Portland Transit | TriMet/Mass Transit News

[bvpcvm]

My dream is that the Orange line gets extended past Union Station, roughly along Naito, past the North Pearl, Riverscape apts, then west along Vaughn to Montgomery Park. No Steel Bridge issues, and we could serve the second-biggest office building in town.

[RED_PDXer]

Originally Posted by davehogan

The Steel Bridge is at capacity. No more trains. What they can do is have some Yellows turn Orange, but they can't move enough extra trains across the bridge to merge the Yellow and the Orange yet.

I think the upgrades that were part of the CRC would have improved that as well, but for now they can't fit any more trains on the Steel Bridge.

The upgrades to Steel Bridge are going to happen regardless. That's what I got from some of the recent press releases and articles about TriMet's planned track rehabs over the next few years.

Also, as I understand it, all yellow line trains will continue on as Orange line trains. Only a couple orange line trains will not continue north in the peak hours because the ridership north of union station isn't anticipated to be as strong. Continuing four orange line trains north of steel bridge per hour has no effect on steel bridge capacity since those trains would be crossing anyway as yellow.

As an almost daily max rider, I notice lots of congestion today. I think it's mostly the result of schedule reliability, or lack thereof. If you look at on-time performance, it's abysmal for a light rail train in exclusive right-of-way. MAX is hardly better than the expansive bus system that operates almost entirely in mixed traffic... TriMet's Performance Dashboard

[65MAX]

So, if ALL Yellow line trains continue on as Orange line trains to Milwaukie, why does Trimet have to change the color midway? Sounds like a whole lot of confusion for no reason. Just make the shorter Milwaukie to Union Station trains Orange and all the others would be Yellow. Simple and easy to understand for everybody.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

Yes, that would definitely increase capacity, but the cost would be very high and given the new Tilikum Crossing cost $134 million, it wouldn't be that much more money to just build a new MAX crossing for the north end of downtown.

Then, of course, you still have the capacity-killing short blocks downtown (trains can only be two cars long) and the hundred or so streetlights that slow trains to a crawl. Until all of those issues are resolved (i.e. going underground), we're doomed to have a no-growth MAX system, regardless of how many new lines get built.

There will definitely come a time where the city needs to address the north side of the river with a possibility of a new light rail bridge on that side.

The two car limit will always be an issue, though if TriMet is able to run more trains, then this becomes less of an issue as the metro grows.

I have to disagree with the speed at which the trains go through downtown because the need to go through downtown via rail probably isn't that big of an issue for most people. More often than not, someplace downtown is the primary destination. Plus with the timing of the lights, the light rail trains do tend to move through downtown at a similar speed cars are able to get through downtown. Though I have heard of some serious issues with trains at Pioneer Courthouse Square and down by PSU where the streetcar crosses over.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

The two car limit will always be an issue, though if TriMet is able to run more trains, then this becomes less of an issue as the metro grows.

That's the problem, they CAN'T run more trains because the street lights restrict how many trains can get through an intersection during any given hour. It's not like with cars, which can go through a light with a dozen other cars before it changes back to red. A train has to first wait till the track ahead is clear, then wait till the light changes to green to proceed. As well as watch for pedestrians or cars that cross the tracks when the train has a green light. It's very difficult to reliably accommodate more than one train every 3-4 minutes, which translates to an absolute maximum of 15-20 trains per hour, and that's only if everything is running smoothly.

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I have to disagree with the speed at which the trains go through downtown because the need to go through downtown via rail probably isn't that big of an issue for most people. More often than not, someplace downtown is the primary destination. Plus with the timing of the lights, the light rail trains do tend to move through downtown at a similar speed cars are able to get through downtown. Though I have heard of some serious issues with trains at Pioneer Courthouse Square and down by PSU where the streetcar crosses over.

No, cars can get through downtown at an average speed of around 12 mph, while a MAX train or streetcar averages about 6 mph, half the speed. Cars and trains may be able to move at similar speeds, but cars don't have to stop every few blocks to pick up and drop off passengers.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

That's the problem, they CAN'T run more trains because the street lights restrict how many trains can get through an intersection during any given hour. It's not like with cars, which can go through a light with a dozen other cars before it changes back to red. A train has to first wait till the track ahead is clear, then wait till the light changes to green to proceed. As well as watch for pedestrians or cars that cross the tracks when the train has a green light. It's very difficult to reliably accommodate more than one train every 3-4 minutes, which translates to an absolute maximum of 15-20 trains per hour, and that's only if everything is running smoothly.

So we are looking at 30-40 trains depending on the general math. Currently we have 12 trains running on the Red/Blue Lines through downtown at rush hour; and there are currently 8 trains running on the Green/Yellow Lines through downtown during rush hour. Good chance is the Orange line will also be running 4 trains during rush hour which will give that line 12 trains as well.

With that in mind, Portland can expand the number of trains and lines with the current routes through downtown by 3-8 trains based on the timing you gave. Though I will say, I would like to see where that information came from with how many trains the current lines could handle.

Both routes could handle either more trains to their current lines or could handle adding about 2 more lines before needing to look for a solution for more trains.

No, cars can get through downtown at an average speed of around 12 mph, while a MAX train or streetcar averages about 6 mph, half the speed. Cars and trains may be able to move at similar speeds, but cars don't have to stop every few blocks to pick up and drop off passengers.

That is because like buses, trains have to stop to load and unload. Cars going to a destination downtown also has to park their vehicle which isn't averaged into the average speed.

Basically what you are calling for is a train line that basically avoids downtown or only has a stop or two downtown so that people could go from one side of the metro to the other side. The problem with that is how many people would actually use that line to go from someplace that is probably suburban to another place that is suburban? Also, which route would be the route that would accomplish this? What would the ridership be to help justify the cost? And would it be easier and cheaper to do an westside 205 bypass to help with people making that commute? Which a highway like that could also have a rail line added to it if their is that kind of demand, which would eliminate the need for the train to run through downtown.

[bvpcvm]

I don't see where you get 30-40 trains, Urbanlife. And I don't think 65MAX is proposing anything; his point is just that we're at capacity. What we can/will do about it is a separate question.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

I don't see where you get 30-40 trains, Urbanlife. And I don't think 65MAX is proposing anything; his point is just that we're at capacity. What we can/will do about it is a separate question.

We have two separate track lines through downtown, which he said the city can only handle 15-20 trains per hour. This would mean the north/south route and the east/west route would equal 30-40 trains, and once the Orange line opens we will be running 24 trains through downtown during rush hour. This would mean the system could still handle 6-16 more trains, which would mean it is currently not at capacity and still has plenty of room to grow with either more trains added to current lines or new lines to be built.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

I don't see where you get 30-40 trains, Urbanlife. And I don't think 65MAX is proposing anything; his point is just that we're at capacity. What we can/will do about it is a separate question.

From watching Portland and Trimte's leadership for a few decades now, it looks like they are just punting the issue of grade separation down the line by never addressing it. Maybe in 50 years someone will wake up one day and realize that downtown needs additional capacity in an underground.

Originally Posted by urbanlife

We have two separate track lines through downtown, which he said the city can only handle 15-20 trains per hour. This would mean the north/south route and the east/west route would equal 30-40 trains, and once the Orange line opens we will be running 24 trains through downtown during rush hour. This would mean the system could still handle 6-16 more trains, which would mean it is currently not at capacity and still has plenty of room to grow with either more trains added to current lines or new lines to be built.

Wouldn't that require eliminating all or most of the buses from the transit mall downtown?

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

From watching Portland and Trimte's leadership for a few decades now, it looks like they are just punting the issue of grade separation down the line by never addressing it. Maybe in 50 years someone will wake up one day and realize that downtown needs additional capacity in an underground.



Wouldn't that require eliminating all or most of the buses from the transit mall downtown?

Maybe, maybe not. That is a question for someone who has a better understanding of the timing issues in downtown.

In 50 years, Portland might be ready for a subway line or elevated line through downtown, but that depends on the growth of the city over the next 25 years.

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

That's the problem, they CAN'T run more trains because the street lights restrict how many trains can get through an intersection during any given hour.

Also an issue. They can move through the light about every 2-3 minutes when you count station stops. Even with upgrades to the Steel Bridge it's not going to handle higher frequency and more lines with more capacity. It's one or the other.

In the Central City Plan the idea of putting the MAX underground was mentioned, and it sounded like a 2030-2040 idea. I think the priorities were HCT to Vancouver, the SW Corridor, Powell corridor, and then a MAX tunnel from the Banfield to the Robertson.

The CRC at the time was in there first, so maybe that screwed up the rest of the plans. Or it sped up the necessity for the tunnel.

[maccoinnich]

Here's the Metro HCT plan map, which dates from 2009. Near-Term Regional Priority Corridors are: SW Corridor; Powell-Division; and for some inexplicable reason, some kind of upgrade to the WES corridor. Those should all be done by the middle of the next decade. After that, the next Phase Regional Priority Corridors include a couple that make sense to me, such as extending the Orange Line to Oregon City, and a new Washington County line following the Sunset Highway. Extending the Yellow line to Vancouver was assumed at that point to be part of the CRC, which is obviously dead now, but it still seems to be an ambition of Portland's.

Once we get all those done, we'll be finished building lines into Portland. All the remaining lines in the study are suburb-suburb, or smaller extensions of existing lines. Once we've reached that point, I think looking at a tunnel through Portland will begin to make sense as the next project. A timeframe of 2030-2040 sounds reasonable to me.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Here's the Metro HCT plan map, which dates from 2009. Near-Term Regional Priority Corridors are: SW Corridor; Powell-Division; and for some inexplicable reason, some kind of upgrade to the WES corridor. Those should all be done by the middle of the next decade.

The map says HCT upgrades "in the vicinity of" the WES, not an upgrade of WES itself. To me, I read that as a conversion of the WES corridor, or a part of it, from commuter rail to light rail. That should have been done to begin with, IMO.

[urbanlife]

I would like to see the WES upgraded to another light rail line instead of what is currently is so that it could be hooked in with the current light rail system and run downtown. I never understood making a suburb to suburb line be another type of train rather than a light rail train.

[hat]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I would like to see the WES upgraded to another light rail line instead of what is currently is so that it could be hooked in with the current light rail system and run downtown. I never understood making a suburb to suburb line be another type of train rather than a light rail train.

WES is not cost effective. According to this, it may have something to do with the cost of operating on a freight line. I don't know if getting rid of WES and running MAX trains on this would still incur similar cost just because of ROW. Still, I would love to see MAX trains running on this line to Portland as well (with a couple added stops).

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by hat

WES is not cost effective. According to this, it may have something to do with the cost of operating on a freight line. I don't know if getting rid of WES and running MAX trains on this would still incur similar cost just because of ROW. Still, I would love to see MAX trains running on this line to Portland as well (with a couple added stops).

The whole WES seemed like a half@ssed attempt to adding a rail line without committing to a new light rail line. It was an interesting idea, but I have always been skeptical of it and have never been a fan of using passenger trains on shared freight lines over a new light rail line through that area of the westside.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

The whole WES seemed like a half@ssed attempt to adding a rail line without committing to a new light rail line.

I agree with everything you're saying in your posts above.

To me, WES seemed like it was designed with numbers in mind, rather than riders. I'm sure it looked good on paper, but the idea of a forced transfer in the burbs was ignorant. WES should have been light rail, beginning either downtown or on the east side and then crossing through downtown. The idea that people would want to transfer to WES when they may have already had to transfer once just to get to WES was downright ignorant. I suspect ridership was lower than it should have been because, by design, WES is inconvenient.

It doesn't matter how good something looks on paper if it doesn't look good to the people it's being built for.

[dubu]

having three lines using the tunnel on the west side would be even better. no more car dependent there if that happend

[colganc]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

I agree with everything you're saying in your posts above.

To me, WES seemed like it was designed with numbers in mind, rather than riders. I'm sure it looked good on paper, but the idea of a forced transfer in the burbs was ignorant. WES should have been light rail, beginning either downtown or on the east side and then crossing through downtown. The idea that people would want to transfer to WES when they may have already had to transfer once just to get to WES was downright ignorant. I suspect ridership was lower than it should have been because, by design, WES is inconvenient.

It doesn't matter how good something looks on paper if it doesn't look good to the people it's being built for.

From reading the link it doesn't give any details. I would think a shared line would be cheaper since the full cost of the line isn't born by one entitiy. Freight traffic is usually already prohibited during rush hour times because of noise and car traffic delays, meaning I would be surprised if there was a big scheduling conflict or increased pricing due to rail traffic contention.

Maybe there are too many transfers for it to be practical to use? A trip or two to get to the station, a trip to Beaverton Tc, and then a trip or two sfter Beaverton Tc to get to their final destination.

[bvpcvm]

The other big problem with WES is that so many of the stations are in the middle of nowhere. Tigard, and I guess Beaverton, are the only ones really accessible by pedestrians - I mean, you have to cross 217 on foot to get to Washington Square. If they ever turn WES into LRT they better modify the route enough that stations are in reasonable locations.