New Toll Lanes?

[Inman Parker]

What do you all think about this idea? I am having trouble believing that this is going to have any sort of positive effect on traffic flow. Seems like making the current HOV lanes into bus only lanes from the burbs (maybe adding wifi to the buses) would be a much better use, cutting the trip into town in half for most.

[themaguffin]

I think that it's a significant waste of money and will have no real impact.

[shivtim]

And accoriding to the AJC, up to a third of the funding could be from local taxes. That's $300 million that should be going toward transit on the I-75 corridor.

[GTdan]

You guys do know that the I-75 toll lanes will not be like the HOT lanes on I-85 right? They will be reversible lanes that have various connections on I-75 and I-575 which will definitely improve traffic congestion and have a HUGE positive impact... at least for the people willing to pay the toll.

[shivtim]

^They want to spend $1billion to add highway lanes out to the suburbs. Huge NEGATIVE impact.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by shivtim

^They want to spend $1billion to add highway lanes out to the suburbs. Huge NEGATIVE impact.

Huge negative impact on who? Certainly not on the people of Cobb County (and beyond) and the many thousands of commuters there. As with any transportation project, it won't directly benenfit every taxpayer.

[shivtim]

^Huge negative impact on everyone in the region. Study after study after study has shown the negative impacts (on health, environment, land values, etc) of sprawl. Highways in particular are noted for causing urban decay. Building more highway lanes does not reduce congestion. It *increases* traffic through induced demand. This project will have a superficial benefit to some wealthy suburbanites while negatively impacting the region as a whole.

Just a few scholarly sources incase you don't buy my argument

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...65856499000476
"The results strongly support the hypothesis that added lane mileage can induce significant additional travel."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...65856409001293
"road density and urban spatial size have positive and statistically significant effects on travel demand in the US urban areas."

In Atlanta there has been a close relationship between sprawl and miles traveled, and corresponding air pollution:
http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%...0-%20FINAL.pdf
(See especially page 5 and 6)

Negative impact of our traffic on health in Atlanta:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/285/7/897.short
"These data provide support for efforts to reduce air pollution and improve health via reductions in motor vehicle traffic."

[netdragon]

Poorly executed: They were supposed to be HOT lanes, not toll lanes! By outsourcing to a private company, we have to now register to use them even as HOV lanes? That's ridiculous

Originally Posted by GTdan

You guys do know that the I-75 toll lanes will not be like the HOT lanes on I-85 right? They will be reversible lanes that have various connections on I-75 and I-575 which will definitely improve traffic congestion and have a HUGE positive impact... at least for the people willing to pay the toll.

Why can't HOT lanes be reversible? I think when the state is funding so much of the bill, it has the right to tell the private corporation that it needs to allow HOV as well on the same lanes. I think it's ridiculous the state isn't considering it as HOT.

As far as impact, this could have some negative impacts from increased single-family sprawl out past Acworth and in Paulding county, however Cobb County is fully developed so can't sprawl any further. There could be some positive impacts as well because it can lead to a more developed town center, which will make the Cumberland-Town Center corridor potentially more developed. However, I really think toll-only is a bad idea. Furthermore, our money could be better invested on a park-and-ride both in Town Center and Cumberland with light rail in-between. Contrary to popular opinion, most traffic is local and not downtown commuter traffic. That's why the traffic changes substantially at 285.

Originally Posted by shivtim

^They want to spend $1billion to add highway lanes out to the suburbs. Huge NEGATIVE impact.

I agree with you that it will mostly benefit wealthy, though I don't agree that more highway lanes aren't needed to the suburbs. If you think about it, most of the I-75 OTP traffic splits off and either stays on, or goes on I-285. Therefore, I-75 OTP will always need more lanes than ITP or I-285.

However, what I think is being shown is insular thinking and lack of comprehensive vision so common to Georgia lawmakers. There should be a LRT component of this project, especially if they are going to be doing some building out there. There should also be general purpose collectors and other things that have been discussed in the top-end 285 project (perhaps not out in Acworth, but definitely between Cumberland and Town Center).

Definitely missing the boat on making it HOT creates questions. What we really need is lawmakers to get out of planning and to leave that up to the people that know what they are doing. They should express their vision and stop micro-managing.

[netdragon]

As mentioned, with the amount the state taxpayers are paying we have a right to decide that it can be HOT.

Contact the DOT http://www.dot.state.ga.us/misc/Pages/ContactUs.aspx and say that it has to be HOT. Please ask your message to be forwarded to the people making decisions about how the lanes will be used.

What I wrote (please don't copy it word-for-word or it won't be as effective):

The I-75 reversible toll lane private-partnership concept is a departure from the widely accepted original HOT/bus lane proposal because there is no HOV 3 or more carpooler options. That is unacceptable and with only a few exceptions disproportionately benefits suburban sprawl past Acworth and the wealthy. No tax-dollars should be used at all unless it either can be used as HOV lanes as well and to carry busses. Otherwise, it should be completely privately funded. Even loan interest should be privately paid.

Many people are very upset that there will not be an HOV contingent to the project.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by shivtim

^Huge negative impact on everyone in the region. Study after study after study has shown the negative impacts (on health, environment, land values, etc) of sprawl. Highways in particular are noted for causing urban decay. Building more highway lanes does not reduce congestion. It *increases* traffic through induced demand. This project will have a superficial benefit to some wealthy suburbanites while negatively impacting the region as a whole.

Just a few scholarly sources incase you don't buy my argument

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...65856499000476
"The results strongly support the hypothesis that added lane mileage can induce significant additional travel."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...65856409001293
"road density and urban spatial size have positive and statistically significant effects on travel demand in the US urban areas."

In Atlanta there has been a close relationship between sprawl and miles traveled, and corresponding air pollution:
http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%...0-%20FINAL.pdf
(See especially page 5 and 6)

Negative impact of our traffic on health in Atlanta:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/285/7/897.short
"These data provide support for efforts to reduce air pollution and improve health via reductions in motor vehicle traffic."

Those are slanted views by "scholars" on a particular side of an issue, not widely-supported facts. There is another whole side to such subjects as this...don't act like there isn't. I tend to agree with your point of view, but I won't act as if it's the only one. That's a little too elitist for me.

One point I simply do not buy is that this project would only benefit wealthy suburbanites. I'm not wealthy and don't live in the suburbs, but I would definitely make use of these lanes if the situation arose. I can't imagine needing wealth in order to pay $7.50 for a breezy ride into the city during rush hour.

[shivtim]

^I understand your point, but I would hardly consider peer-reviewed articles published in highly regarded journals such as JAMA to be "not widely supported by facts." Of course there will always be evidence to the contrary, but the vast majority of scholarly articles I've seen point to the idea that building more highway lanes induces more traffic demand. The subsequent connection between traffic and air pollution and health has been firmly established.

And yes, you're right about wealthy people. The lanes would certainly be used by people of all walks of life. They also should reduce congestion in at least the short term. My thought is that $1 billion would be better used subsidizing transit in the area rather than subsidizing more driving and sprawl (with all of the associated negative impacts on health, environment, urban form, etc).

[netdragon]

My response to the study.. Highways alone are not the cause of urban sprawl and related problems. Instead, having highways as the ONLY form of transportation is the mistake. There needs to be multi-modal transportation all the way from bicycle paths to transit. You can't take highways out of the mix, they fuel growth and even in old European cities highways have been added later. Nevertheless, they should be only part of the options available.

[Chris Creech]

LOL _ in an odd way it's like a BRT system, but just with your own car. Which defeats the whole purpose of getting cars off the road.

I hate this growing notion that transporation has to "pay" for itself. When that's why we pay taxes. These toll projects are just huge money-makers for well connected lobbyists and business interests.

[dante2308]

Congestion is actually worse for the environment and quality of life than relieving congestion. We aren't in an era where Atlanta is about to keep sprawling with new home construction at ridiculous lows and car efficiency standards set to reach 50mpg+ soon so I'm all for transportation projects that ease congestion. (No that's not my entire argument)

I don't think HOT lanes are efficient unless the toll prices are precisely variable for reasons I discussed in another thread.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by dante2308

Congestion is actually worse for the environment and quality of life than relieving congestion. We aren't in an era where Atlanta is about to keep sprawling with new home construction at ridiculous lows and car efficiency standards set to reach 50mpg+ soon so I'm all for transportation projects that ease congestion. (No that's not my entire argument)

I don't think HOT lanes are efficient unless the toll prices are precisely variable for reasons I discussed in another thread.

Aren't the tolls going to vary based on congestion and timing? I think I read that they will...

[cityenthusiast]

maybe instead of consentrating on a car friendly highway projects the whole region should put their tax payer dollars into public transportation since atlanta is 40 years behind in public transportation. Just a thought One can only dream that these suburbanites will get there heads out of there asses and finally realize that public transportation is good for everyone and can help them and their area. But no they think it will bring crime to their neighborhood.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by cityenthusiast

maybe instead of consentrating on a car friendly highway projects the whole region should put their tax payer dollars into public transportation since atlanta is 40 years behind in public transportation. Just a thought One can only dream that these suburbanites will get there heads out of there asses and finally realize that public transportation is good for everyone and can help them and their area. But no they think it will bring crime to their neighborhood.

I think the current issuses with public transit go much deeper than the "crime to their neighborhood" idea. That one still exists, but certainly not to the extent that it did 30 years ago.

[netdragon]

Originally Posted by cityenthusiast

maybe instead of consentrating on a car friendly highway projects the whole region should put their tax payer dollars into public transportation since atlanta is 40 years behind in public transportation. Just a thought One can only dream that these suburbanites will get there heads out of there asses and finally realize that public transportation is good for everyone and can help them and their area. But no they think it will bring crime to their neighborhood.

Wait, you are completely against a mile-wide strip of tarmac?