Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Isn't Chiac considered a dialect? I thought it was rather more than just "franglais".

Chiac sont very much comme franglais ouais. C'est la même thing.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've never found that the Gatineau accent differs from mainstream Quebec accents. Aside from a handful of local expressions, it's very similar to Montreal, for example.

All of the people I'm thinking of as being Gatineau residents also lived in Ontario for a while and are bilingual, so it's possible that I'm just confusing that with a Franco-Ontarian accent.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As loco said, in a place like Timmins basically everyone who is native to the city will have native speaker fluency in English. Even the francophones.

There used to be a lot of handwringing about dialects like Chiac being damaging because they replace standard English and French. There might be some isolated places where this happens but my impression is that most people are able to adapt to speak a more standard version of one or both languages. Only a small percentage of people in Moncton declare that they speak French only (it's roughly 50/50 English/bilingual - https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...&GK=CMA&GC=305).

I think this was mostly a smokescreen used by people who aren't big on linguistic diversity. The same sentiment used to be a driving force behind eliminating Gaelic languages, replacing the smaller Eastern Bloc languages with Russian, etc.

It is good to be able to communicate in some widely-used standard language but that can easily coexist with local dialects and languages.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

There used to be a lot of handwringing about dialects like Chiac being damaging because they replace standard English and French. There might be some isolated places where this happens but my impression is that most people are able to adapt to speak a more standard version of one or both languages. Only a small percentage of people in Moncton declare that they speak French only (it's roughly 50/50 English/bilingual - https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...&GK=CMA&GC=305).

I think this was mostly a smokescreen used by people who aren't big on linguistic diversity. The same sentiment used to be a driving force behind eliminating Gaelic languages, replacing the smaller Eastern Bloc languages with Russian, etc.

It is good to be able to communicate in some widely-used standard language but that can easily coexist with local dialects and languages.

While some people tend to go overboard with fear-mongering, it's not a complete exaggeration to portray Chiac as a threat to French.

It's been a while but I've said before on here that I'd feel more positively about Chiac if anglos in SE NB spoke it too, but by and large they don't.

So while some might portray Chiac as the natural meshing of the English and French speaking communities in SE NB, that's not what it is. It's not Singlish or Haitian Creole, let's say.

Only Acadians steak Chiac, really. And SE NB anglos tend speak the exact same English as other English Canadians do.

So in this sense it's not hard to see that Chiac could be more of a transitional phase between pure French and pure English.

As opposed to a linguistic meeting place.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While some people tend to go overboard with fear-mongering, it's not a complete exaggeration to portray Chiac as a threat to French.

It's been a while but I've said before on here that I'd feel more positively about Chiac if anglos in SE NB spoke it too, but by and large they don't.

So while some might portray Chiac as the natural meshing of the English and French speaking communities in SE NB, that's not what it is. It's not Singlish or Haitian Creole, let's say.

Only Acadians steak Chiac, really. And SE NB anglos tend speak the exact same English as other English Canadians do.

So in this sense it's not hard to see that Chiac could be more of a transitional phase between pure French and pure English.

As opposed to a linguistic meeting place.

Great post, BTW. I get it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While some people tend to go overboard with fear-mongering, it's not a complete exaggeration to portray Chiac as a threat to French.

I can see how this is a compelling explanation given the demographics but most of the time when I've heard criticism along these lines it hasn't come from this angle (which might be a more common line of reasoning within the Acadian community). Most frequently I hear paternalistic judgement, usually from unilingual English speakers. Often people claim to be concerned about the Chiac speakers not being able to get by (the implication is that they are essentially less educated and capable because they can't speak a "real" language; but they almost all speak English too, and many can speak a more standard French when needed). Another less articulate variant of this is that linguistic communities in this state don't "deserve" to survive.

I am just speculating but even within New Brunswick I can imagine that the drive-by judges are a bigger group than those who are genuinely concerned with encouraging the preservation and development of French in the province. It might not be a great idea for Francophones to speak against Chiac too loudly.

There must also be a lot of dialects like this that started as a transitional phase but ended up becoming stable because of social changes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I can see how this is a compelling explanation given the demographics but most of the time when I've heard criticism along these lines it hasn't come from this angle (which might be a more common line of reasoning within the Acadian community). Most frequently I hear paternalistic judgement, usually from unilingual English speakers. Often people claim to be concerned about the Chiac speakers not being able to get by (the implication is that they are essentially less educated and capable because they can't speak a "real" language; but they almost all speak English too, and many can speak a more standard French when needed). Another less articulate variant of this is that linguistic communities in this state don't "deserve" to survive.

I am just speculating but even within New Brunswick I can imagine that the drive-by judges are a bigger group than those who are genuinely concerned with encouraging the preservation and development of French in the province. It might not be a great idea for Francophones to speak against Chiac too loudly.

There must also be a lot of dialects like this that started as a transitional phase but ended up becoming stable because of social changes.

I now see where you are coming from. Another chapter in the old novella about how the French spoken in Canada isn't real French.

[kwoldtimer]

Surely all but very elderly Chiac speakers in New Brunswick attended either English or French language schools and speak one (at least) standard official language in addition to Chiac, no?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Surely all but very elderly Chiac speakers in New Brunswick attended either English or French language schools and speak one (at least) standard official language in addition to Chiac, no?

In theory, yes.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While some people tend to go overboard with fear-mongering, it's not a complete exaggeration to portray Chiac as a threat to French.

It's been a while but I've said before on here that I'd feel more positively about Chiac if anglos in SE NB spoke it too, but by and large they don't.

So while some might portray Chiac as the natural meshing of the English and French speaking communities in SE NB, that's not what it is. It's not Singlish or Haitian Creole, let's say.

Only Acadians steak Chiac, really. And SE NB anglos tend speak the exact same English as other English Canadians do.

So in this sense it's not hard to see that Chiac could be more of a transitional phase between pure French and pure English.

As opposed to a linguistic meeting place.

You are correct about Chiac or Franglais being threats to the French language. Here in Northeastern Ontario, no anglophones speak Franglais. I know anglophones from Hearst (90% francophone town) who speak English no differently than most English speaking Canadians. I'm anglophone and can speak French but never mix the languages together.

[RWin]

My daughter speaks French but learned it in Alberta. She has been going to the University of Laval and finds that when she speaks French in town, people will try to switch to English (which for her defeats the purpose of being there - so she continues on in French). Apparently her accent is obviously "western" (and most likely influenced by the fact that English is her first language).

Not being a French speaker myself I can't tell the difference between her speech to that of someone who grew up in Quebec.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Surely all but very elderly Chiac speakers in New Brunswick attended either English or French language schools and speak one (at least) standard official language in addition to Chiac, no?

That's the thing... I live right in the middle of it and the majority of the people who speak Chiac are in the 15-50 demographic. If you listen to the people who truly mash the languages fluidly, it's generally young folk who don't even know they're doing it. The older folks spoke French at home, went to English (forced to, sometimes) schools and as a result tend to be most comfortable speaking French but reading English (I've found many have trouble with written French out of Quebec). That latter phenomenon unfortunately leaves them in limbo... many are disadvantaged in both languages, really.

[ue]

I'm not sure if there's a better thread for this so...

I'm a bit curious about the Anglophone population of Quebec City. The story usually focuses on the larger Anglo population in Montreal and the subsequent mass exodus starting in the '70s. All I've read about it in QC is that it was smaller, albeit significant (a lot of Old Quebec's buildings were built by the English) but that over time, the Anglos in Quebec City were assimilated into the Francophone population.

I'm curious of why things played out differently in Quebec City. In Montreal, rather than assimilating, Anglos left, or defiantly stood their ground, perhaps learning French over time, but still speaking in English at home. Was it simply that QC's Anglos were smaller in number, perhaps more isolated from English Canada? Are there any "Anglo" strongholds in the city, like Montreal's Mile-End?

[kwoldtimer]

The filthy weather in Ottawa today got me wondering about the word "soaker", a noun meaning the result when one steps into deep water/slush or to puts a foot through ice such that cold water/slush/snow comes in over the top of your boot. As a child, I called this "a soaker", as in "I got a soaker!" or "Careful or you'll get a soaker". Everybody used the term and all the kids and parents knew what it meant. So, my question is how common is this? Is there anything particularly Canadian about it? I must admit I haven't heard it for years.

[drew]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The filthy weather in Ottawa today got me wondering about the word "soaker", a noun meaning the result when one steps into deep water/slush or to puts a foot through ice such that cold water/slush/snow comes in over the top of your boot. As a child, I called this "a soaker", as in "I got a soaker!" or "Careful or you'll get a soaker". Everybody used the term and all the kids and parents knew what it meant. So, my question is how common is this? Is there anything particularly Canadian about it? I must admit I haven't heard it for years.

The correct term is "booter" .

[JHikka]

NB numbers since they're being discussed:

Knowledge of Official Languages (New Brunswick)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 418K/73K/238K/480
2006: 405K/74K/240K/765
2011: 427K/66K/246K/960

Knowledge of Official Languages (New Brunswick)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 57%/10%/33%/0%
2006: 56%/10%/33%/0%
2011: 58%/9%/33%/0%

Unilingual anglophone growth is outpacing bilingual growth in NB as unilingual Francophones steadily disappear from the province.

Knowledge of Official Languages (Moncton CMA)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 58,980/2,845/49,930/35
2006: 60,490/5,270/58,195/100
2011: 68,060/4,650/63,240/190

Knowledge of Official Languages (Saint John CMA)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 108,670/180/15,225/140
2006: 101,455/150/19,065/205
2011: 107,145/165/18,695/280

Knowledge of Official Languages (Fredericton CMA)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 63,395/245/14,800/85
2006: 66,130/385/18,380/175
2011: 72,895/330/20,020/270

Bilingual growth outpaces unilingual anglophone growth in Moncton. Saint John is Saint John. Unilingual anglophone growth outpaces bilingual growth in Fredericton. All three CMAs had anglophone areas added to the CMAs for 2016 so there should be a slight increase there, most noticeably in Fredericton. The non-official category will see a bump due to the Syrian refugees.

Kent County, which is a central Acadien area, is seeing an interesting development:

Knowledge of Official Languages (Kent County)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 5,275/4,120/22,275/35
2006: 6,115/4,160/20,690/40
2011: 6,375/2,790/21,165/15

Unilingual anglophones are replacing unilingual francophones while bilingual numbers decrease slightly. Unilingual francophone numbers are decreasing throughout Northern NB where the vast majority of them would be elderly. Bilingual numbers aren't entirely making up for their loss, proportionally speaking.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The filthy weather in Ottawa today got me wondering about the word "soaker", a noun meaning the result when one steps into deep water/slush or to puts a foot through ice such that cold water/slush/snow comes in over the top of your boot. As a child, I called this "a soaker", as in "I got a soaker!" or "Careful or you'll get a soaker". Everybody used the term and all the kids and parents knew what it meant. So, my question is how common is this? Is there anything particularly Canadian about it? I must admit I haven't heard it for years.

I can confirm that I grew up in southern Ontario in the 1970s and 80s hearing and using that term exactly as you describe it.

Originally Posted by drew

The correct term is "booter" .

Ah, a regional variation in Manitoba. I don't recall hearing it when I lived in Winnipeg, but then again there are no slush or puddles to stick your boot into when it's -20. There's a much shorter window where that kind of thing would happen, around April/May when the snow is melting, so I must have been too busy with final exams to ever come across it.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The filthy weather in Ottawa today got me wondering about the word "soaker", a noun meaning the result when one steps into deep water/slush or to puts a foot through ice such that cold water/slush/snow comes in over the top of your boot. As a child, I called this "a soaker", as in "I got a soaker!" or "Careful or you'll get a soaker". Everybody used the term and all the kids and parents knew what it meant. So, my question is how common is this? Is there anything particularly Canadian about it? I must admit I haven't heard it for years.

We don't have a word for that here, though that may be because the situation doesn't arise all that often. Definitely this winter though!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

I'm not sure if there's a better thread for this so...

I'm a bit curious about the Anglophone population of Quebec City. The story usually focuses on the larger Anglo population in Montreal and the subsequent mass exodus starting in the '70s. All I've read about it in QC is that it was smaller, albeit significant (a lot of Old Quebec's buildings were built by the English) but that over time, the Anglos in Quebec City were assimilated into the Francophone population.

I'm curious of why things played out differently in Quebec City. In Montreal, rather than assimilating, Anglos left, or defiantly stood their ground, perhaps learning French over time, but still speaking in English at home. Was it simply that QC's Anglos were smaller in number, perhaps more isolated from English Canada? Are there any "Anglo" strongholds in the city, like Montreal's Mile-End?

The anglo community did not really assimilate to a significant degree in Quebec City. Though some did, it is true - but some did and do in Montreal too even. The anglo community in Quebec City mostly declined due to outmigration, either to Montreal or other parts of Canada and the U.S. And this outmigration began and reached it peak long before the Quiet Revolution and the rise of separatism.

There are no true anglo enclaves in Quebec City as there are in Montreal, but historically there were quite a few in the posh inner city district of Sillery (formerly a separate city - and kind of a Westmount or Rosedale type of place). Sillery is almost entirely francophone today.

The largest concentration of anglos in the Quebec City area today is the mountain-exurban town of Shannon, about 45 minutes NW of the city I think. It's historically anglo but today they'd be about 15% of the population. It's also near the military base of Valcartier so this likely helps sustain the anglo population a bit too.

People from Quebec City will correct me if I am wrong here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

NB numbers since they're being discussed:

Knowledge of Official Languages (New Brunswick)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 418K/73K/238K/480
2006: 405K/74K/240K/765
2011: 427K/66K/246K/960

Knowledge of Official Languages (New Brunswick)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 57%/10%/33%/0%
2006: 56%/10%/33%/0%
2011: 58%/9%/33%/0%

Unilingual anglophone growth is outpacing bilingual growth in NB as unilingual Francophones steadily disappear from the province.

Knowledge of Official Languages (Moncton CMA)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 58,980/2,845/49,930/35
2006: 60,490/5,270/58,195/100
2011: 68,060/4,650/63,240/190

Knowledge of Official Languages (Saint John CMA)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 108,670/180/15,225/140
2006: 101,455/150/19,065/205
2011: 107,145/165/18,695/280

Knowledge of Official Languages (Fredericton CMA)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 63,395/245/14,800/85
2006: 66,130/385/18,380/175
2011: 72,895/330/20,020/270

Bilingual growth outpaces unilingual anglophone growth in Moncton. Saint John is Saint John. Unilingual anglophone growth outpaces bilingual growth in Fredericton. All three CMAs had anglophone areas added to the CMAs for 2016 so there should be a slight increase there, most noticeably in Fredericton. The non-official category will see a bump due to the Syrian refugees.

Kent County, which is a central Acadien area, is seeing an interesting development:

Knowledge of Official Languages (Kent County)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER
1996: 5,275/4,120/22,275/35
2006: 6,115/4,160/20,690/40
2011: 6,375/2,790/21,165/15

Unilingual anglophones are replacing unilingual francophones while bilingual numbers decrease slightly. Unilingual francophone numbers are decreasing throughout Northern NB where the vast majority of them would be elderly. Bilingual numbers aren't entirely making up for their loss, proportionally speaking.

Yeah, the francophone population of NB seems headed for an extended period of decline. This is not something that I would have forecast a couple of decades ago, as it was always the strongest francophone community outside Quebec, with an assimilation rate of 10% whereas every other province was at least at 40% (some way more).

But now there are a number of factors hitting the community hard

- high francophone outmigration from the province in general, but especially from the mainly francophone north.

- a major shift of the francophone population in NB from the low assimilation areas of the north (in some areas the assimilation rate is positive, which means anglos are becoming francophones) to the south where assimilation rates are more similar to those observed in Ontario. For example, in spite of all the talk about Moncton as a happening place for francophones, their assimilation rate there is still about 20-25%. Way higher than in Caraquet, Tracadie or Edmundston.