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  #121  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 2:14 AM
aquablue aquablue is offline
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What a joke.

Anyway, at least we know that Bloomie would rather spend billions on connecting NJ with NY then fixing Penn or something that would be of real value to NYers.
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  #122  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
What a joke.

Anyway, at least we know that Bloomie would rather spend billions on connecting NJ with NY then fixing Penn or something that would be of real value to NYers.
Connecting NJ with NY? That would be Penn Station. The Plan to get subway service from NJ to Manhattan also would be of "real value", as it would get more cars off the roads, creating less congestion in Manhattan (as well as Penn Station itself). It also would have the added bonus of creating service to Grand Central beyond just the West Side.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...106861834.html

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Representatives for the two real-estate firms that share development rights at Moynihan Station, Vornado Realty Trust and Related Cos., didn't respond to requests for comment.
What's lost in the conversation is the massive improvement or rebuilding of Penn Station itself that was supposed to be planned by the developer's in exchange for the development rights. Even when plans to put huge towers on site were abandoned, the developers still intended to rebuild or improve the station. The development rights are now supposed to be transfered to the surrounding area (due to MSG's not moving) but there is no resolution on that, so it remains to be seen how much if any the developers will put into rebuilding Penn Station. Meanwhile, when work commences on the 15 Penn Plaza development, the passageway that connects Penn Station to the PATH terminal and other subway lines a block away will be reopened and expanded, providing better circulation both above (street level) and below to the east. There is also talk of closing 33rd street to fraffic for a block or two west.
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  #123  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 4:45 PM
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The lowest bid came under the projected cost but didn't include a big enough cushion for possible cost-overruns, a person familiar with the project said.


The contractor should be entirely on the hook for major cost overruns.
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  #124  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Connecting NJ with NY? That would be Penn Station. The Plan to get subway service from NJ to Manhattan also would be of "real value", as it would get more cars off the roads, creating less congestion in Manhattan (as well as Penn Station itself). It also would have the added bonus of creating service to Grand Central beyond just the West Side.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...106861834.html



What's lost in the conversation is the massive improvement or rebuilding of Penn Station itself that was supposed to be planned by the developer's in exchange for the development rights. Even when plans to put huge towers on site were abandoned, the developers still intended to rebuild or improve the station. The development rights are now supposed to be transfered to the surrounding area (due to MSG's not moving) but there is no resolution on that, so it remains to be seen how much if any the developers will put into rebuilding Penn Station. Meanwhile, when work commences on the 15 Penn Plaza development, the passageway that connects Penn Station to the PATH terminal and other subway lines a block away will be reopened and expanded, providing better circulation both above (street level) and below to the east. There is also talk of closing 33rd street to fraffic for a block or two west.
Actually the Subway to Secaucus would do very little to get cars off the road considering its in the middle of nowhere surrounded by Highways. The Railways there cannot be expanded , if the Gateway plan to was pushed by bloomy that would mean we could expand the Regional Rail network.... But the 7 Subway means we can't , and it will encourage people to drive to Secaucus... Seeing how the Gateway just got engineering $$$ , its likely to get built before the 7 to NJ.... The MTA has no plans to extend the 7 to NJ , nor do they want too. The PA would block them , Tieing the project up for decades... NJT would also block them , they've done it in the past. Theres also the cost 7 Billion for 3 stops , that will never fly in this region...
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  #125  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 5:41 PM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Connecting NJ with NY? That would be Penn Station. The Plan to get subway service from NJ to Manhattan also would be of "real value", as it would get more cars off the roads, creating less congestion in Manhattan (as well as Penn Station itself). It also would have the added bonus of creating service to Grand Central beyond just the West Side.
Is there any information on how many passengers the 7-Secaucus connection might be expected to handle? The stations at Grand Central and Times Square already have an enormous amount of traffic at rush, I'm curious as to how much more the MTA thinks they can take without rebuilding / adding platforms and track.
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  #126  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 5:54 PM
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Actually the Subway to Secaucus would do very little to get cars off the road considering its in the middle of nowhere surrounded by Highways. The Railways there cannot be expanded , if the Gateway plan to was pushed by bloomy that would mean we could expand the Regional Rail network.... But the 7 Subway means we can't , and it will encourage people to drive to Secaucus... Seeing how the Gateway just got engineering $$$ , its likely to get built before the 7 to NJ.... The MTA has no plans to extend the 7 to NJ , nor do they want too. The PA would block them , Tieing the project up for decades... NJT would also block them , they've done it in the past. Theres also the cost 7 Billion for 3 stops , that will never fly in this region...
I don't see any reason PA to want to block the project. The PA will be totally out of PATH expansion capacity without enormously expensive construction after the last round of signal upgrades are done in 2016 and they have WAY too many other projects that need funds.

NJT might be pinning it's hopes on Gateway but Christie obviously wants to keep his options open since a 7 connection would serve the area of Midtown around GCT and Gateway would not.
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  #127  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 8:01 PM
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I don't see any reason PA to want to block the project. The PA will be totally out of PATH expansion capacity without enormously expensive construction after the last round of signal upgrades are done in 2016 and they have WAY too many other projects that need funds.

NJT might be pinning it's hopes on Gateway but Christie obviously wants to keep his options open since a 7 connection would serve the area of Midtown around GCT and Gateway would not.
The 7 could be connected to Penn from the new 11th ave station. That might be a more efficient use of funds.

Actually, I would like to see the 7 to NJ, but not to the detriment of a proper HSR connection into NYC.
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  #128  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 8:13 PM
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I don't see any reason PA to want to block the project. The PA will be totally out of PATH expansion capacity without enormously expensive construction after the last round of signal upgrades are done in 2016 and they have WAY too many other projects that need funds.

NJT might be pinning it's hopes on Gateway but Christie obviously wants to keep his options open since a 7 connection would serve the area of Midtown around GCT and Gateway would not.
The PA controls all the crossings along the Hudson , they fund things aswell....if it will affect the PATH they will block it. They have in the past , theres also the rules and tax region that will make it hard for them to extend the 7 into NJ. Theres really no room for the 7 at Secaucus , they recent suggested the 7 be extended to Hoboken where NJT has capacity....the PA would probably not block that due to the extra ridership it would receive. Its also cheaper to go to Hoboken. As for Christie , hes all over the map , most New Jerseyites are against any tunnel into NY , they would rather see the $$$ in investing in Urban / Suburban Jersey.... Both the PATH and Flushing line are nearing Capacity , so building the Full Gateway Project will take pressure off both lines. The PA is milked for pet projects on both sides of the hudson , so it doesn't matter how many projects it has. The Gateway Phase 2 is to go to Grand Central , which would happen in the mid 2020s , if Phase 1 starts in the next 2 years....which seems likely...
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  #129  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 8:56 PM
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The PA controls all the crossings along the Hudson , they fund things aswell....if it will affect the PATH they will block it. They have in the past , theres also the rules and tax region that will make it hard for them to extend the 7 into NJ. Theres really no room for the 7 at Secaucus , they recent suggested the 7 be extended to Hoboken where NJT has capacity....the PA would probably not block that due to the extra ridership it would receive. Its also cheaper to go to Hoboken. As for Christie , hes all over the map , most New Jerseyites are against any tunnel into NY , they would rather see the $$$ in investing in Urban / Suburban Jersey.... Both the PATH and Flushing line are nearing Capacity , so building the Full Gateway Project will take pressure off both lines. The PA is milked for pet projects on both sides of the hudson , so it doesn't matter how many projects it has. The Gateway Phase 2 is to go to Grand Central , which would happen in the mid 2020s , if Phase 1 starts in the next 2 years....which seems likely...
Extend the 7 into Penn. Do the Gateway project.
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  #130  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
The 7 could be connected to Penn from the new 11th ave station. That might be a more efficient use of funds.

Actually, I would like to see the 7 to NJ, but not to the detriment of a proper HSR connection into NYC.
IIRC, part of Gateway calls for extending the 7 to Penn instead of NJ.
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  #131  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 9:07 PM
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IIRC, part of Gateway calls for extending the 7 to Penn instead of NJ.
That would be a good option. Link Penn & GCT.

The 7 to NJ is a waste of money then. The Gateway will allow for HSR on the NEC as well as benefit NJT. The 7 is just for NJ commuters and won't benefit as many people. Instead of the 7 to NJ, the mayor should link the LIRR with lower Manhattan.
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  #132  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 9:07 PM
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The PA controls all the crossings along the Hudson , they fund things aswell....if it will affect the PATH they will block it. They have in the past , theres also the rules and tax region that will make it hard for them to extend the 7 into NJ. Theres really no room for the 7 at Secaucus , they recent suggested the 7 be extended to Hoboken where NJT has capacity....the PA would probably not block that due to the extra ridership it would receive. Its also cheaper to go to Hoboken. As for Christie , hes all over the map , most New Jerseyites are against any tunnel into NY , they would rather see the $$$ in investing in Urban / Suburban Jersey.... Both the PATH and Flushing line are nearing Capacity , so building the Full Gateway Project will take pressure off both lines. The PA is milked for pet projects on both sides of the hudson , so it doesn't matter how many projects it has. The Gateway Phase 2 is to go to Grand Central , which would happen in the mid 2020s , if Phase 1 starts in the next 2 years....which seems likely...
Both NJ and NY see an MTA connection across the Hudson as beneficial (be it Secaucus or Hoboken). The PA would be hard pressed to obstruct a project that would enjoy favorable backing from both states, particularly if the PA itself isn't putting up the cash.

The Port Authority already has a ton of projects to do and nowhere near the money to do them all. A multi-billion dollar expansion of PATH is certainly not in the cards anytime soon.

The probability that Gateway Phase 1 will be completed in 2020 as originally suggested is remote to say the least.
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  #133  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2012, 10:49 PM
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Both NJ and NY see an MTA connection across the Hudson as beneficial (be it Secaucus or Hoboken). The PA would be hard pressed to obstruct a project that would enjoy favorable backing from both states, particularly if the PA itself isn't putting up the cash.

The Port Authority already has a ton of projects to do and nowhere near the money to do them all. A multi-billion dollar expansion of PATH is certainly not in the cards anytime soon.

The probability that Gateway Phase 1 will be completed in 2020 as originally suggested is remote to say the least.
Where does it say both NJ and NY , its less on the NY side , and its divided on the NJ side. Most New Jerseyites are against building lines into the city , they see it as taking jobs from Jersey....and they rather see $$ invested in Urban Jersey. Which is why you see support for Northern Branch LRT and Glassboro LRT , but not much for any line feeding NY. Although anything feeding Hoboken is alright. The PA only has one project and that's the WTC project , they keep saying they'll upgrade the Bridges , tunnels and PATH , but nothing is happening.... They won't even hand over there documents to prove there constructing something... NJT would object to anything that puts pressure on the network , so there opposed to the Secaucus option , they would be in support for Hoboken which is under capacity on both the PATH and NJT. The Gateway Project would benefit a larger section of this region and not just NJ , CT and NY could expand there networks.. The 7 Project cannot do that and encourages driving with the Secaucus option. Politicians in this region have a history of talking up a storm and doing nothing. Transit advocates , Fanners and Employees like me often know whats going to happen , and the facts here are the in its current setup it will be blocked.
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  #134  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2012, 12:58 AM
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Where does it say both NJ and NY , its less on the NY side , and its divided on the NJ side. Most New Jerseyites are against building lines into the city , they see it as taking jobs from Jersey....and they rather see $$ invested in Urban Jersey. Which is why you see support for Northern Branch LRT and Glassboro LRT , but not much for any line feeding NY. Although anything feeding Hoboken is alright. The PA only has one project and that's the WTC project , they keep saying they'll upgrade the Bridges , tunnels and PATH , but nothing is happening.... They won't even hand over there documents to prove there constructing something... NJT would object to anything that puts pressure on the network , so there opposed to the Secaucus option , they would be in support for Hoboken which is under capacity on both the PATH and NJT. The Gateway Project would benefit a larger section of this region and not just NJ , CT and NY could expand there networks.. The 7 Project cannot do that and encourages driving with the Secaucus option. Politicians in this region have a history of talking up a storm and doing nothing. Transit advocates , Fanners and Employees like me often know whats going to happen , and the facts here are the in its current setup it will be blocked.
I'm happy to hear that. It would be ideal to do both projects, but if only one can be done, I think the gateway project is the more prudent approach to the issue.
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  #135  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2012, 1:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
Where does it say both NJ and NY , its less on the NY side , and its divided on the NJ side. Most New Jerseyites are against building lines into the city , they see it as taking jobs from Jersey....and they rather see $$ invested in Urban Jersey. Which is why you see support for Northern Branch LRT and Glassboro LRT , but not much for any line feeding NY. Although anything feeding Hoboken is alright. The PA only has one project and that's the WTC project , they keep saying they'll upgrade the Bridges , tunnels and PATH , but nothing is happening.... They won't even hand over there documents to prove there constructing something... NJT would object to anything that puts pressure on the network , so there opposed to the Secaucus option , they would be in support for Hoboken which is under capacity on both the PATH and NJT. The Gateway Project would benefit a larger section of this region and not just NJ , CT and NY could expand there networks.. The 7 Project cannot do that and encourages driving with the Secaucus option. Politicians in this region have a history of talking up a storm and doing nothing. Transit advocates , Fanners and Employees like me often know whats going to happen , and the facts here are the in its current setup it will be blocked.
The MTA would be footing most of the bill (amount variable due to likely federal funding), Christie indicated that NJ would participate financially what that would look like is TBD. As far as limiting NJ-NY transit expansion to make NJ somehow more attractive to corporations...lol. The MTA has already invested billions in the ESA and not corporate business parks on Long Island for a reason. Businesses want to operate in NYC. Subway service to either Secaucus (which is horridly underused for how big it is) or Hoboken (where NJT has room to grow) would be making better use of NJT, not taking away from it.

The current PA capital plan includes about $5.5B in projects. Their wish list swells that to $25ish billion. None of which includes PATH expansion (actual construction) which already operates at capacity during rush and is increasingly shouldering more passengers due to toll increases. The signal project will up capacity some but it isn't going to accommodate another 10 years of growth.

I think at least parts of Gateway are going to happen and should but it's going to take a lot longer than proposed.
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  #136  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2012, 10:08 PM
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The MTA would be footing most of the bill (amount variable due to likely federal funding), Christie indicated that NJ would participate financially what that would look like is TBD. As far as limiting NJ-NY transit expansion to make NJ somehow more attractive to corporations...lol. The MTA has already invested billions in the ESA and not corporate business parks on Long Island for a reason. Businesses want to operate in NYC. Subway service to either Secaucus (which is horridly underused for how big it is) or Hoboken (where NJT has room to grow) would be making better use of NJT, not taking away from it.

The current PA capital plan includes about $5.5B in projects. Their wish list swells that to $25ish billion. None of which includes PATH expansion (actual construction) which already operates at capacity during rush and is increasingly shouldering more passengers due to toll increases. The signal project will up capacity some but it isn't going to accommodate another 10 years of growth.

I think at least parts of Gateway are going to happen and should but it's going to take a lot longer than proposed.
The MTA plans on extending service into Penn station via the Metro North lines after the ESA is completed and would need some more space opened up via the Gateway Project. lets look at the cost of the expansions... 8.7 Billion for 5 mile extension of the 7 line into NJ with maybe only 2 stations vs the 13-16 Billion Gateway Project which includes all the lines that would be allowed to be restored on the NJ side and added capacity and service on the NY side. The Gateway Project would allow for 9 lines to be restored on the NJ side with 64 stations.... The 7 Extension would not allow for this and it would delay this... Secaucus was overbuilt and badly , but there is also no room for Expansion in terms of Capacity , NJT can't turn around NEC trains on the NEC. No room for a loop track ,or Yard , so they have to go and use the Sunnyside Yard in Queens.... Even if you build a Subway to Secaucus it won't solve anything...it would make things worse... Ridership would only be 50-70,000 from what i'm hearing , for that much $$$ its better to build something on a Regional Scale. The Gateway Project and Regional Rail Expansions would service 450-500,000 Daily , including Amtrak expansions into PA and increased trains. Half of the Prep work for the Gateway is done already , making Major construction easier to do...

As for the PA , its corrupt , most of the $$$ pours into the WTC , not the PA projects its been audited recently.... The PATH rush hr is pretty short , at least in terms of crowds , only 30 trains are wall to wall.... which occurs from 5.30pm to 6.45pm...the rush hr starts on the PATH system between 4pm to 7pm.... The system can handle more then they let on , the system can handle more , the only problems are some of the station sizes... But the trains can safely handle the extra load. The Signal upgrade will allow for more trains which will reduce some of the station congestion and increase capacity up 350,000 if I recall correctly.

NJ and Urban Jersey are in a constant battle over NY stealing business and treating us badly , thus most New Jerseyites are against lines feeding into NY. Operating in NY is expensive so over the past 10 years Urban Jersey has sucked 50,000 jobs from NYC....were starting to win , and most New Jerseyites are realizing the value of investing in our Urban areas....
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  #137  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2012, 10:19 PM
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I'm happy to hear that. It would be ideal to do both projects, but if only one can be done, I think the gateway project is the more prudent approach to the issue.
Yea , the 7 Extension makes no sense in the commuting sense. If you look at a map , Penn station has access to the 1,2,3 and A,C,E , and the Next stop north is 42nd Street. The Extension into NJ would add an estimated 20-30mins onto the journey ,the top speed on the subway is 65mph which is rarely hit , while Regional Rail under the Hudson hits 90mph.... Most people who take the train into Penn work around Penn station and Times SQ. Most Midtown bound NJ commuters use the bus , which is faster then the train and drops you off at 42nd street. The Core of Office Workers works around 42nd street to 63rd street which is along the N , Q , R , E , 4 , 5 & 6 lines. The 7 services nothing that big in terms of employment... The Gateway would also allow for Regional and Intercity rail expansions in NJ , PA , NY , CT and as far as DE , the 7 would not. Most Rail / Transit advocates while not against the extension see no value or need for it over the Gateway , the cost ratio is weaker on the 7 then Gateway. These plans like the 7 Extension and other Political crap come up every 5-10 years and go nowhere....due to the Politics of this region....
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  #138  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2012, 10:19 PM
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The MTA plans on extending service into Penn station via the Metro North lines after the ESA is completed and would need some more space opened up via the Gateway Project. lets look at the cost of the expansions... 8.7 Billion for 5 mile extension of the 7 line into NJ with maybe only 2 stations vs the 13-16 Billion Gateway Project which includes all the lines that would be allowed to be restored on the NJ side and added capacity and service on the NY side. The Gateway Project would allow for 9 lines to be restored on the NJ side with 64 stations.... The 7 Extension would not allow for this and it would delay this... Secaucus was overbuilt and badly , but there is also no room for Expansion in terms of Capacity , NJT can't turn around NEC trains on the NEC. No room for a loop track ,or Yard , so they have to go and use the Sunnyside Yard in Queens.... Even if you build a Subway to Secaucus it won't solve anything...it would make things worse... Ridership would only be 50-70,000 from what i'm hearing , for that much $$$ its better to build something on a Regional Scale. The Gateway Project and Regional Rail Expansions would service 450-500,000 Daily , including Amtrak expansions into PA and increased trains. Half of the Prep work for the Gateway is done already , making Major construction easier to do...

As for the PA , its corrupt , most of the $$$ pours into the WTC , not the PA projects its been audited recently.... The PATH rush hr is pretty short , at least in terms of crowds , only 30 trains are wall to wall.... which occurs from 5.30pm to 6.45pm...the rush hr starts on the PATH system between 4pm to 7pm.... The system can handle more then they let on , the system can handle more , the only problems are some of the station sizes... But the trains can safely handle the extra load. The Signal upgrade will allow for more trains which will reduce some of the station congestion and increase capacity up 350,000 if I recall correctly.

NJ and Urban Jersey are in a constant battle over NY stealing business and treating us badly , thus most New Jerseyites are against lines feeding into NY. Operating in NY is expensive so over the past 10 years Urban Jersey has sucked 50,000 jobs from NYC....were starting to win , and most New Jerseyites are realizing the value of investing in our Urban areas....
That's good, NJ's urban areas are wasted potential and need investment. However, if NY were to decline in global appeal and lose jobs, so would you given you are all intertwined. So I wouldn't think in these state vs state mentality, it is very negative and can only hurt the entire region in the long run. Just my two cents.
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  #139  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2012, 10:25 PM
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That's good, NJ's urban areas are wasted potential and need investment. However, if NY were to decline in global appeal and lose jobs, so would you given you are all intertwined. So I wouldn't think in these state vs state mentality, it is very negative and can only hurt the entire region in the long run. Just my two cents.
The Battle lines have already been drawn...and breached. The NYPD is now spying on NJ college Campuses... While I don't want NYC to loose power on the Global scene it needs to share some of the jobs.... Outside of NYC , its every city for itself , fighting like wild animals trying to lure any expanding corporate jobs. Its made this regions economy very weak , instead of powerful. Every city should have a healthy economy , with NYC having the powerhouse that drives the other cities. Instead NYC controls and hogs everything and you have cities like Newark , Elizabeth and Yonkers struggling to get by.
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  #140  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2012, 10:37 PM
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What needs to happen is more density in the outer suburbs of the city and increased transit . NYC also needs to develop as well, since the outer boroughs face the same problems the New Jersey region face. This would actually help the city in a global economic standpoint because it would have many financial districts to fall back on. But this can only work if the metro area continues to experience high growth. Manhattan is great and all,but it doesn't need to be the only powerhouse in Greater New York. There is great potential to make the whole region in that fashion.
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