NEW YORK | Port Authority Bus Terminal Replacement

[k1052]

Originally Posted by antinimby

^ Numbers don't sound right. $6.66B for 2.3MSF of just air rights?

No, the story is inaccurate. The development rights probably aren't worth more than $1.5-2B. The PA will have to pay the other $8B minimum (current pricing) the plans put forward will cost.

[a very long weekend]

2.2 million square feet is just a bit less than 1 wtc. the state/city could easily let it go higher to help fund, so that you could have a massive supertall with office plates with even more height on a residential tower. still, to get that sort of money out of the site, they'd have to build it themselves and sell at record prices.

[C.]

Originally Posted by k1052

No, the story is inaccurate. The development rights probably aren't worth more than $1.5-2B. The PA will have to pay the other $8B minimum (current pricing) the plans put forward will cost.

You're right. The story is inaccurate on the air rights. First 2.2 million is too low.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/zone/map8d.pdf
The zoning on the site is C6-7, which allows a FAR of 15 for commercial space. A 20% bonus in FAR is allowed if a public plaza is included.

According to this link (http://www.panynj.gov/about/pdf/prop...-authority.pdf) the PABT is 5.39 acres.

43,560 x 5.39 x 15 = 3,521,826. The number grows to 5,071,429 if the development can take advantage of the public plaza bonus. However, this may be a moot point since the Port Authority can preempt local zoning.

The WTC Site is zoned for commercial uses under the New York City
Zoning Resolution (zoning classifications C6-4, C5-3). However, the
WTC Site is exempt from zoning requirements because property owned,
controlled or operated by the Port Authority is not subject to the
jurisdiction of the city or state of New York.

http://www.renewnyc.com/content/pdfs...d_09-16-03.pdf

But the development rights over the old PABT is only part of the story. It looks like the PA has learned from the Calatrava fiasco as participants in the international design competition are required to consider commercial or residential development above the new terminal, as well as redevelopment of the existing terminal.

Participants in the competition are required to:
Provide a cost estimate for the new terminal
Provide an estimate of the annual operating cost of the new terminal
Provide an estimate of the revenue that can be generated from the air rights, above the new terminal, as well as the revenue that can be generated from the redevelopment of the own site.
Lastly, participants are ENCOURAGED to select a different site if the one west of 9th Avenue isn't "optimal."

It's a pity the media isn't covering this news accurately as it has BIG implications for the City of New York.

[BBMW]

A while back, I stated that they should really just leave this alone. I've now changed my mind, mainly because I've joined this project with another one, and came up with something that would be a huge improvement.

A big question is, why are we allowing thousands of diesel buses to come into Manhattan every day. This is very stupid from a lot of angles. Basically, the PABT should be demolished. No new bus terminal should be built in Manhatttan. What I would do is the following:

I'd build a new bus terminal in NJ. Specifically I'd put in in the triangle formed by the NJ Turnpike Eastern Spur, Rt 495, and Rt 3. The vast majority of the buses coming into the PABT come along these routes, so this is a very logical place for them to stop. There is some commercial property here (a Home Depot, a chain hotel, and a large empty store/warehouse.) The empty property would make up the bulk of the new facility, the other two properties could be bought out as necessary.

To get the bus passengers into Manhattan from this terminal, I'd have the PA and the MTA work together to build an extension to the #7 subway line under the Hudson to this terminal. This would be a big project in and of itself, but there's nothing non-feasible about it. Dealing with the political and financial issues would be the biggest hurtle.

Obviously this is a multibillion dollar project. But there are strong financing sources here also. The PABT and all it's approaches can be demolished and the land sold off. I did the math, and that's something like nine acres of land. That may be worth a billion dollars or more right there. In addition, the PA could roof over a lot of the Lincoln Tunnel approaches, and probably generate 4-5 additional developable acres. So maybe another half billion or more there. I would also disallow any property tax abatements on anything built on these sites. Once the land is sold off, it and anything built on it would be subject to all the normal city property taxes. That income could be use to float a lot of bonds. Finally, I'd push for federal money to help with this. Just getting all those buses off the road sooner would be a huge environmental benefit. If both sets of senators and all the area congresscritters pushed for this, it could get done.

[C.]

Originally Posted by BBMW

A while back, I stated that they should really just leave this alone. I've now changed my mind, mainly because I've joined this project with another one, and came up with something that would be a huge improvement.

A big question is, why are we allowing thousands of diesel buses to come into Manhattan every day. This is very stupid from a lot of angles. Basically, the PABT should be demolished. No new bus terminal should be built in Manhatttan. What I would do is the following:

I'd build a new bus terminal in NJ. Specifically I'd put in in the triangle formed by the NJ Turnpike Eastern Spur, Rt 495, and Rt 3. The vast majority of the buses coming into the PABT come along these routes, so this is a very logical place for them to stop. There is some commercial property here (a Home Depot, a chain hotel, and a large empty store/warehouse.) The empty property would make up the bulk of the new facility, the other two properties could be bought out as necessary.

To get the bus passengers into Manhattan from this terminal, I'd have the PA and the MTA work together to build an extension to the #7 subway line under the Hudson to this terminal. This would be a big project in and of itself, but there's nothing non-feasible about it. Dealing with the political and financial issues would be the biggest hurtle.

Obviously this is a multibillion dollar project. But there are strong financing sources here also. The PABT and all it's approaches can be demolished and the land sold off. I did the math, and that's something like nine acres of land. That may be worth a billion dollars or more right there. In addition, the PA could roof over a lot of the Lincoln Tunnel approaches, and probably generate 4-5 additional developable acres. So maybe another half billion or more there. I would also disallow any property tax abatements on anything built on these sites. Once the land is sold off, it and anything built on it would be subject to all the normal city property taxes. That income could be use to float a lot of bonds. Finally, I'd push for federal money to help with this. Just getting all those buses off the road sooner would be a huge environmental benefit. If both sets of senators and all the area congresscritters pushed for this, it could get done.

Well said!! I could not agree more on all fronts. It sounds like the Port Authority is open to considering a NJ location for the bus terminal as applicants to the international design competition are "encouraged" to look at other sites for a new bus terminal if the proposed location west of 9th street isn't "optimal." New Jersey makes a lot of sense from a financial point of view. Locating the new Port Authority Bus Terminal at Secaucus makes a lot of sense, as the port Authority already owns a large amount of land around the same area you described (NJ Turnpike, Rt 495, and Rt 3), currently known as the North Bergen Park N Ride.

Waldo Yards is an outside chance, but would allow a direct connection to the PATH train and the NJ Turnpike. Journal Square, which is an underused bus terminal owned by the Port Authority, may see a greater regional role.

Bloomberg hoped to get the 7 line extension to Secaucus before leaving office. He was able to get this study, which details plans for a large bus terminal at Secaucus Junction: http://www.nycedc.com/sites/default/...April_2013.pdf

[BBMW]

^
For the purposes of replacing the PABT, I don't think Secaucus junction makes nearly as much sense as the location I proposed. It might make sense on it's own, to tie into the NJT train lines. In point of fact, it could make sense to extend the line from my location to SJ, and it might be possible to do it on the surface, which would be cheaper.

I own a property near Journal square. I don't think that bus terminal makes sense as a replacement for the PABT. It has no highway access. It's basically a nexus for the local Hudson County transit buses to feed into the PATH. What I like about my location is that it ties so nicely into the main highways feeding the Lincoln Tunnel. If the idea is to keep the buses out of the Tunnel, that's what's necessary.

Edit: I just scouted another possible NJ location for the PABT relocation, and it's kind of interesting. This would be on the grounds of the Meadowlands Sports Complex. It would replace the stillborn Xanadu, and possible the unused Izod Center. This puts it right on the western spur of the NJ Turnpike and also right on Rt 3. The 7 train extension would be longer, over 5 miles, but some of that could possibly be above ground. This plan would probably get a lot of support from football fans in NYC.

[jbermingham123]

Originally Posted by antinimby

^ Numbers don't sound right. $6.66B for 2.3MSF of just air rights?

welcome to the united states

[k1052]

Originally Posted by BBMW

^
For the purposes of replacing the PABT, I don't think Secaucus junction makes nearly as much sense as the location I proposed. It might make sense on it's own, to tie into the NJT train lines. In point of fact, it could make sense to extend the line from my location to SJ, and it might be possible to do it on the surface, which would be cheaper.

I own a property near Journal square. I don't think that bus terminal makes sense as a replacement for the PABT. It has no highway access. It's basically a nexus for the local Hudson County transit buses to feed into the PATH. What I like about my location is that it ties so nicely into the main highways feeding the Lincoln Tunnel. If the idea is to keep the buses out of the Tunnel, that's what's necessary.

Edit: I just scouted another possible NJ location for the PABT relocation, and it's kind of interesting. This would be on the grounds of the Meadowlands Sports Complex. It would replace the stillborn Xanadu, and possible the unused Izod Center. This puts it right on the western spur of the NJ Turnpike and also right on Rt 3. The 7 train extension would be longer, over 5 miles, but some of that could possibly be above ground. This plan would probably get a lot of support from football fans in NYC.

Uh Xanadu to being rebuilt as "American Dream" by Triple Five as we speak.

[Cynicism]

.

[a very long weekend]

damn, 5,071,429 square feet is a much much more than the burj khalifa. still, there's no building site on earth that could bring in 3b. it'd be a mega-project with many moving parts, but maybe them pulling 2-3b out of this site is totally possible.

[C.]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

damn, 5,071,429 square feet is a much much more than the burj khalifa. still, there's no building site on earth that could bring in 3b. it'd be a mega-project with many moving parts, but maybe them pulling 2-3b out of this site is totally possible.

Who said it has to be all in 1 tower?

The PABT takes up a couple city blocks. Demolishihg the old structure between 8th and 9th avenues and you could have another mega development like Hudson Yards.

[BBMW]

They're all we got. The MTA just finished a extension on the same line. So they could get it done if pushed. And the crumbling tunnels you want to replace are Amtrack's property. They're a separate issue.

I'm sorry but getting 8000 buses a day out of the Lincoln Tunnel, and off the west side of Manhattan should be a major priority. Not to mention the huge benefits of repurposing the huge amount of land the PABT soaks up on the west side. Except for the front of it, the entire rest of the area is a dead zone because of it. It has to go.

Originally Posted by Cynicism

Stopped reading there.

You want two incompetent agencies working together to build this hypothetical train tunnel under the Hudson? There are two crumbling tunnels nearby that haven't even got a replacement yet. Build those tunnels to Penn first and then we can start talking about the subway in 2658.

[BBMW]

The land that proposal would be freeing up is actually several separate sites, and could contain a number of different projects.

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

damn, 5,071,429 square feet is a much much more than the burj khalifa. still, there's no building site on earth that could bring in 3b. it'd be a mega-project with many moving parts, but maybe them pulling 2-3b out of this site is totally possible.

[antinimby]

^ Send your thoughts and ideas to the PA or submit it through their design competition.

[JSsocal]

I'm of the opposite opinion actually, if you could build a centralized garage facility for all those busses at the terminal (a la what silverstein proposed a couple years ago) then keeping the terminal in manhattan would be ideal. When you remove the empty return trip busses from the equation, then why would you want to replace high occupancy busses with single occupancy cars from NJ in the Lincoln Tunnel?

[a very long weekend]

Originally Posted by CIA

Who said it has to be all in 1 tower?

The PABT takes up a couple city blocks. Demolishihg the old structure between 8th and 9th avenues and you could have another mega development like Hudson Yards.

true enough. i guess i was thinking that it'd be one tower with midrise or plaza. you're right though that it's not too likely.

[BBMW]

I don't care what, if anything replaces the buses in the tunnel. I just see no good reasons for those buses to come into Manhattan in the first place. Put the terminal where the bus lines come together, then get the passengers in on a higher density, electrically powered system (the subway being a prime example.)

And why waste extremely valuable Manhattan real estate to house buses?

Originally Posted by JSsocal

I'm of the opposite opinion actually, if you could build a centralized garage facility for all those busses at the terminal (a la what silverstein proposed a couple years ago) then keeping the terminal in manhattan would be ideal. When you remove the empty return trip busses from the equation, then why would you want to replace high occupancy busses with single occupancy cars from NJ in the Lincoln Tunnel?

[BBMW]

They have a fill in the form "Contact Us" section on the redevelopment plan webside. I sent them as much as I could fit. I'm not holding my breath on hearing back from them. I also find it a little unlikely that I'm the first person to think of this. There have been other plans to push the 7 train out to NJ. Bloomberg was pushing one. I can't be the first one to link this up with the PABT redevelopment.

Originally Posted by antinimby

^ Send your thoughts and ideas to the PA or submit it through their design competition.

[Astorian]

Originally Posted by BBMW

A while back, I stated that they should really just leave this alone. I've now changed my mind, mainly because I've joined this project with another one, and came up with something that would be a huge improvement.

A big question is, why are we allowing thousands of diesel buses to come into Manhattan every day. This is very stupid from a lot of angles. Basically, the PABT should be demolished. No new bus terminal should be built in Manhatttan. What I would do is the following:

I'd build a new bus terminal in NJ. Specifically I'd put in in the triangle formed by the NJ Turnpike Eastern Spur, Rt 495, and Rt 3. The vast majority of the buses coming into the PABT come along these routes, so this is a very logical place for them to stop. There is some commercial property here (a Home Depot, a chain hotel, and a large empty store/warehouse.) The empty property would make up the bulk of the new facility, the other two properties could be bought out as necessary.

To get the bus passengers into Manhattan from this terminal, I'd have the PA and the MTA work together to build an extension to the #7 subway line under the Hudson to this terminal. This would be a big project in and of itself, but there's nothing non-feasible about it. Dealing with the political and financial issues would be the biggest hurtle.

Obviously this is a multibillion dollar project. But there are strong financing sources here also. The PABT and all it's approaches can be demolished and the land sold off. I did the math, and that's something like nine acres of land. That may be worth a billion dollars or more right there. In addition, the PA could roof over a lot of the Lincoln Tunnel approaches, and probably generate 4-5 additional developable acres. So maybe another half billion or more there. I would also disallow any property tax abatements on anything built on these sites. Once the land is sold off, it and anything built on it would be subject to all the normal city property taxes. That income could be use to float a lot of bonds. Finally, I'd push for federal money to help with this. Just getting all those buses off the road sooner would be a huge environmental benefit. If both sets of senators and all the area congresscritters pushed for this, it could get done.

You're reasoning for moving the PA out to NJ is because diesel buses are coming into Manhattan? Talk about missing the forest for the trees. Those thousands of diesel buses keep tens of thousands cars off the road and out of Manhattan. If you remove those buses from the Lincoln Tunnel and all you're going to do is increase capacity for cars to go into Manhattan. As highway expansion has shown, every time you increase capacity for cars, you're going to get even more traffic and congestion. Thats even worse than thousands of diesel buses coming into Manhattan, as the last thing Manhattan needs is more car traffic.

Not only that, but you're making commutes a lot more inconvenient for any NJ commuter that takes the bus. You're forcing at least one transfer and double fare for everyone, which is even more inconvenient and expensive for majority of commuters that walk to their jobs from the terminal.

If congestion and pollution are your main concern, you should be advocating for phasing out diesel commuter buses in favor of electric hybrid ones along with the introduction of a congestion tolling in Manhattan. That way you free space for even more busses in the Lincoln tunnel and remove cars from Manhattan streets.

Like commuter train stations, commuter bus stations work best when they are close to their city's CBD. Putting it out in NJ is ridiculous and short sighted. It may be more expensive but the only reasonable option is to rebuild the terminal where it is now. The sale of the terminal's air rights should help to mitigate costs.

[BBMW]

So cork the tunnel with buses to keep the cars out? That's the most asinine think I've ever heard. After the PABT was moved out of NYC and IF that became a problem, it could easily be solved by upping the prime time inbound car toll until the car traffic dropped off. Also car traffic is likely more controlled by the cost and lack of parking in Manhattan. In either case you'd have the best of both words (greatly reduced bus traffic into the city, and controlled car traffic.)

Originally Posted by Astorian

You're reasoning for moving the PA out to NJ is because diesel buses are coming into Manhattan? Talk about missing the forest for the trees. Those thousands of diesel buses keep tens of thousands cars off the road and out of Manhattan. If you remove those buses from the Lincoln Tunnel and all you're going to do is increase capacity for cars to go into Manhattan. As highway expansion has shown, every time you increase capacity for cars, you're going to get even more traffic and congestion. Thats even worse than thousands of diesel buses coming into Manhattan, as the last thing Manhattan needs is more car traffic.

Cost of doing business. You want to come into Manhattan to work, you're going to have to pay for it. If not, find a lower paying job in NJ.

Not only that, but you're making commutes a lot more inconvenient for any NJ commuter that takes the bus. You're forcing at least one transfer and double fare for everyone, which is even more inconvenient and expensive for majority of commuters that walk to their jobs from the terminal.

Hybrid buses might be slightly more efficient, but generate no less congestion. The best this is to just keep the damn thing out of Manhattan entirely.

If congestion and pollution are your main concern, you should be advocating for phasing out diesel commuter buses in favor of electric hybrid ones along with the introduction of a congestion tolling in Manhattan. That way you free space for even more busses in the Lincoln tunnel and remove cars from Manhattan streets.

Complete idiotic nonsense. In point of fact, if NJ wants to use NYC as an employment center for it's residents, it should invest in more commuter rail lines, instead of taking the cheap way out, and shoving hordes of buses down NYC's throat. But if they insist on using buses, keep them on their side of the river.

This also doesn't address the momentous waste of space that the PABT takes up. A big part of the reasoning of my proposal is to free this this space for more productive uses. The subway line is underground. So when finished, it will have essentially zero footprint. And the land to house the actual bus terminal is much cheaper and easier to come by in Jersey.

Like commuter train stations, commuter bus stations work best when they are close to their city's CBD. Putting it out in NJ is ridiculous and short sighted. It may be more expensive but the only reasonable option is to rebuild the terminal where it is now. The sale of the terminal's air rights should help to mitigate costs.