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  #341  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2017, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
London's core is just as wealth-centric, perhaps even worse. And it has tons of postwar and modern construction.

And it isn't like all of Paris' core is a golden ghetto. There are plenty of streets with blatant prostitution, dumpy stores, concentrations of poor, etc.

Last visit I saw a street brawl in Pigalle, steps from Moulin Rouge. The areas around Gare du Nord and Gare d l'Est are pretty seedy. Then there's that area north of Les Halles with all the African businesses and obvious illegal stuff going on.
Right, its the ultra wealthy and third world immigrants willing to endure cramped conditions who live in the city center now.
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  #342  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2017, 5:20 AM
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Nor should it IMO.
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  #343  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2017, 1:54 PM
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Do people honestly believe Paris will remain a museum and not change due to economics and demand?

The museum idea can only last for so long. At some point, pressure will build up for changes to zoning. The city will grow, and that pressure will force departments (zoning/buildings) to modify the rules and codes.

Its happening in London, and Paris will eventually lax its requirements.

It can be done though in a manner that emphasis preservation. Not everything can be saved though but with committees and a process in terms of landmark neighborhoods and modification to those neighborhood, there needs to be a 50/50 compromise between developers and neighborhood officials. Kinda like a checks and balances system. BUT what it shouldn't be is a one sided discussion at all times. Growth is important, and stifling it, can really hurt residents.
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  #344  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2017, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Do people honestly believe Paris will remain a museum and not change due to economics and demand?

The museum idea can only last for so long. At some point, pressure will build up for changes to zoning. The city will grow, and that pressure will force departments (zoning/buildings) to modify the rules and codes.

Its happening in London, and Paris will eventually lax its requirements.

It can be done though in a manner that emphasis preservation. Not everything can be saved though but with committees and a process in terms of landmark neighborhoods and modification to those neighborhood, there needs to be a 50/50 compromise between developers and neighborhood officials. Kinda like a checks and balances system. BUT what it shouldn't be is a one sided discussion at all times. Growth is important, and stifling it, can really hurt residents.
Paris is one of the densest cities in the Western world already. They don't need to build up in central Paris.
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  #345  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2017, 2:24 PM
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Paris is one of the densest cities in the Western world already. They don't need to build up in central Paris.
That's a short term viewpoint. We have to think long term. 10... 15... 30 years down the line. The policies set now, will have profound long term prospects. Prices can only rise so much, until they kill the culture and push the residents that make Paris what it is. A museum outlook on a city, will only turn it into a Monaco. More supply is needed.

People are the lifeblood of a city. A city should have a diverse portfolio of residents. Museum policy will only push them out due to rising prices.
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  #346  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2017, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
That's a short term viewpoint. We have to think long term. 10... 15... 30 years down the line. The policies set now, will have profound long term prospects. Prices can only rise so much, until they kill the culture and push the residents that make Paris what it is. A museum outlook on a city, will only turn it into a Monaco. More supply is needed.

People are the lifeblood of a city. A city should have a diverse portfolio of residents. Museum policy will only push them out due to rising prices.
So you want it to look like Shanghai? No thanks.

As I've said a million times, the answer is transport. It will never be cheap to live in the middle of the world's great cities. It was never supposed to be in the first place. You just need to make life easier for commuters. London's Crossrail project is a great example of this.

You also have a screwy view of long-term, considering Paris has looked much like it does now for at least 150 years.
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  #347  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2017, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Do people honestly believe Paris will remain a museum and not change due to economics and demand?

The museum idea can only last for so long. At some point, pressure will build up for changes to zoning. The city will grow, and that pressure will force departments (zoning/buildings) to modify the rules and codes.

Its happening in London, and Paris will eventually lax its requirements.
Paris is MUCH denser than London. Paris probably has the second largest high density (say 50,000+ psm) core in the western world. I think only NYC and Barcelona would be in the same general ballpark.

There is zero need to destroy Paris' center, which is beloved worldwide and the primary reason Paris is the #1 tourist destination on the planet. There are plenty of crappy fringe areas that can be redeveloped.

And Paris has tons of construction, probably not that different from London. It just isn't in the core.
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  #348  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2017, 5:51 PM
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The Paris region actually has far more residential construction than London, but as you say it mostly isn't in the core. The core City of Paris is only around 2m of the 11m in the metro.

There is plenty of room for new residential and business development outside the core, no need to destroy the centre which is already very dense anyway.
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  #349  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2017, 10:29 PM
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Paris (City of) is denser than NYC 5 boroughs (55,000 per sq mile as opposed to 27,000 per sq mile). The city of Paris boundaries has about 82% the density of Manhattan over an area about 80% bigger. The central areas of the Intramuros are of course comparable to Manhattan. The densest arrondisement (11th) is as dense as the densest city board on Manhattan.

In short Intramuros Paris (without its parks) is like Manhattan (without its parks), but slightly bigger.

Last edited by muppet; Jun 20, 2017 at 5:15 PM.
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  #350  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2017, 11:44 PM
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Is the city of Paris really that comparable to Manhattan in terms of density?

my impression from several visits is that residential Manhattan is far denser than Paris

Firstly there are no major parks on the scale of central park in Paris (bois de bologne and vincennes are outside the city limits).

Second, Paris just has a larger share by area of residential than manhattan does...Manhattan contains most of the urban area's office space...whereas in Paris huge concentrations like la defense are outside of the city limits.

The daytime population of Manhattan is 3.9 million, I wonder what the same figure would be for Paris.
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  #351  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2017, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Is the city of Paris really that comparable to Manhattan in terms of density?

my impression from several visits is that residential Manhattan is far denser than Paris

Firstly there are no major parks on the scale of central park in Paris (bois de bologne and vincennes are outside the city limits).

Second, Paris just has a larger share by area of residential than manhattan does...Manhattan contains most of the urban area's office space...whereas in Paris huge concentrations like la defense are outside of the city limits.

The daytime population of Manhattan is 3.9 million, I wonder what the same figure would be for Paris.
I think you've managed to create a post with at least 4-5 distinct suppositions, each of which is either factually incorrect or where the facts don't support the point. Congrats.
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  #352  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2017, 12:26 AM
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oh really?

fact: manhattan and the city of paris have (roughly) the same population density

manhattan consists of some rowhouses, and mostly highrise apartments. paris consists of no rowhouses, some highrises, and mostly 5-6 story limestone residential apartment buildings.

one would conclude on the basis of the residential built environment that manhattan has far greater densities, yet it does not.

but:

huge areas of manhattan (compared to paris) are residential dead zones with 0 /sq mile population densities, due to parks and office space being inside the borough.

very few areas of Paris (compared to manhattan) are like this, due to parks and office space being outside the city limits, specifically la defense and other parts of the suburbs.

thus: any residential area in Manhattan is going to house more people, and display a higher density than Paris (or, say Barcelona which is even more residential than paris is)
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  #353  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2017, 1:41 AM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
Paris (City of) is denser than NYC 5 boroughs (55,000 per sq mile as opposed to 27,000 per sq mile). The city of Paris boundaries has about 82% the density of Manhattan over an area about 80% bigger. The central areas of the Intramuros are of course comparable to Manhattan. The densest arrondisement (11th) is as dense as the densest city board on Manhattan.

In short Itramuros Paris (without its parks) is like Manhattan (without its parks), but slightly bigger.
Though Paris has a significantly smaller area of extreme high density as NYC.

Around 75% of high density neighborhoods in NYC are outside Manhattan (as is true in Paris; most high density neighborhoods, including the highest density neighborhoods, aren't in the core).

NYC has around 5 million people living at extreme densities, Paris around 3-4 million, and Barcelona around 3 million. London only has a few hundred thousand at high density; I don't believe there's any western first world city besides NYC, Paris and Barcelona with more than 2 million people living at high density. I believe Madrid is #4 but nowhere close to the other three.
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  #354  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2017, 1:51 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
oh really?

fact: manhattan and the city of paris have (roughly) the same population density
Manhattan is higher density than Paris, but it's a poor comparison, because, again, most high density neighborhoods aren't in the regional cores of either city.

Both Manhattan and Paris have their lowest density neighborhoods in the most central neighborhoods, because their cores are heavily commercial, and many of the residents are seasonal or transient.

The West Bronx, Western Queens, and parts of Brooklyn have the majority of high density tracts in NYC. The highest density neighborhood in NYC, the Upper East Side, is in Manhattan, though. That's probably the highest density Western first world neighborhood.

The highest density neighborhood in Paris is in NE Paris, and is basically analogous to Western Queens (packed in working class immigrant area).

The rich neighborhoods of Paris have significantly lower density than the rich neighborhoods of NYC (compare, say the Upper West Side to Paris' 6th or 7th), so that's maybe where you get the impression that NYC has significantly higher density.
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  #355  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2017, 2:57 AM
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I suspect some of Paris' residential density difference with other European and NA cities is due to smaller housing units.
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  #356  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2017, 3:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I think you've managed to create a post with at least 4-5 distinct suppositions, each of which is either factually incorrect or where the facts don't support the point. Congrats.
He has a tendency to do that.
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  #357  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2017, 4:43 PM
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My mistake, I should have pointed out that neither are as dense as burnaby.
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  #358  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2017, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Do people honestly believe Paris will remain a museum and not change due to economics and demand?

The museum idea can only last for so long. At some point, pressure will build up for changes to zoning. The city will grow, and that pressure will force departments (zoning/buildings) to modify the rules and codes.

Its happening in London, and Paris will eventually lax its requirements.

It can be done though in a manner that emphasis preservation. Not everything can be saved though but with committees and a process in terms of landmark neighborhoods and modification to those neighborhood, there needs to be a 50/50 compromise between developers and neighborhood officials. Kinda like a checks and balances system. BUT what it shouldn't be is a one sided discussion at all times. Growth is important, and stifling it, can really hurt residents.
A lot of those old historic buildings around Paris are modern offices space that have been extensively updated to keep up with current demands and technology. Kinda like how the Empire State Building is LEED-certified despite being almost 90 years old.
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  #359  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2017, 6:26 PM
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I suspect some of Paris' residential density difference with other European and NA cities is due to smaller housing units.
except in Manhattan, where the houses are smaller than Paris.

also supporting my point, queens/bronx and even brooklyn have minimal quantities of office space, while the immediate suburbs of Paris (city) have a ton of it.
***
Paris Regional total (2006): 527 million sq. ft 49 million m²
Paris: 173 million sq. ft 16.1 million m²
Suburbs: 354 million sq. ft 32.9 million m²
32.8% of total office

New York Regional Total: ???? msf
Midtown: 223.6 msf
Midtown South: 64.4 msf
Downtown: 78.6 msf
Outer Burroughs: ?????

Westchester County: 13.8 msf
Long Island Suburbs: 40.5 msf
New Jersy Suburbs: ?????
Connecticut Suburbs: ?????
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  #360  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2017, 10:47 PM
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My mistake, I should have pointed out that neither are as dense as burnaby.
And when someone points out that you're factually incorrect (which is almost every thread you post in), you respond with another strawman argument. Your mother must be so proud.
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