Average price of Metro Vancouver home now almost $663,000, above pre-recession levels

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by whatnext

When my parents arrived here it was with very little money, their skills and the promise of jobs.

As did my grandparents, who were refugees from behind the Iron Curtain (and escaped over a mountain pass, much like the Sound of Music). Yet over time my grandfather built his fortune in Vancouver by being a successful engineer, and moved up to a high-end home in Point Grey and later West Vancouver. So I suppose he contributed to the price crunch anyway, even though he didn't bring a fortune with him. Just by moving here, he contributed to the trend...

What is the difference between my grandparents who arrived from East Europe in the 50's, or my wife's family who arrived from Hong Kong in the 70's, or today's immigrants?

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by Phusion

How many times do you have to be told? The problem is rich foreigners coming here in droves, buying real estate all over metro Vancouver (no matter how high the price is, they continue to buy, thus keeping the housing market red hot) and then they don't even live in the houses, they live back in their home country. Does that seem like the way a normal housing market should work? NOPE

You keep saying that, but in my grandparents' neighbourhoods in Pt. Grey and West Van in the 70's and White Rock in the 80's, it was already the way you describe. Half of the houses were foreign-owned and empty for much of the year.

Now all that's changed is that more of the houses in City of Vancouver fall into that category. But guess what, there are also a lot more houses outside of the City of Vancouver available to buy today than there were in those days, and they are still at a lower price class.

Bottom line is, you're not entitled to live in a rich neighbourhood. There are areas of the Lower Mainland that are affordable. Maybe less of them are in the area you desire; but it has always been that way.

[SpongeG]

one difference is today immigrants arriving have to have money to even get here - my parents came over in the 60's with very little money but they got in really easily as immigration was much easier and they built up life from that point

getting and starting a job was easier - maybe cause they were from a commonwealth country and at that time it was just easier and people didn't say oh you don't have "Canadian experience" which is a common issue/complaint amongst immigrants today...

I have a few friends whjo are trying to get in - one is here as a student going to school and he wants to stay but it sounds like a problem - he would need a job offer and the company would have to sponsor him which i really don't think will happen unfortunately for him - and the other option is to pay something like $300,000 towards an investment or business that he would have to set up and he doesn't have that kind of money or if he does he doesn't want to lose all his life savings...

he is from seoul and finds vancouver ridiculously expensive when it comes to housing - he sold his condo back there and even with that he couldn't afford to get a place here with what he has and what he is expected to pay out to immigrate

[Yume-sama]

That doesn't really mean much. If I sold my condo in Vancouver I couldn't afford a condo in New York, Paris, London, Hong Kong, or Tokyo across the board

If someone sells their house in Nowhere, Manitoba they still couldn't afford a house in Winnipeg, for the same price.

It's not particularly surprising that in South Korea, where the average person is earning $21,000, that they couldn't outright afford a condo outside of South Korea.

Similarly someone in Zimbabwe couldn't sell their hut and move to Abbotsford.

Have them move to Canada, earn the cost of living appropriate to the area (how salaries are determined), and they could very likely afford it.

That doesn't mean they can afford a luxury house, in a waterfront neighbourhood. But, nobody is outright *entitled* to that.

And you *still* couldn't afford it if they cost less, because the cost of living in the whole city would cost less, and the salaries would be less, and it'd still even out.

There's not a whole lot of economic common sense in this thread. And "it's not fair" is not a compelling argument.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Think of the eastward gentrification sweep we're discussing in Is Fraser the New Main thread. Folks raised on the westside can't afford to live in that neighbourhood any longer. They take cash from mum and dad and move east of Main, rather than go out to Coquitlam etc. The older folks selling those Dunabr houses are probably downsizing to a condo here and one in PS or Phoenix.

But that is how it always has worked and how it always will work.

Someone on Dunbar who sells to buy on Fraser. And that person on Fraser will buy something else and the cycle continues and continues on and on. There is nothing wrong with that is the bases behind inflation. It happens everywhere in society for everything we do.

It has always been hard to jump onto the real estate merry-go-round. Not sure how many generations you go back in the area. But even your parents or grandparents would have struggled to own a home. My grandparents bought a home on capital hill in Burnaby back in 1930 for $300. They struggled to pay the $1 a month mortgage. My parents struggled to pay their mortgage. The thing is once your on the real estate merry-go-round. It is much easier to move from one to the other. So long has your not jumping all over the place.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

one difference is today immigrants arriving have to have money to even get here - my parents came over in the 60's with very little money but they got in really easily as immigration was much easier and they built up life from that point

getting and starting a job was easier - maybe cause they were from a commonwealth country and at that time it was just easier and people didn't say oh you don't have "Canadian experience" which is a common issue/complaint amongst immigrants today...

I have a few friends whjo are trying to get in - one is here as a student going to school and he wants to stay but it sounds like a problem - he would need a job offer and the company would have to sponsor him which i really don't think will happen unfortunately for him - and the other option is to pay something like $300,000 towards an investment or business that he would have to set up and he doesn't have that kind of money or if he does he doesn't want to lose all his life savings...

he is from seoul and finds vancouver ridiculously expensive when it comes to housing - he sold his condo back there and even with that he couldn't afford to get a place here with what he has and what he is expected to pay out to immigrate

The jobs were somewhat easier because a lot of jobs back in the '60s were of the manufacturing type. Which really didn't require a lot of skilled labour. But just physical labour. But they were good paying jobs.

The problem is most jobs today that are decent paying require post secondary schooling. Even a blue collar job requires going to school to get a good wage. The days of just finding a company and working your way to a good wage by learning on the job and pretty much gone.

[Zassk]

Since when does an average wage buy a detached home in the City of Vancouver? Not since the post-war boom ended. My parents certainly couldn't afford that in the late 60's when they were first-time buyers. They had to look in Richmond, and their peers had to look in places like North Van District or Abbotsford.

55k can most definitely buy you a place to live... not a detached house perhaps, and not in Kits perhaps, but those have never been within reach of first-time buyers in cities of this size. The average wage buys you a house in the far-flung outskirts or an apartment somewhat closer in. This is not new. I hesitate to blame any foreign investors for this.

[dubsH]

Originally Posted by Phusion

Salaries are way below the cost of living. The average income in Metro Van is around 55k yet its the most expensive region in Canada to buy a home. That doesn't add up. If Canada had laws to stop or limit wealthy foreigners from coming to metro Van and buying houses, the only potential buyers in the region would be those that work and live here, and they wouldn't or COULDN'T pay these ridiculous prices on houses, thus bringing the prices down. There. End of discussion. I can clearly see some people in this thread are getting emotional because they think foreigners are being treated as scapegoats or enemies and that has touched a nerve. But its just simple economics.

Your second last sentence summarizes exactly why most of the points you brought up are moot. What if they WEREN'T foreigners but just rich people who happened to move to Vancouver from other parts of Canada? You're inferring that this is OK then.

It's not simple economics because you are simplifying that wealthy foreigners are the only variable that is causing housing prices to inflate.

Again, why do people think they are entitled to live in a nice house in a desirable location (anywhere) in (Metro) Vancouver? I'm not a wealthy foreigner, but if I wanted a house on the West Side, I would damn well get a job (or an education that precedes getting that job) that can support that (and if I can't - then I'm not living within my means). If $55K is the average wage (not household income) and I can't afford the dream house everybody wants, then I would move to somewhere where I could actually afford it (middle of nowhere, Newfoundland). That's simple economics for you.

[delboy]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The situation is more complex than that. The price of that house may have tripled in 15 years, but in that time:

- the cost of borrowing has halved (source)
- your income tax dropped by a quarter (source) and sales tax dropped 2%
- the dollar's value dropped by a quarter (source) but, on average over all industries, wages increased by a third (source)

So most likely you have more buying power today than you had in 1995, even if you were working the same job position the whole time.

bollocks....my buying power has greatly declined. Based on being in the workforce since the early 80's.

[SpongeG]

the point is its overpriced thanks to people with money buying it up and keeping prices up

like iv'e used an example before - my parents friends owned a house just off commercial drive they bought it in the 80's for $125,000 they did some renos and due to having to move sold it off in the early 90's for around $200,000 they made a decent profit - the house today would go on the market for $875,000 - its a gorgeous restored character house

had they kept the house they would have been in great shape to move anywhere in the city today

and that is the case with lots of people who bought back than - even in teh 90's - i worked with a guy he bought his condo in yaletown in the late 90's for $190,000 sold it a few years ago for $320,000 i think it was like thats kaching - he moved to abbotsford and was able to have a nicer pick of places

so we have people have come here from better real estate markets buying the city up cause to them its cheap and in doing so over the last 15 years for sure, have pushed prices up

so someone in vancouver could do the same thing sell up here such and move to a place like regina and live like a king for what they had here or just rent it out as an investment

[delboy]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Since when does an average wage buy a detached home in the City of Vancouver? Not since the post-war boom ended. My parents certainly couldn't afford that in the late 60's when they were first-time buyers. They had to look in Richmond, and their peers had to look in places like North Van District or Abbotsford.

55k can most definitely buy you a place to live... not a detached house perhaps, and not in Kits perhaps, but those have never been within reach of first-time buyers in cities of this size. The average wage buys you a house in the far-flung outskirts or an apartment somewhat closer in. This is not new. I hesitate to blame any foreign investors for this.

you dont give up do you. Vancouver has gone from expensive to unattainable for much of the population. It takes more of one income now to own than ever before, accept it and move on.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by delboy

bollocks....my buying power has greatly declined. Based on being in the workforce since the early 80's.

Same here in Paris. Middle class wages have remained stagnant for 10 years,
the cost of properties of Paris "intra-muros" is still climbing up, up, up despite the recession, the middle class is being eroded, as it seems to be most everywhere, and buying power for all but the most affluent is getting ground down. It's alarming ... (to say the least)

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by cabotp

The jobs were somewhat easier because a lot of jobs back in the '60s were of the manufacturing type. Which really didn't require a lot of skilled labour. But just physical labour. But they were good paying jobs.

The problem is most jobs today that are decent paying require post secondary schooling. Even a blue collar job requires going to school to get a good wage. The days of just finding a company and working your way to a good wage by learning on the job and pretty much gone.

yeah thats what i was saying - you could show up one day get a job and make a nice life here - nowadays you need money and a degree and even than that doesn't guarantee squat since most canadian jobs won't even recognize a foreign degree and the sure way of getting into Canada is money you promise to start up a business or invest and you are in - which is an option for my friend but he doesn't want to do that as it would wipe him out and be too risky so he hopes he can get a job to sponsor him to stay or he can get a work permit and see how long he can stay that way

my parents landed with what they had in their luggage - their story was this - they are from south africa - friends/coworkers of my dad moved to canada and the states (montreal and portland) and encouraged him to follow - anyway they made the plan to move to toronto - they sold up in SA and got on the ship - got to montreal on a friday, had made plans to spend the weekend with a friend and than go the next week via train to Toronto and look for a job, anyway my dad saw a job in the paper on a saturday, applied for it and had an interview the next week and started within the week and never even got to Toronto

that sort of thing would never happen now

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Same here in Paris. Middle class wages have remained stagnant for 10 years,
the cost of properties of Paris "intra-muros" is still climbing up, up, up despite the recession, the middle class is being eroded, as it seems to be most everywhere, and buying power for all but the most affluent is getting ground down. It's alarming ... (to say the least)

it's part of the plan the plan to eliminate the middle class and have the very elite rich and the very average working poor... part of the whole NWO thing if you know of it been hearing that theory for years goes along with the idea that the elite or illuminati masons whatever they are think the world is overpopulated and want to bring it down a few billion...

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Phusion

First of all, yes that would be ok because the chances of it happening are not as high. Canada is only a country of 33 million people. A large influx of wealthy people from other parts of the country isn't very likely. Secondly, the operative word there is MOVE here. If they moved here it would be fine, but these wealthy foreigners are simply buying up houses here in metro Van and keeping them as assets. Never living in them, or anything, thus not contributing anything to the local economy. Yet they buy these houses which keeps the market hot, thus raising prices everywhere due to the fact that houses are still selling in metro van.

Blaming a foreigner for the problems here just stinks of racism. I'm not saying they haven't had an impact. I just feel the impact isn't as big as you might think.

But I firmly believe the biggest impact has been from people building illegal suites. It has been from people splitting a mortgage in a group which allows more incomes against one mortgage. It has been from families who were willing to have both parents working or who had no kids which allowed both parents to work giving a higher household income. It is from people willing to give up a lot of luxuries just to get that house and price someone else out.

So to blame only the foreigners when there are many other factors at play is plain wrong.

Oh I'm white by the way so don't think I'm a pissed off foreigner. Also don't forget at some point your relatives were foreigners and where given the same treatment by the locals just as you are giving foreigners now. Unless your Native Indian then you were here before everyone else.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

it's part of the plan the plan to eliminate the middle class and have the very elite rich and the very average working poor... part of the whole NWO thing if you know of it been hearing that theory for years goes along with the idea that the elite or illuminati masons whatever they are think the world is overpopulated and want to bring it down a few billion...

Even if that maybe. It is someones own choices that will decide their destiny. Blaming others for their problems doesn't help the problem.

As someone who already owns a part of real estate. I maybe self centred for saying this. But I'd love to see the prices keep rising and really don't care if people are priced out. It isn't my problem. Also if enough people can't afford the price then when it is sold whenever that is the price would drop accordingly.

[dubsH]

Originally Posted by Phusion

First of all, yes that would be ok because the chances of it happening are not as high. Canada is only a country of 33 million people. A large influx of wealthy people from other parts of the country isn't very likely. Secondly, the operative word there is MOVE here. If they moved here it would be fine, but these wealthy foreigners are simply buying up houses here in metro Van and keeping them as assets. Never living in them, or anything, thus not contributing anything to the local economy. Yet they buy these houses which keeps the market hot, thus raising prices everywhere due to the fact that houses are still selling in metro van.

lol, sounds like resentment more than anything.

Earlier in the thread (or some other "blame every rich foreign person thread"), someone mentioned the amount of foreign-owned investment in Vancouver's housing market was somewhere in the ballpark of less than 5%. Because you say it's OK for wealthy people to move to Vancouver and purchase property to live here (and in the process raising the prices for EVERYBODY), then you should also have no problem with "these wealthy foreigners" who plan on staying in Vancouver purchasing houses to live in. The more enlightened members who post here should be able to tell you that this number is much higher than "these wealthy foreigners" who buy simply to invest.

Don't forget that "these wealthy foreigners" are purchasing property that you couldn't have purchased anyway (ie. you were never going to get that $2 million mansion that was worth $1 million 20 years ago), and that before their arrival, the exchange was just between other wealthy people. They just don't happen to be foreigners, so it's OK, right?

Originally Posted by delboy

you dont give up do you. Vancouver has gone from expensive to unattainable for much of the population. It takes more of one income now to own than ever before, accept it and move on.

I agree that this is a problem, but where has this NOT been a problem for any place that hasn't grown significantly in the past "x" amount of years? Calgary used to be fairly "affordable", and now it has the third highest-priced major housing market in Canada (or it did prior to the recession). When you have a desirable place to live (or work), then you are bound to have higher demand.

There seems to be a notion that because you have lived in Vancouver longer (or, for others, because you're not a "wealthy foreigner") that you should somehow be immune to effects of rising housing prices that is occurring EVERYWHERE in the world (in desirable places to live). I understand it's always easier just to blame other people, even if that's the reason how you came to be in Vancouver (ie. your grandparents purchased a house 60 years ago when they moved here, effectively pricing out someone poorer at that time and "robbing them" of their dream house).

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Zassk

..What is the difference between my grandparents who arrived from East Europe in the 50's, or my wife's family who arrived from Hong Kong in the 70's, or today's immigrants?...

As I've mentioned several times (thus I'm bolding it) the difference is those people you refer to came to Canada to make a better life for their families with the intent of staying here, paying taxes here, and participating fully in Canadian society.

Honestly, I'm a bit frustrated by those who seem to be deliberately ignoring the difference between someone who immigrates with the intent of settling here, and some using the country as a temporary bolt-hole or insurance policy.

Originally Posted by dubsH

lol, sounds like resentment more than anything.

Earlier in the thread (or some other "blame every rich foreign person thread"), someone mentioned the amount of foreign-owned investment in Vancouver's housing market was somewhere in the ballpark of less than 5%. Because you say it's OK for wealthy people to move to Vancouver and purchase property to live here (and in the process raising the prices for EVERYBODY), then you should also have no problem with "these wealthy foreigners" who plan on staying in Vancouver purchasing houses to live in. The more enlightened members who post here should be able to tell you that this number is much higher than "these wealthy foreigners" who buy simply to invest.

Don't forget that "these wealthy foreigners" are purchasing property that you couldn't have purchased anyway (ie. you were never going to get that $2 million mansion that was worth $1 million 20 years ago), and that before their arrival, the exchange was just between other wealthy people. They just don't happen to be foreigners, so it's OK, right?

I agree that this is a problem, but where has this NOT been a problem for any place that hasn't grown significantly in the past "x" amount of years? Calgary used to be fairly "affordable", and now it has the third highest-priced major housing market in Canada (or it did prior to the recession). When you have a desirable place to live (or work), then you are bound to have higher demand.

There seems to be a notion that because you have lived in Vancouver longer (or, for others, because you're not a "wealthy foreigner") that you should somehow be immune to effects of rising housing prices that is occurring EVERYWHERE in the world (in desirable places to live). I understand it's always easier just to blame other people, even if that's the reason how you came to be in Vancouver (ie. your grandparents purchased a house 60 years ago when they moved here, effectively pricing out someone poorer at that time and "robbing them" of their dream house).

Again, please re-read the article. I'm not sure where you're pulling the 5% figure from. Those houses in Dunbar were not $1 million ten years ago, they were close to $500k, so there's been a huge run-up. And note that nowhere else in Canada has there been such a massive run-up in prices despite large scale immigration. Indeed, find a place in North America with the rapid rise to unsustainability with no economic underpinnings to justify it. New York has the status of world financial capital, San Francisco centre of North America's high tech, Vancouver, not so much. Neither is the climate in Vancouver so wonderful (look out the window)that it would attract such a huge run-up.

[Yume-sama]

Extremely few people would even consider buying a $500k house 10 years ago. You were quite wealthy if you had that. 10 years ago we sold a house in Calgary for $130,000 that recently re-sold for $475,000. It's a 60 year old bungalow in an established neighbourhood. Now, the people who bought it for $130,000 didn't get rich off of it. With Real Estate you can generally only move laterally. With that $475,000 they'll only be able to buy something similar. There is also a difference in the amount of money people make from 10 years ago. Both cities have changed dramatically.

This is not something unique to Vancouver. Real estate prices have gone up all across Canada, and Vancouver happens to be the most stable market through the recession.

And the TOTAL foreign ownership is estimated to be at 5% now in Metro Vancouver, as has been discussed on this forum quite extensively in the past.

So, while 50% of people buying multi-million dollar homes MIGHT be foreign *now*, that doesn't affect the overall number (in the millions) percentage wise too much.

It is *very* hard for such an overall minority to affect property values at *every* level through-out the region, and the entire Country which has trended upwards.

[SpikePhanta]

Originally Posted by Phusion

Calgary's housing market is still cheaper than metro Van's, and guess what, Calgary's average income is 80k+.

That doesn't make a lick of sense.

They have all the space in the world.

Anyways a little funny story, My friend's family owned an apartment in Hong kong, they sold it and bought a very nice house in near Kerrisdale. Of course this was like 4-5 years ago.
went from a little apartment in HK to decent detached house in Vancouver!