CHICAGO: Transit Developments

[emathias]

Originally Posted by lawfin

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Also some between Ashalnd and California....that is a ridiculosu stretch without a station....and it used to have 4 stations. There should at least be stops at / near Damen , western if not even a third one.

Same holds for South Side branch.....so many ababndoned stations......why can't we use these statoins as nodes to focus development and density...starting with stations closer to core and moving out....I really think the green line could be leveraged so much better to help spur development in some of the areas of the city that most desperately needs it.
...

Population density in those areas, even with recent growth in the West Loop, is a shadow of what it was back in the 20s and 30s.

Check out this map showing population densities in Chicago in 1930.

[ardecila]

^^ What's your comparison? The West Loop is starting from a heavily industrial base, so I sincerely doubt the residential population was very high in 1930. That map is by square mile, so the area currently known as West Loop is split along the Madison Street line into two different square-mile blocks.

Those blocks, in turn, were heavily weighted by very dense neighborhoods on the far north and far south (Ukranian Village/West Town and Taylor Street). Neither of these neighborhoods are super-dense today, but you bet your ass they were in 1930. If the map had been done in half-mile increments, you would see that the population for 1/2 mile north and south of Madison Street was fairly low.

Point being, the population gain in the former warehouse district of the West Loop has been incredible, even comparing against 1930.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by lawfin

A rebuild of the Halsted stop on the Brown line may make sense perhaps with a pedway undeground to connect to the the New redline apple station

Not possible due the curves and 8 car trains that run on the Brown Line. IIRC, part of the eventual plan for the Circle Line is to re-route the Brown Line underground to link up with the Red/Circle and have it re-emerge immediately after which would also eliminate the curves over Halsted/North Ave.

[ardecila]

That would be one clusterf*ck of a construction project.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by ardecila

That would be one clusterf*ck of a construction project.

I have full faith that if CDOT started today we could see it done by no later than 2046.

[ChicagoChicago]

Kill me now.

There is nothing historically significant about that area. We would be better off declaring eminent domain on the CB2 and Borders. Pay them off and give them the property where the old tracks exist. Going underground would be ridiculously expensive and unnecessary.

[denizen467]

Short of a developer with really ambitious plans involving multiple blocks, the only thing that's gonna fix that area is a tornado strike.

[J_M_Tungsten]

What area exactly are we talking about? North and halsted brown line?

[k1052]

Originally Posted by J_M_Tungsten

What area exactly are we talking about? North and halsted brown line?

Yes, the last phase of the Circle Line plan calls for re-routing it underground to link up with Circle/Red Lines through a huge new underground station under North/Halsted/Clybourn.

[emathias]

Originally Posted by ardecila

^^ What's your comparison? The West Loop is starting from a heavily industrial base, so I sincerely doubt the residential population was very high in 1930. That map is by square mile, so the area currently known as West Loop is split along the Madison Street line into two different square-mile blocks.

Those blocks, in turn, were heavily weighted by very dense neighborhoods on the far north and far south (Ukranian Village/West Town and Taylor Street). Neither of these neighborhoods are super-dense today, but you bet your ass they were in 1930. If the map had been done in half-mile increments, you would see that the population for 1/2 mile north and south of Madison Street was fairly low.

Point being, the population gain in the former warehouse district of the West Loop has been incredible, even comparing against 1930.

The West Loop is not really starting from a "heavy industrial" base, more like light industry, wholesale trading and a lot of warehouses. In between all that, people still lived. You do realize that Greeks actually did live in Greektown for a while, right? This map shows there was definitely residential in what we now call the West Loop or West Gate area in 1920, and even the industrial/warehouse area that is what we might call the Fulton District now had some hooligans living in it.

Here's a more detailed population representation of Chicago, with transit included, from 1914. Sure, that's 16 years before 1930, but you at least get a nicely illustrated example of just how dense population was in the West Loop, industry or not.

Even when families weren't living there, the West Loop and what is now River North were home to thousands upon thousands of men living in what were then called Rooming Houses and what we now usually refer to as SROs.

If you still think I'm wrong about the shift of density, please provide some form of evidence other than merely your word. This population density and shift should surprise no one who is actually familiar with the expansion of Chicago, given that in 1914, the city population was about 2.3 million, and yet the bulk of that population was concentrated in an area of the city a fraction of the size it is now.

[VivaLFuego]

Sort of random, and more transportation than transit related, but you can see a rendering of the new Halsted St bridge in this flyer posted at Ald. Waguespeck's site:
http://ward32.org/wp-content/uploads...tion-Flier.pdf

[J_M_Tungsten]

^^^ great find viva! The bridge and road in that area is awful. It will be worth the 1 year detour

[ardecila]

Not shown in the rendering is the underpass on the west (i.e. north) bank for the riverwalk and bike trail. This was in the early renderings of the bridge. Has it been cancelled?

It would be great to extend the path from its awkward terminus at Hobbie Street. Sending it under Halsted would still leave a grade crossing at Division, but after that it's a straight, easy shot up into the Weed Street area and North/Clybourn.

[spyguy]

http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en...anchcanal.html

Halsted Triangle Plan to guide growth along North Branch Canal
November 18, 2010

An extended riverwalk, new pedestrian bridges to Goose Island and numerous transit and streetscape improvements are among the goals of the "Halsted Triangle Plan" approved today by the Chicago Plan Commission.

...Specific priorities include:

* A continuous walkway along the canal from North Avenue to Division Street
* The development of public plazas on oddly shaped and hard-to-develop parcels
* Widened sidewalks along North Avenue, Halsted Street and Clybourn Avenue
* Improved on-street parking provisions along Kingsbury and other streets
* Improved pedestrian access to the North/Clybourn subway stop
* Development of new public transit connections at Division and Orleans streets
* New traffic signals at the North/ Fremont and Halsted/ Eastman intersections

[lawfin]

Originally Posted by emathias

Population density in those areas, even with recent growth in the West Loop, is a shadow of what it was back in the 20s and 30s.

Check out this map showing population densities in Chicago in 1930.

That is interestijng Emathias, and it just goes to show how much Chicago suffered during its white flight and attendant decline in the 1950-1980 period. Nonetheless I think my point was not to contend that this area had reached a new population zenith; but instead to pint out that given the development in the area over the past 10-12 years a few more stops probably could be used beyond the one at Morgan that is planned....I has forgotten about that one...

Also the green line presents a chance to focus development at "new" un-abandoned stations....start with a few and start with one closer to central area.

I know this sounds like wishful polyannishness but sites along the Red line are all but built out.....Brown line is getting there. The green line has pretty much not experienced any of this development...for myriad of reasons not the least of which is the bombed out nature of some of the neighborhoods through which it passes......but given the dearth of stops along its route it is not surprising this is the case.


I recall a story from my youth....my mother used to tell me back in the 1970's......"you don't want to live near an L line; it brings crime" At the time this was in a nutshell the common wisdom...and in many cases I don't blame my mom for thinking it. In the 1970's and even 80'sd many areas around L stops were less than desirable even along the redline....hell to this day you just have to look at thorndale or morse to see that this idea still holds some truth....though both those stops are better than they were 20 years ago or so.

Instead of being reactive....putting in stops where development has occurred I just wish CTA could be somewhat proactive here and team with zoning / planning and local commerce chambers to drive denser more intense use near such an asset as an L stop. At this point much of the green line is a blank slate....in some case stops are over 1 mile apart (sam holds for some of Redline on south side). Add a few more in nearby neighborhoods and zone appropriately. It will take time...but I think it could be succesful.

I am no CTA or planning expert....just an enthusiastic amateur who care about trying to figure out ways to help the city I was born in and live in get better. Chicago's heavy rail infrastructure is arguably the second best in the nation (DC would be the only rival) I just think it needs to be leveraged better. The disinvestment during the 30+ years after 1950 or so scarred this city....but it is a testament to the city's strength (and after all a city is but the people who live in it) and perseverance that it has not collapsed entirely. Open up parcels to development along the green line to Indians, Pakistanis , Koreans, Mexicans, and whoever are the new immigrant mix that has aided in Chicago's population not collapsing. Allow them to build 2-4 flats as was done in the past so families could bundle their resources together to own homes. Many of these immigrants have very strong familial ties leverage that within a development schema.

Just random thoughts on a tuesday before thanksgiving

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by lawfin

Open up parcels to development along the green line to Indians, Pakistanis , Koreans, Mexicans, and whoever are the new immigrant mix that has aided in Chicago's population not collapsing.

^ Why would Indian and Korean immigrants want to live along the Green Line?

[chiguy123]

Anyone have an update or know the status of those bus priority lanes throughout the loop and other locations throughout the city? Just wondering because I haven't heard anything in a while.

Link back to the article from this summer:
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...-projects.html

[VivaLFuego]

I was by Morse this past Sunday, and was blown away by how... pleasant it is now. Yuppie bars and restaurants. Young couples and even a few young families out and about. I hardly exaggerate when I say that, as of last week, the stretch immediately adjacent to Morse looks like it's only a few years away from serving up artisanal cheeses and laboriously hand-crafted baked goods for the lucrative canine market. It's not just the streetscaping project with tasteful brickwork in the sidewalks and shorter crossing distances. Just in the past few years, the businesses have moved upmarket, and the crackhouse apartment buildings that brought the area down have been substantially cleaned out and cleaned up. For my entire life until now, Morse was always the quintessential open-air drug market, but not anymore. Pretty remarkable considering it occurred during this bum economy and real estate crash that hit Rogers Park particularly hard with bogus condo conversions.

[lawfin]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Why would Indian and Korean immigrants want to live along the Green Line?

The same reason many people are drawn to transit rich areas.....note I am speaking rather hypothetically here. With an increase in stations ie at the abanndoned 39th, 33rd, 29th, 26ht, Cermak and 18th (which if I recall is scheduled to be reopened I think??) and dense enough zoning / proper form based zoning one can imagine a dense mix of use along much of the route. Such a mix of residential....in the form of say 2-4 flats which may leverage some of the strong familial ties among new and 1st generation immigrant generations and commercial which can leverage the seeming proclivity of many with in these groups for business investment and it is not too hard to see that entire well functioning transit served neighborhoods could now stand where grass and gravel and dirt now reign supreme.

[the urban politician]

^ I largely believe the ship has sailed on the chance of waves of immigrants "saving" the south side Green Line 'hoods.

Immigrants almost always take up existing property. They almost never build new communities on their own, at least in the beginning. The problem with Green Line hoods is that there clearly was over-agressive demolition in these areas, and now there is nothing there. What guy from Pakistan with only a few dollars in his pocket is going to build a house in this part of town, especially knowing that most of his brethren live on the far north side or in the suburbs, as well as with the knowledge that this particular part of town has horrific crime issues?

I think the only hope for these areas is for denser, north side hoods to become so expensive to live in that people are forced to foray into the south side to find places to live. I think it can eventually happen as long as downtown's economy stays strong.