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  #641  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 8:21 AM
austlar1 austlar1 is online now
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WC- Keep fighting the good fight. I don't have the energy, but if you want to take on AJ and M1, I'll be rooting for you. They have held sway around here for a long time with their rude put-downs and all-knowing attitude. They get away with it largely because most posters on this site tend to have similar elitist views about toll roads and regard anybody who doesn't ride a bike to work or live downtown as an environmental criminal or a suburban neanderthal.
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  #642  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 8:37 AM
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
WC- Keep fighting the good fight. I don't have the energy, but if you want to take on AJ and M1, I'll be rooting for you. They have held sway around here for a long time with their rude put-downs and all-knowing attitude. They get away with it largely because most posters on this site tend to have similar elitist views about toll roads and regard anybody who doesn't ride a bike to work or live downtown as an environmental criminal or a suburban neanderthal.
This glad-handing us vs. them pandering is going to get you nowhere, not when arguments like "1604 is not a freeway!" are being passed off as some sort of argument winning coup de grace.

I'd also like to point out that your hypocrisy is overbearing, austlar-- stating that M1EK and myself use put-downs and an all-knowing attitude while putting down the entire forum with a generalization is so far beyond the pale that I'm having a hard time justifying to myself what you could possibly be doing on this forum other than lamenting some sort of imagined hardship.
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  #643  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by worldcreator View Post
Umm yes it's your OPINION that everyone who voted for PROP 1 knowingly voted to allow that money to be used for the financing of toll roads.
No, it's possible there were a few cave-dwellers or rock-liver-unders or other such people who didn't know. My point is that your claim that it was "hidden" from people, or that the money was "diverted", originally "intended" for freeways is a lie.

If they were shouting to the rooftops in every single media outlet that they were going to be toll roads, it can't possibly be an attempt to divert the money - because it wouldn't have worked.

Back to the ballot language, again, there are requirements that force very vague language on transportation bonds. For instance, both the light rail and the commuter rail ballot language said nothing about the route of the train - other than in the most recent case where it would begin and where it would end. There's a very good reason for that - the ballot language is _binding_.

In the case of the 2000 election, they used the most general language they could to allow for the right-of-way donations to be used whereever necessary - if TXDOT suddenly came up with enough money to make SH130 'free', for instance, and they had put 'tollway' in the ballot language, it couldn't have been used. Or if one of the projects had hit an environmental snag and the city wanted to use the money for right-of-way on a different roadway, they could.

Note that "highway" and "roadway" are terms which encompass ALL of: freeways and tollways, parkways, expressways, arterial roads, etc.

Do you get it yet?

Again, they couldn't possibly have been attempting to mislead you since they were actively seeking out every single media outlet in the area on repeated occasions, and those media outlets covered the story over and over and over again.

If at this point you claim that Watson tried to divert freeway money, or that TXDOT or anybody else was trying to mislead people into thinking they weren't going to be tollways, you are a liar.
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  #644  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 1:56 PM
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I'm curious to hear how everyone (especially you M1EK) feels about commuter rail ticket pricing and specifically what is talked about in the article:

http://www.statesman.com/news/conten...0514zoned.html

Commuter rail: Pay more to go more?
Capital Metro considering 'zoned' prices for 32-mile lines to achieve 'psychological equity'

By Ben Wear
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Wednesday, May 14, 2008

Capital Metro officials are considering "zoned" prices for commuter rail, setting up a tiered fare schedule so that the farther passengers travel, the more they would pay.

Capital Metro board Chairman Lee Walker said Monday at a board meeting that if for no other reason than "psychological equity," it makes sense to have zoned prices.

But doing it might not be easy. Capital Metro's 32-mile commuter rail line from Leander to Austin, when it opens late this year or early next year, will have open platforms and no conductors on its trains. This setup is similar to most light rail systems, including those in Dallas and Houston, which typically don't have zoned prices.

Some systems, such as the one in Washington, have "closed" platforms. Passengers buy a card with a certain amount of money programmed into it, then pass the money card through an electronic reader at a turnstile. That records where the passenger got on. Then the rider, after leaving the train, puts that card through another turnstile on the way out, which notes the destination.

The customer is charged an amount commensurate to the distance traveled, and gets back the card with that amount deducted. There will be no turnstiles or fences around the nine local stations.

On Capital Metro's commuter line, as is the case in Dallas and Houston and other systems, customers will simply walk up to the platform, put money in a machine and get a ticket. Then, when the train comes, they board. Unlike on a bus, where riders pass by the driver and pay at the front, the train operator will be in a closed compartment and won't have interaction with passengers.

Capital Metro security officers will be on board some trains to check people for tickets. Those caught with no ticket, or potentially the wrong ticket in a zoned system, would be escorted off at the next station "in order to purchase a valid ticket," Capital Metro spokesman Adam Shaivitz said in an e-mail Tuesday. "Officers will have the authority to issue citations for theft of services and other offenses."

Unless the agency board decides to have zoned prices, those who get on in Leander and go 32 miles to downtown Austin would pay no more than a person who gets on at the last stop, Saltillo Plaza near Fifth and Comal streets, and travels 0.8 of a mile.

"My instinct would be to go with zoned prices," Walker said. Board members Brewster McCracken and John Cowman said Monday that conceptually they support a tiered fare system as well.

Randy Hume, Capital Metro's chief financial officer, said the way it might work is that people getting on at the two stops farthest out, Leander and Lakeline Mall, would pay the full suggested price of $1.50. People who board on the seven stops farther in, Hume said, would pay a lower rate, which would be comparable to a regular bus price. That fare is 50 cents now, but under a fare increase plan the board is discussing, the base fare would go up to 75 cents in 2009.

But there could be complications.Passengers who board at either end could be headed for an early stop — in theory cheaper to purchase — or to the far end of the line in the higher-priced zone. Capital Metro would have to find a way to differentiate the tickets, and effectively educate riders on which to buy, and how.

The board must also decide whether two zones are enough. The Howard Lane/MoPac Boulevard (Loop 1) stop is 14.7 miles from downtown, but under the current thinking would have the same fare as the short hop to Plaza Saltillo.

Dallas, despite the possibility of a 35-mile trip from Plano to South Dallas on its light rail system, does not have zones. However, the Trinity River Express commuter line between Fort Worth and Dallas, owned jointly by the two cities' transit agencies, does have differing rates for trips within a county, or all the way from one city to the other.
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  #645  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 2:38 PM
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I like zoned fares - but that's not even the biggest issue here. The biggest issue to me is that residents of Cedar Park can free-ride on this thing (they don't pay taxes to CM, but have a rail stop close enough to use and are far enough out where the service might actually be useful someday even with the transfer; while most Austin residents can't use it - especially the central Austin residents who pay most of the bills).
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  #646  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 3:01 PM
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Also about some people being shocked that toll roads came. I'm shocked that they're shocked, although not really. With a 4 percent voter turn out in the local early voting elections, it's no wonder people don't know what's going on in their community or being voted on. It's because they don't bother to learn, and they don't bother to vote. So when things to go sour to their taste, they throw a fit and call foul. 2000 was a huge election year no doubt what with the presidential elections going on, so voter turn out that year was actually good. So people had the perfect opportunity to vote on it and learn about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austlar1
WC- Keep fighting the good fight. I don't have the energy, but if you want to take on AJ and M1, I'll be rooting for you. They have held sway around here for a long time with their rude put-downs and all-knowing attitude. They get away with it largely because most posters on this site tend to have similar elitist views about toll roads and regard anybody who doesn't ride a bike to work or live downtown as an environmental criminal or a suburban neanderthal.
I don't work downtown, or live downtown, or ride my bike to work. And I wouldn't consider my neighborhood urban either. It's not as suburban as say places in Round Rock or our suburbs or outer neighborhoods. It's not as urban and even walkable to most urban cities' standards or dense neighborhoods, though I do my best to go against that grain with my habits. I'm mostly neutral on toll roads. I'm not crazy about it, (no one likes to pay for stuff), but it has to be paid for somehow. And while we don't use the highways and freeways often, I believe if you do use it, then you should pay for it. Part of the problem with the budget crunch with transportation is that suburban sprawl is creating more roads that have to be planned, designed, built, and maintained. Those roads are draining on the system as a whole. The only way to combat the need for toll roads is to reduce the need to drive. Have better public transportation. Light rail, better bus lines, commuter rail and make neighborhoods more pedestrian oriented and or friendly. Neighborhoods don't even have to be rebuilt to do that. Just make it easier for people to walk. Build sidewalks and maintain them and have more bus routes and bike lanes.

It costs my aunt and brother (they work at the same place) 10 dollars a day to drive to work from South Austin to North Austin. So rather than do that, they take a vanpool ride. I also took the bus the other day for jury duty from North Austin to downtown and it cost just 50 cents. That's a freakin' sweet deal.
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  #647  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 4:26 PM
bgrn198 bgrn198 is offline
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Originally Posted by alexjon View Post
The north part of 1604, which will be the most heavily managed, is a freeway.


Yes but San Antonio built their freeways like loop 410 and 1604 even before they were needed unlike Austin who waited untill the traffic got horrible to start building new freeways like 183 and Ben White and now they don't have the money to build anymore which shows that Austin didn't plan very well back in the late 80's early 90's.
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  #648  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bgrn198 View Post
Yes but San Antonio built their freeways like loop 410 and 1604 even before they were needed unlike Austin who waited untill the traffic got horrible to start building new freeways like 183 and Ben White and now they don't have the money to build anymore which shows that Austin didn't plan very well back in the late 80's early 90's.
I spent a summer in SA in 2000. That isn't the way I remember it At that time, SA had a collection of freeways, rather than a freeway system. Had to exit one to enter another. 1604 wasn't a freeway, it was a highway with lights. Traffic was heavy then, and they were much needed. My guess would be that SA just had the critical mass of population required to undertake the projects, while Austin did not.
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  #649  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 4:42 PM
bgrn198 bgrn198 is offline
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Yeah well i've been going to San Antonio since I was a baby and 1604 on the north side was a freeway back in 2000 and 410 has been there since like the 60's I know because my aunt and uncle live there and my dad grew up in SA.
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  #650  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 4:46 PM
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It's been a freeway since the 80s. There are parts outside of that north side that aren't, but that's because it isn't a major population area. Also, people use it to go from 10 to 35.
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  #651  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 4:56 PM
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M1EK is having an affair with someone in San Antonio and they're soooooooo cute together since they write alike!

http://www.texhwyman.com/tolleditorial1.htm

An awesome summary of everything M1EK has been saying by someone who actually paid attention, commentary on erroneous assumptions (San Antonio's situation is different from Austin) and a general reality check on the topic.
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  #652  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 5:07 PM
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That guy's even a highway fan, which I'm not. But it shows that people who are honest and sufficiently educated generally come to the same conclusions on this stuff.
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  #653  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 5:21 PM
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I know 1604 on the northside has been a freeway since the 80's from I35 to Bandera road it's two lanes each direction with access roads the rest of 1604 is a highway with stop lights kinda like 360 here in Austin but I remember back when 1604 was out in the country and there was hardly any traffic on it and it wasn't even built up out that way yet.
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  #654  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JAM View Post
I spent a summer in SA in 2000. That isn't the way I remember it At that time, SA had a collection of freeways, rather than a freeway system. Had to exit one to enter another. 1604 wasn't a freeway, it was a highway with lights. Traffic was heavy then, and they were much needed. My guess would be that SA just had the critical mass of population required to undertake the projects, while Austin did not.


http://www.texhwyman.com/l1604.htm
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  #655  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 5:31 PM
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It wasn't all that country, it was just a chain of developments: 281 + Bitters, UTSA, etc.
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  #656  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 6:37 PM
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I don't like toll roads and I sure as heck didn't vote for them. I think I will get myself one of those adorable little electric cars that can't go any faster than 45 miles and hour that way I wont be able to use them. Unless they start building them all around me including regular streets then Its time for a mass rebellion....
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  #657  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 6:42 PM
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So you have a workable solution for road funding shortfalls, Jdawgboy?
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  #658  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 7:02 PM
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This thread is zero fun now. :/
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  #659  
Old Posted May 15, 2008, 4:11 AM
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Originally Posted by alexjon View Post
The north part of 1604, which will be the most heavily managed, is a freeway.

1604 is a HIGHWAY. It's called STATE HIGHWAY LOOP 1604. I already mentioned that a small northern section is an expressway. And it only comprises about 1/5th of the total length of the road. Primarily 1604 is a highway.

Besides, you're obviously not comprehending the main issue of what my complaint is. Which is that ANY new Austin expressway project is ONLY being proposed as a tollway. Not just brand new roads, but the conversion of existing roads, AND the widening of existing roads. San Antonio had IH-410 widened without tolls. Houston is having IH-10 widened without tolls. Dallas is having IH-30 widened without tolls. El Paso has various widening projects without tolls.

We can't even get a SINGLE lane added to a major expressway here without a bunch of pro toll road jerks sticking their nose in it and trying to make a buck off the deal. We desperately need an extra lane (or 2) in both directions on IH-35, as well as Mopac. And the best our local transportation authorities can come up with is to just TOLL it.

All of this is mainly due to the horrible leadership of Rick Perry and his toll road happy, special interest goons. They have created an atmosphere of NO roads or toll roads. They have lied of about available funds and diverted our gax taxes towards other projects which have NOTHING to do with transportation, so they can claim that they're out of money allowing them to force feed toll roads down everyone's throats. WHY??? Because toll roads make money, "tax" roads don't. Roads are supposed to be for the greater good of it's citizens and to facilitate commerce, NOT as a tool for profit!!!
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  #660  
Old Posted May 15, 2008, 4:21 AM
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
WC- Keep fighting the good fight. I don't have the energy, but if you want to take on AJ and M1, I'll be rooting for you. They have held sway around here for a long time with their rude put-downs and all-knowing attitude. They get away with it largely because most posters on this site tend to have similar elitist views about toll roads and regard anybody who doesn't ride a bike to work or live downtown as an environmental criminal or a suburban neanderthal.

Thanks... Yes I can now see this site is partly infested with arrogant elitists. Perhaps some of them are among the new high rise condo dwellers. Wouldn't surpise me. I guess they can afford to live in one, so screw everyone else eh? I'm sure they would be happy to toll every major corridor in Austin since they don't have to drive on it. Everyone else be damned with a $50, $100, $150+ TX Tag bill every month.

I've also noticed that the moderator "KevinFromTexas" has selective editing of posts.
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