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  #1061  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2016, 7:19 AM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
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Yes, that what I understood..............Guelph will not get a HSR station.

Win/Lon/Kit/Tor should be priority #1. It will be heavily used and also the roads in Southern Ontario are becoming dangerously overloaded. Montreal is an obvious need but that will have to be big federal money. Ontario will not feel like paying for 90% of the cost to benefit Quebec as much as it does Ontario.
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  #1062  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2016, 9:16 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Yes, that what I understood..............Guelph will not get a HSR station.

Win/Lon/Kit/Tor should be priority #1. It will be heavily used and also the roads in Southern Ontario are becoming dangerously overloaded. Montreal is an obvious need but that will have to be big federal money. Ontario will not feel like paying for 90% of the cost to benefit Quebec as much as it does Ontario.
I could see ON footing the bill for Windsor to Ottawa. Beyond that, Quebec would likely do it. Chances are, the link between Ottawa and Montreal would be the province which the line is in pays for that part.
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  #1063  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2016, 6:19 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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I could see ON footing the bill for Windsor to Ottawa. Beyond that, Quebec would likely do it. Chances are, the link between Ottawa and Montreal would be the province which the line is in pays for that part.
A section from Ottawa to Montreal would be best shared 50-50. The line is about 180 km, of which about 65 km is in Quebec and 115 km is in Ontario. However, the Ontario section is mostly flat through farmland and the Quebec section involves more urban areas and a major river crossing.
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  #1064  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 6:18 PM
GreatTallNorth2 GreatTallNorth2 is offline
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The heat is on to get a high-speed rail proposal for Southwestern Ontario to the province by fall (London Free Press)



A train zooming from Toronto’s Pearson Airport to London’s airport in just more than an hour.

Hop on a bus, and you’re downtown within minutes, ready to start your high-tech job.

It’s all a bit of a pipe dream at the moment, but the marriage of London’s rapid transit plan and a high-speed rail system for Southwestern Ontario that’s being pushed by the province is a little closer to reality.

“This will be huge. It will transform Southwestern Ontario,” said Coun. Maureen Cassidy. “We see high-speed rail as transforming London and other municipalities in Southwestern Ontario.”

Former federal transport minister David Collenette, Ontario’s point person on a high-speed rail system from Toronto to Windsor, recently made the rounds in Kitchener-Waterloo, London and Windsor, eager to get a plan for a report due in October.

For decades, high-speed rail has been talked about for Southwestern Ontario but only in the past year has it become politically active, with the province committed to spend tens of billions of dollars on major infrastructure projects over the next decade.

At the same time, London is trying to decide on its options for a rapid transit system to help move people and guide future development along its lines under a vision of a more compact city core.

“(The province) will be working with our staff so (both systems) are seamlessly integrated,” Cassidy said, adding “city council as a whole is extremely in support of high-speed rail.”

London has seen a brain drain, especially in the tech sector, that could be reversed if a commute to Toronto could be shaved down to a 77 minutes with high-speed rail — extending the benefits of working in the mega-city to cities like London, too far afield now to be in Toronto’s regular commuter orbit and rail-linked to it only by Via Rail passenger service.

Deputy Premier Deb Matthews of London calls high-speed rail a potential “game-changer” for Southwestern Ontario. “It takes longer and longer to get to Toronto now, and this would allow business to grow and stay in London,” said the London North Centre MPP and president of the provincial treasury board.

“Money is the big question. We have to look at the (environmental assessment) to give us more concrete details of costs,” said Matthews, noting smaller regional communities must also benefit.

“The EA is not just money — it’s ‘what is reasonable, what is the ridership, does it make sense?’ ”

While the province hasn’t worked out the exact route for high-speed rail service — would London’s station be downtown, for example, or at the airport, or somewhere else? — observers say it’s important whatever gets planned works with London’s own rapid transit model.

Although those details haven’t been worked out, either, the corridor “spines” of London’s rapid transit system — known as Shift — won’t change, Cassidy said.

Whether the rapid transit system is light rail, fast bus or a hybrid, it has to hook up with the high-speed rail, she said.

Also important are what connections a high-speed system would have for nearby communities, said Conservative MP Karen Vecchio, whose Elgin-­Middlesex-London riding takes in such centres including St. Thomas.

“If you land in London, do we have infrastructure to get you from there to St. Thomas or Port Stanley for the day?” she asked. “For me, the cost to the end user is going to be the big thing. It’s still so conceptual that it’s hard to grasp.”

How a high-speed service would compete with or complement Via Rail service through the region, one of the rail passenger system’s busiest in Ontario, hasn’t been worked out, either, Vecchio pointed out.

Coun. Anna Hopkins who represented London as acting mayor in the meetings with Collenette, observed, “It made me realize the importance of Shift, and how we need to prove a seamless connection to high-speed rail.”

HIGH-SPEED RAIL IN SW ONTARIO

Long debated, suddenly hot in an infrastructure-spending climate.
Toronto to Windsor, via London and Kitchener-Waterloo.
No cost yet.
Ontario will spend $130 billion over 10 years on infrastructure, including high-speed rail.
77 minutes between London and Toronto.
Last fall, Ontario named ex-federal transport minister David Collenette as high-speed adviser.
Collenette met last week with corridor’s civic and rural leaders to gather input, field questions.
Said province wants a report about plans for the corridor by October 2016.
High-speed feasibility

From a 2014 study:

Infrastructure would cost about $2.5 billion.
By 2025, would attract about six million passengers a year.
Would take an estimated 20,000 vehicles a day off Highway 401.
Fare revenue would cover most capital investment, with net cost to government of about $500 million.
Toronto-London fare would average $43.

Rapid transit in London

Canada’s largest city without a rapid transit system or solid plans to build one.
A proposed system, called Shift, still not nailed down.
City politicians have yet to pick between $470-million rapid bus system or $880-million plan combining fast buses and light rail.
City has allocated $125 million to project; more needed from senior governments.
Hybrid option would see 13 km of light rail running north and east from downtown, 10.6 km of rapid bus service running south and west from downtown.
Stops would be centred on so-called transit villages or hubs, fed by other transit routes
If approved, construction could start in 2017 and be finished by 2027.
Would be largest infrastructure project in city’s history.
High-speed meets rapid transit

Both still in planning, but city and province would have to work together for them to mesh well
What good is a high-speed train that drops you off at London airport, for example, if you can’t get quickly from there to the city core?
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  #1065  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 6:49 PM
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I wonder how they're planning the Pearson station... Ideally you'd have an underground station at the terminals, instead of relying on a people mover to get passengers to the Georgetown line. This would prove incredibly expensive though.
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  #1066  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 7:06 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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People mover I bet, at least on the current rather limited budget. With how much the underground people mover cost at Dulles, imagine the caverns needed for highspeed trainsets! And keep it off the property to try to get rid of passenger landing fees like UPX has.
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  #1067  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 7:22 PM
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They mention London Airport, so is there not gonna be a station downtown?
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  #1068  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 7:37 PM
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London't airport is 80% redundant with HSR directly to Pearson.
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  #1069  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 7:39 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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^ With rail at London Airport do you need Pickering anymore? The federal government could contribute its land directly to the project to be sold to offset costs. Also, the first study fleshed out how to build it for cheap. It is up to the politicians to decide whether it is worth the travel time drop and extra cost for potentially better catchment areas.
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  #1070  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 8:01 PM
OTSkyline OTSkyline is offline
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Hopefully people will be nice in answering me on this but what is the rationale between the dire need of high speed rail between Toronto and London? I think I'm missing the point...

People keep mentioning the tech sector in London and commute but what would this system help; people who want to live in Toronto but work in London's tech sector? Do they think this will attract more talent? I don't see many people doing a daily commute of 77+ minutes and paying $45 each way just to commute back and fourth between both cities.

I guess I'm just wondering what really is the main objective of this and what are the major benefits the government (and cities) want to see out of building this line.
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  #1071  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 8:03 PM
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the 401 is staggeringly congested, and it will give a badly-needed economic shot in the arm for all the cities along the route.
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  #1072  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 8:08 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by OTSkyline View Post
Hopefully people will be nice in answering me on this but what is the rationale between the dire need of high speed rail between Toronto and London? I think I'm missing the point...

People keep mentioning the tech sector in London and commute but what would this system help; people who want to live in Toronto but work in London's tech sector? Do they think this will attract more talent? I don't see many people doing a daily commute of 77+ minutes and paying $45 each way just to commute back and fourth between both cities.

I guess I'm just wondering what really is the main objective of this and what are the major benefits the government (and cities) want to see out of building this line.
You can pay for a lot of commuting with houses that are a 1/3rd the price. A reasonable portion of people working in Toronto's core have worse commute times today.
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  #1073  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 8:08 PM
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^ With rail at London Airport do you need Pickering anymore? The federal government could contribute its land directly to the project to be sold to offset costs. Also, the first study fleshed out how to build it for cheap. It is up to the politicians to decide whether it is worth the travel time drop and extra cost for potentially better catchment areas.
say, that is a great idea.
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  #1074  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 8:17 PM
GreatTallNorth2 GreatTallNorth2 is offline
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There is no question that the stop would be downtown and not at the airport. I don't even know why the London Free Press suggested it would be at the airport.

I would argue that HSR is being considered for Windsor-London-KW-Pearson-Toronto Union because this stretch of land is more densely populated than Toronto-Ottawa and the same or less distance. The area will connect 4 cities rather than 2 and it is reasonable to expect K/W to be in commuting range of Toronto, maybe London. At the very least, there are a lot of business people that would consider investing in London if there is quick access to Toronto.

I know this would be a game changer for London and K/W. I witnessed cities in the UK that were on the fast train line to London - they were the cities that a lot of investment came to.

I could see K/W becoming almost like a Clapton Junction - with another HSR line that went K/W - Hamilton - Niagara Region and on to the U.S.
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  #1075  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by OTSkyline View Post
Hopefully people will be nice in answering me on this but what is the rationale between the dire need of high speed rail between Toronto and London? I think I'm missing the point...

People keep mentioning the tech sector in London and commute but what would this system help; people who want to live in Toronto but work in London's tech sector? Do they think this will attract more talent? I don't see many people doing a daily commute of 77+ minutes and paying $45 each way just to commute back and fourth between both cities.

I guess I'm just wondering what really is the main objective of this and what are the major benefits the government (and cities) want to see out of building this line.
I suppose it's because things have changed a bit since those early studies regarding high-speed rail in the Toronto-Montreal corridor. KWC has become almost an extended suburb of Toronto and both KWC and the Western part of the GTA have both increased in population tremendously, connecting the two regions just makes sense. London is a short and relatively inexpensive spur connecting to KWC that would do a lot for that city. Ottawa to Toronto would be very expensive given that for less than half the price they can connect an almost Ottawa sized population to Toronto (KWC+London). There's no doubt the demand's there, just consider the traffic in this region. Commuting from KWC to Toronto makes no sense by car but by HSR it would be a total game changer. Once this region is integrated it makes sense to eventually extend it to Ottawa once the money's there. At least, that's my perspective.
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  #1076  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 8:51 PM
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I suppose it's because things have changed a bit since those early studies regarding high-speed rail in the Toronto-Montreal corridor. KWC has become almost an extended suburb of Toronto and both KWC and the Western part of the GTA have both increased in population tremendously, connecting the two regions just makes sense. London is a short and relatively inexpensive spur connecting to KWC that would do a lot for that city. Ottawa to Toronto would be very expensive given that for less than half the price they can connect an almost Ottawa sized population to Toronto (KWC+London). There's no doubt the demand's there, just consider the traffic in this region. Commuting from KWC to Toronto makes no sense by car but by HSR it would be a total game changer. Once this region is integrated it makes sense to eventually extend it to Ottawa once the money's there. At least, that's my perspective.
I was actually a bit skeptical of the Toronto-London line (relative to the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal line) but this post makes it a lot clearer for me.

I can see how that makes sense for the Ontario government.
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  #1077  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 9:04 PM
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London is the 4th busiest VIA station in the country.

I don't think there is any doubt the station will be in downtown London. I hope a Windsor extension is part of the plan as it's a major city and would be a natural with the planned Detroit to Chicago HSR.

Another thing with KWC/London is that the 401 has horrific traffic and so it's either spending money on an ever-expanding 401 or on HSR. This is not the case in the Ott/Mon route where traffic {and especially transport traffic} is a fraction of the Toronto/London 401.
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  #1078  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 9:12 PM
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Originally Posted by OTSkyline View Post
Hopefully people will be nice in answering me on this but what is the rationale between the dire need of high speed rail between Toronto and London? I think I'm missing the point...

People keep mentioning the tech sector in London and commute but what would this system help; people who want to live in Toronto but work in London's tech sector? Do they think this will attract more talent? I don't see many people doing a daily commute of 77+ minutes and paying $45 each way just to commute back and fourth between both cities.

I guess I'm just wondering what really is the main objective of this and what are the major benefits the government (and cities) want to see out of building this line.
The main objective is to fast link the Waterloo and Toronto high tech hubs - the biggest single benefit will be to those wanting to live in K-W and work in Toronto, followed by those commuting in the opposite direction. The benefit for London will be similar, but on a lesser scale.
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  #1079  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 9:18 PM
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Funnily enough, i actually know different people who commute either from Brantford to Toronto, Toronto to Belleville or Waterloo to Toronto. People are driving these great distances for work daily in our notorious rush hour traffic, with HSR these people would travel effortlessly.
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  #1080  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2016, 9:21 PM
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Funnily enough, i actually know different people who commute either from Brantford to Toronto, Toronto to Belleville or Waterloo to Toronto. People are driving these great distances for work daily in our notorious rush hour traffic, with HSR these people would travel effortlessly.
The number is a few years old, but I've read that 15,000 people in K-C-W commute to Toronto, while 9.000 people go from Toronto to K-C-W.
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