate riding buses here. They are noisy, jerky, cramped and all around unpleasant to ride in. The jerkiness I find especially irritating. The weaving over and hydraulic up and down at every stop. Any time I have lived near the Max line I have used it with some frequency, however in the five years I have lived here I have taken a bus on maybe 5-6 occasions. There were many times that taking a bus would have been a faster option, but I would rather take twice as long and just walk.

I never minded the MAX or streetcar, to be fair I actually miss riding them.
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  #194  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post
I wasn't talking about spurring development, I was talking about providing service. So people can sell their cars.
I know you were replying to PDXdensity, but I'll follow up on that thought anyway. Personally, I don't care about the streetcar spurring development. There's no question that it does, but frankly, I don't care. I care about people and transit. Light rail gets people out of their cars in ways busses cannot. It's the sort of thing that, on paper, probably makes no sense, but in practice, it's hard to not notice.

As I said, everyone I know who used to take the bus to work eventually bought a car... but everyone I know who had the ability to ride the streetcar or MAX to work eventually stopped driving and rode mass transit instead - and those people tend to use it for leisure too. I've lived downtown for 13 years. During the fareless square days, I never once hung out with somebody who said "I'm tired of walking. Let's take a bus to the pub." But I can't even count the number of times a friend would say "Let's catch the next streetcar."

I've lived a block away from both bus and streetcar stops for 13 years. Never once has anyone mentioned the bus stop, but I can't even count the number of times I've been told how lucky I am to live near the streetcar.

If Trimet were to announce they were removing the streetcars and replacing them with busses, people would be in an uproar.

If Trimet were to announce they were building streetcar lines to replace a few bus routes, people along those routes would be celebrating.

The idea that people don't prefer light rail by a wide margin is silly. It's silly.
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  #195  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 6:23 PM
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Riding the bus is a bit like going to a dive bar and drinking PBR. You want authentic? That's the bus. By contrast, the streetcar is like going to a pleasant coffee bar in the Pearl.
Vintage Portland also didn't have microbrews. That didn't really begin until the mid 80s when brewpubs were legalized. Who cares? I'll take the microbrews over a PBR experience that may be more vintage.
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  #196  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 8:44 PM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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Reading all these responses almost has me convinced that buses should be banned from Portland as a human rights issue. No one should be forced to endure this humiliating, degrading mode of transit on a daily basis!

Except that I know from experience in many European cities that buses don't have to be noisy, smelly, cramped and unpleasant. You can board them quickly, without fumbling in your pocket for exact change to drop in the slot in front of the driver; you can get on and off without having to climb those narrow stairs; they can run very reliably, and frequently enough that you don't need to consult a schedule, even if you'll need to transfer. 2oh1, you asked 'Why aren't transit agencies making their buses be more like streetcars?' Well, I think in many European cities, they have.

I'll grant that trains have one unassailable advantage over buses: it's smoother to travel on rails. This is one reason I despise the Metrobús, Mexico City's dedicated BRT. Most riders have to stand (which is fine on a train), but here the ride's so jerky and there aren't enough handles... so bodies go flying and crashing everywhere. Buses may never be as smooth as trains... but if they're run frequently enough during rush hour that nearly everyone has a seat, or at least something to hold onto or lean on if they're standing; if they're designed so they don't vexingly rattle or need to make hydraulic maneuvers at every stop, then I don't think this needs to be something you really notice.

In any case, riding the bus is part of living in any real city. It's something Portland eventually needs to get right.
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  #197  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2015, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RED_PDXer View Post
From what I know, bus service is back to pre-recession levels for the most part, except for some Sunday service. Cutting back service due to a severe national recession isn't reason to fire all TriMet management. It seems they were able to deal with recession as best as could be expected.
Some lines have been restored to pre recession levels, but plenty still are operating at the reduced headways of 2010, including some pretty well used routes.

I ride the bus a bit, but I'd ride it a lot more if it was more frequent or ran later. Bus service to/from Sellwood/Westmoreland stops at about 10:15 pm, even on weekends for one example. The new MAX should help with that, but it does seem silly that it takes a $1.5 billion capital investment to have service that runs until at least 11 pm to those neighborhoods.
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  #198  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2015, 12:19 AM
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I know this thread isn't about busses but while we're all on the topic I'll throw in my two cents.

When I first moved to Portland in 2009 I rarely took the bus because I lived near the MAX and Streetcar. Now I live on bus line 15 which is "frequent service". I do not consider 15 minute frequencies to be frequent at all having lived in London where the bus line near my flat came every 3-5 minutes during peak times. The 15 comes early pretty often and I don't think TriMet busses pause to regulate the service like TFL busses did in London. If you miss one having to wait another 15 minutes or more is pretty awful.

When done right I don't think busses are harder to figure out than rail. With good signage and well designed apps anyone can find their way through a complex bus system.

A lot of the non-downtown bus stops here don't even have real time bus arrival screens which I think makes things pretty difficult. I also don't like how the stops aren't announced on board unless it's a transfer stop. It makes it hard especially at night to figure out when you need to request a stop if you aren't familiar with the area. Cashless boarding would also speed things up if we had a smart card system in place. Most importantly though they need to increase frequencies even to every 10 minutes if they want to grow ridership. It really makes me want to buy a car and I hate driving.
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  #199  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2015, 8:23 PM
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Portland's tech scene continues to fuel the office space boom



Portland's rapidly-growing tech sector is not only adding jobs across the Rose City, but it's helping to transform the office market here as well.

That's according to JLL's 2015 Technology Office Outlook, a new report that reinforces an ongoing trend that's been unfolding in Portland in recent years.

“It’s an exciting time for Portland," said Craig Reinhart, head of JLL’s technology practice group in Portland, in a release about the report. "We have a high amenity lifestyle here, just as many other major cities in the region, but our low cost of doing business relative to major markets like New York and San Francisco and the high concentration of creative and educated talent here makes the city an increasingly desirable location for expanding tech companies.

"We are no longer a ‘flyover’ market between Seattle and Silicon Valley. We not only attract talent and great companies from around the globe, but also grow great Oregon technology companies.”
...continues at the Portland Business Journal.
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  #200  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2015, 8:29 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
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I'm getting worried about this trend. While I welcome the influx of rental units, at some point there needs to be new housing supply available for people to buy (and I think we might have passed that point a while back).


Quote:
Nearly all new Portland-area housing units are rentals, data shows



Virtually all of the 47,500-plus housing units added since the recession in the four-county Portland area are rentals rather than owner-occupied homes, according to new numbers released by the U.S. Census Bureau.

The trend is consistent across Multnomah, Washington, Clackamas and Clark counties: While the number of apartments or rental homes has surged over the last five years, the number of new homeowners has barely budged. The result is a decline in the regional homeownership rate overall, from 63 percent to 60.

"Well, no wonder it's so hard to find houses to sell," said Leslie Jones, principal broker with Re/Max Equity Group. "Our inventory is so low because so many things are being held as rentals instead."
...continues at the Oregonian.
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