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  #21  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by fflint View Post
Agreed.

His two best ideas:

*Conventional, off-the-shelf heavy rail for the Geary corridor through downtown and over to Transbay, with downtown transfers to Muni and BART subways. Cheaper than BART's proprietary stuff, more capacity than light rail for Muni's busiest (non-downtown) transit corridor.

*A second transbay tunnel with standard-gauge rail to Alameda/Oakland. It would not only help redevelop the old naval base, but it might also allow for regular Amtrak service into the City via Oakland. Perhaps even HSR could roll through that tunnel on dedicated tracks if necessary--Penninsula NIMBYs seem determined, as usual, to keep all change from touching their little garden suburbs.
i think this would be fantastic. that means u would be able to take hsr from sf to sac VIA OAKLAND (either thru the altamont or capitol corridor right of ways). and the transbay terminal being an amtrak TRAIN station? this would be train porn.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by northbay420 View Post
i think this would be fantastic. that means u would be able to take hsr from sf to sac VIA OAKLAND (either thru the altamont or capitol corridor right of ways). and the transbay terminal being an amtrak TRAIN station? this would be train porn.
It's all pure speculation, of course. But we have needed both a Geary subway and a second Transbay train tunnel for decades now, and this could solve both those problems. Smart blog.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 1:17 AM
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A nice fantasy but it will never actually fly. And let's not forget that the reason the Geary corridor gets ignored is that there's no consensus among residents and businesses along Geary in favor of rail transit, especially underground rail transit.

Personally, only one thing about the idea excites me: the potential to bring long distance rail to points other than SoCal into downtown SF. Otherwise, I don't see it as better or more likely to happen than a BART or Muni Metro extension out Geary.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 1:27 AM
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A nice fantasy but it will never actually fly. And let's not forget that the reason the Geary corridor gets ignored is that there's no consensus among residents and businesses along Geary in favor of rail transit, especially underground rail transit.
When was an actual proposal for rail transit on Geary realistically proposed (voter proposition or actual Muni/SFCTA/MTA proposal with funding scenarios - like the current BART to SJ plan or Central Subway - some funding has been in place for years for both of those projects, but funding for a Geary subway has never been put in place, so there has never been anything to get behind OR campaign against, as is the case with Geary BRT)? The current line amongst the Geary merchants is that BRT shouldn't be pursued because a BART subway would be better. To my knowledge, there has never been a proposal with teeth that would put rail on Geary, since the 1933 proposition vote. The actual BART propositions always had Geary as a future corridor, and there has never been a Muni proposal for rail that actually had money behind it like the Central Subway, for example, since the 1933 vote.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 1:39 AM
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If the Richmond movers and shakers had demanded a subway line in unison like Chinatown did, there would have been "an actual proposal" long ago. Nobody gets anything in SF without neighborhood consensus and there is none in the Richmond.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 2:11 AM
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I suppose. I'm not aware of Chinatown pushing "in unison" for a subway until it was an actual proposal from Willie Brown (prop K in 2003 and prop B funding prior to that), but perhaps I'm wrong. As I'm sure you know, many of the details of the plan were ironed out after it was determined that the Embarcadero Freeway would be torn down as a "consolation prize" - and Chinatown was VERY torn on what to do before that, with most (but not all) merchants VERY opposed to a subway and VERY supportive of rebuilding the freeway. What Geary needs is leadership from politicians (either a mayor or a few supervisors), not some vague agreement amongst merchants on only one portion of the street (Richmond merchants and residents have different goals/desires than Japantown, Fillmore, Cathedral Hill, etc, etc merchants and residents).
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 4:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinSF View Post
If the Richmond movers and shakers had demanded a subway line in unison like Chinatown did, there would have been "an actual proposal" long ago. Nobody gets anything in SF without neighborhood consensus and there is none in the Richmond.
not too familiar with sf politics but doesnt chinatown have much more political clout than the richmond anyway? i dont blame the merchants for opposing brt as it will eliminate a regular traffic lane.

really, be it standard gauge heavy rail or bart, the geary corridor needs underground rail, period. i dont think even muni will cut it (with its slower speeds and small trains).

gordo, u say there was a proposition in 1933 to bring rail to geary. 80 years ago?!?!? man, thats depressing.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 4:07 AM
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What are we talking about here? EMUs in a subway, like a regional rail system?
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  #29  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 4:13 AM
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What are we talking about here? EMUs in a subway, like a regional rail system?
i believe he means heavy metro trains (standard gauge)
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  #30  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 5:49 AM
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How is that different than BART as it currently exists? I mean, BART has wider gauge and fully-automated operation, but those don't add cost (automation has capital cost for signal systems and programming, but saves cost in the long run, since you're not paying for a skilled motorman).
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 6:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
How is that different than BART as it currently exists? I mean, BART has wider gauge and fully-automated operation, but those don't add cost (automation has capital cost for signal systems and programming, but saves cost in the long run, since you're not paying for a skilled motorman).
The equipment is all custom and more expensive and you ARE paying for a "skilled motorman"--whether he actually does anything or not, he's there and he's union.

As for Geary, what the merchants don't like is the loss of PARKING. And they'd just love the idea of potential customers whizzing by their locations out of sight underground I'm sure.

A Geary line (leading to a Golden Gate crossing to Marin) was part of the original BART plan but got canned when Marin voted not to participate (i.e. tax itself) in BART.

The Richmond doesn't have the clout of Chinatown because they aren't organized as well and, as I said, they rarely speak with a unified voice. But, if they could find such a voice they could potentially have as much clout as Chinatown and quite possibly more--they have the population of regular voters and the economic resources. Much of Chinatown is poor with the exception of a few wealthy "community leaders" but the Richmond is decidedly middle class, even affluent (it's where many Asian immigrants move from Chinatown to when they make some money after all).
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 4:12 PM
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A Geary line (leading to a Golden Gate crossing to Marin) was part of the original BART plan but got canned when Marin voted not to participate (i.e. tax itself) in BART.
sonoma hasnt forgotton how marin shafted the north bay when it voted to be left out of the bart tax district. thats y we shoved smart down their throats.

i dream of a second golden gate crossing (an floating underwater tunnel maybe) to connect smart to the transbay terminal basically along the old proposed bart right of way along geary. smart could then use emus (or if doesnt want to electrify the entire line - hybrids - yes, they do exist and will probably be used for caltrain as the section to salinas wont be electrified), and hsr could continue to the north bay.

now unfortunately, THAT will never happen.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 11:41 PM
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^^ A floating underwater tunnel? So something that doesn't rest on the ground, but instead is somewhere in the middle between the surface and ocean floor? Doesn't sound very safe to me. Even if it's low enough to avoid large ships, whales also enter San Francisco Bay from time to time. What happens if one of them hits the floating tunnel? I wouldn't want to be on a train going through that tunnel at that time.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 12:18 AM
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^^ A floating underwater tunnel? So something that doesn't rest on the ground, but instead is somewhere in the middle between the surface and ocean floor? Doesn't sound very safe to me. Even if it's low enough to avoid large ships, whales also enter San Francisco Bay from time to time. What happens if one of them hits the floating tunnel? I wouldn't want to be on a train going through that tunnel at that time.
I'm too lazy to dig up a link at the moment, but it's been done before. In places like Norway with deep fjords it's cheaper to build a floating tunnel than build a tunnel all the way down to the bottom of the fjord.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 5:15 AM
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I'm too lazy to dig up a link at the moment, but it's been done before. In places like Norway with deep fjords it's cheaper to build a floating tunnel than build a tunnel all the way down to the bottom of the fjord.
actually, technically it hasnt.

but it is theoretically possible to do and several proposals have been put forward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submerged_floating_tunnel
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  #36  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by northbay420 View Post
actually, technically it hasnt.

but it is theoretically possible to do and several proposals have been put forward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submerged_floating_tunnel
Cool, I guess I watch too many shows on the Discovery/History channel where they show off cool big projects that are only proposed, not actually built yet I thought it had been done in Norway or Denmark. Nevermind then.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2010, 12:22 AM
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Central Subway Gets Green Light

In today's Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...#ixzz0c4OhVGU8

Quote:
Federal transit officials gave San Francisco the green light Thursday to enter the final design stage of the $1.6 billion Central Subway project.

The approval -- long-awaited by city officials -- puts Muni in better standing to receive $942 million in transportation funding from Uncle Sam to build the 1.7 mile light-rail extension into Chinatown from China Basin.

'This is great news. It's a big step forward for public transportation in San Francisco,'' said project manager John Funghi.

The Federal Transit Administration said the city has shown it has adequate financial, technical and environmental plans to proceed with developing a more refined design.

However, federal officials tempered their congratulations with a few warning signs before more money will flow from the U.S. Treasury. Chief among them: Muni needs to secure $164 million in local, regional and state funding for the project by the end of 2011.

Federal officials also raised concerns that Muni may have difficulty maintaining the system's current level of service and properly maintaining the fleet once the Central Subway is added -- both requirements of the federal funding program. Muni officials voiced confidence that they can demonstrate that the Central Subway will not erode other service.

Muni officials expect the earliest they'll hear whether the full federal funding grant will be awarded is in late 2011. Plans call for starting service in 2018.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2010, 6:01 AM
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Cool renderings of the Central Subway from the SFMTA, with more coverage at sfstreetsblog. I highly recommend following both links, especially the interactive MTA ones.

The Central Subway


Initial operating segment: this is where the new rail segment begins. If the aerial photo were a clock, at about five o'clock you've got the T Third light rail station, seven o'clock is the N Judah light rail station, and from about eight to eleven is the Caltrain commuter rail terminal:


Fourth/Brannan Station:


Street-running segment:


The train goes underground underneath the elevated 80 freeway leading to the Bay Bridge.



Moscone Station:


Union Square/Market Street Station:


Chinatown Station:
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2010, 7:48 PM
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If they are going to dig a tunnel that far and excavate a hole to extract the TBM why aren't they putting a station in North Beach? It could be an open-air one at the portal and have emergency tail tracks running up the street a short distance
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  #40  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2010, 2:10 AM
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If they are going to dig a tunnel that far and excavate a hole to extract the TBM why aren't they putting a station in North Beach? It could be an open-air one at the portal and have emergency tail tracks running up the street a short distance
i thought they were leaving the tbm since they plan on a future extension to north beach where there will indeed be a station.
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