Phoenix Development News (3)

[turpentyne]

I remember, at least as of last year, Toronto is getting eaten alive by condo towers. Old neighborhoods are losing little gems for the sake of a new tower, e-v-e-r-y-w-h-e-r-e.

Over 100 towers going up, at last count. More than any other city in North America. Problem is, at that pace, some of the areas are losing charm. There's a spot along the lakefront that is just lifeless towers that weren't there 5 years ago.

I love a tall, dense city, but yikes!

[ASUSunDevil]

Tucson is getting a grocery store in its "Downtown". Come on, Phoenix.

http://azbex.com/long-sought-downtow...ry-on-the-way/

[dtnphx]

Originally Posted by ASUSunDevil

Tucson is getting a grocery store in its "Downtown". Come on, Phoenix.

http://azbex.com/long-sought-downtow...ry-on-the-way/

That's great! Tucson leads on several fronts and downtown Tucson and 4th Ave. areas have a great vibe.

[Jjs5056]

Yea, search for "infill" or "modern condos" and the results will be flooded with Toronto condos. From Google street view, I will say that cities built in this fashion are not the best from a vibrant city perspective. Many look out of proportion, there's an overuse of blue glass, and hardly anyone is on the street.

High rise living has its purpose; Phoenix is at the other extreme, where only 2 options downtown really should be expanded. But, they need to be carefully planned around their surroundings, utilize podiums to setback the tower, etc.

[Phxguy]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

That's great! Tucson leads on several fronts and downtown Tucson and 4th Ave. areas have a great vibe.

Speaking of hotels, how's progress on the two in Downtown Phoenix? Any movement? Last I checked, December of 2013, all the businesses were moving from the Luhrs building to other locations. That seemed pretty hopeful...at the time. How long does it normally take between businesses moving out to demolition to breaking ground? It seems so many projects are in this scenario. USA Place, The SoRo building, etc. It's getting on my nerves with all these apartments and condos proposed that nothing is happening.

Also, gonna beat a dead horse, would it be possible if the exterior of the Luhrs building could be dismantled and reassembled across the street with a more modern interior layout. Or even just set aside for some other developer to piece back together as a lobby to their building?

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by ASUSunDevil

Tucson is getting a grocery store in its "Downtown". Come on, Phoenix.

http://azbex.com/long-sought-downtow...ry-on-the-way/

Why should we compare ourselves to Tucson? Just because we're the bigger city doesn't mean we should be "ahead" of Tucson in that category. Williams has a grocery store that's basically adjacent to its downtown. Still, it shows just how Tucson is progressing. It's building residential projects downtown while we are just twiddling our thumbs and doing back flips over some TOD project in Tempe. Tucson is trying to attract economic development to its core while our city leaders just idly watch as major development locates in Mesa and Tempe. It's no surprise, really. Phoenix is clearly content on playing second fiddle to its suburbs in the name of regional unity rather than acting as a core city should. The model of sprawl and having multiple major activity centers is really starting to backfire on the city of Phoenix. Apparently, most of the public seems completely fine with it too. Downtown is just not on the radar of anyone anymore and the city couldn't care less.

[turpentyne]

I agree that we need to be careful about comparing ourselves to Tucson. They're different animals.

Regarding the statement, "Downtown is just not on the radar of anyone anymore and the city couldn't care less."

Please don't take offense, but WOW! That is quite the juicy overstatement. A glance at the shift in downtown Phoenix over the last 15 years will show you how erroneous it is, as well. We talk about all the things we want, and granted, we'd like them to happen now. But in reality, I think we're all aware that these things cannot and should not happen overnight. Infrastructure is an artform - and a delicate one, at that.

I can tell you that there is a Large and Growing awareness and hope within the community about what's happening downtown. We need more constructive criticisms.

[HX_Guy]

I think he may be referring to now, not what's happened in the last 15 years. Yes, there has been tremendous progress but it seems to have stagnated in the last couple of years. One could blame the recession but then you look at what's going on in Tempe...tower cranes everywhere, and it makes you wonder. There are exactly zero towers going up in downtown Phoenix right now and as far as I know, none in the works that are really credible. Maybe the Luhrs Marriot hotel? Maybe?

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

I think he may be referring to now, not what's happened in the last 15 years. Yes, there has been tremendous progress but it seems to have stagnated in the last couple of years. One could blame the recession but then you look at what's going on in Tempe...tower cranes everywhere, and it makes you wonder. There are exactly zero towers going up in downtown Phoenix right now and as far as I know, none in the works that are really credible. Maybe the Luhrs Marriot hotel? Maybe?

The Luhrs Marriott is for real. There has been recent action (April 15th) on the City's Planning and Development site regarding this project. Apparently there was a pre-construction meeting discussing barricade requirements for when construction takes place.

I'm concerned about Portland Place, however. It seems like that's never going to get off the ground.

[Sepstein]

Anyone know if the apts have been demolished? Drove by there the other day and the lot looks ready to build! It's prob the 25th project for apts or condos I've seen for midtown or downtown in last year or so and pretty sure not even one has broken ground!

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by turpentyne

I agree that we need to be careful about comparing ourselves to Tucson. They're different animals.

Regarding the statement, "Downtown is just not on the radar of anyone anymore and the city couldn't care less."

Please don't take offense, but WOW! That is quite the juicy overstatement. A glance at the shift in downtown Phoenix over the last 15 years will show you how erroneous it is, as well. We talk about all the things we want, and granted, we'd like them to happen now. But in reality, I think we're all aware that these things cannot and should not happen overnight. Infrastructure is an artform - and a delicate one, at that.

I can tell you that there is a Large and Growing awareness and hope within the community about what's happening downtown. We need more constructive criticisms.

I completely agree that tremendous progress had been made over 15 years. I'm referring to the past two years or so. What major projects have happened? It does seem like progress has come to a screeching halt, even though we are now being led to believe that we are lifting out of the recession and Arizona's economy is supposedly getting back on track.

I am more than aware that things don't happen overnight. However, two years in not overnight. It's two years. The suburbs are attracting all the high profile regional industries, while it truly feels like Phoenix is falling apart. It truly feels like Midtown will never add another tower due to the desire for companies to now locate in suburban office parks. It feels like downtown is still just sputtering along.

I will admit that downtown Phoenix seems to be spotlighted a lot more now than any time in recent memory. But it also seems that city civic leaders (Greg Stanton in particular) act like Downtown Phoenix is this booming, vibrant place where everyone wants to be, when it's clearly not true. Downtown Phoenix is losing its standing as the key activity center of the Valley. Downtown Tempe is soon to take that title. We're going to need more than Food Truck Friday, planters on First Street, and some Super Bowl parties. How about actual economic development?

I know it's the job of our civic leaders to be boosters of Downtown Phoenix, but I'm just so tired of the talk with no action following.

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

I think he may be referring to now, not what's happened in the last 15 years. Yes, there has been tremendous progress but it seems to have stagnated in the last couple of years. One could blame the recession but then you look at what's going on in Tempe...tower cranes everywhere, and it makes you wonder. There are exactly zero towers going up in downtown Phoenix right now and as far as I know, none in the works that are really credible. Maybe the Luhrs Marriot hotel? Maybe?

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Sepstein

Anyone know if the apts have been demolished? Drove by there the other day and the lot looks ready to build! It's prob the 25th project for apts or condos I've seen for midtown or downtown in last year or so and pretty sure not even one has broken ground!

Yes. We have another expanded vacant lot with no signs of any new construction. In fact, the "For Sale" sign is still in the middle of the parcel.

[Prestige Worldwide]

Let's not get carried away with the pity party.

It's not like Tucson is attracting a ton of major employers to it's Downtown. (I don't think Tesla plans to locate on Congress St.)

Downtown Tempe and Downtown Tucson benefit immensely from the proximity of the UofA and ASU main campuses, they spur the demand for the residential. Tempe also gets the added bonus of being 20 minutes closer than Phoenix to desirable neighborhoods that $100K households want to live in, Scottsdale, Chandler, Mesa, Gilbert. (I hate saying that with every fiber of my being, but it's true and probably factored into State Farm's decision-making)

Downtown Phoenix is just now getting a taste of having a University presence Downtown and the ASU law school, cancer center, and Eller will be good catalysts that will create demand for some additional residential. (Think of what Downtown Phoenix would have looked like today if the Tempe Normal School was initially located at Central and McDowell. The face of our city would be markedly different and Tempe would look more like a Mesa/Gilbert)

As for Downtown Phoenix's likely targets for employment clusters. They are likely to be related to the financial sector, legal, education, and health care sectors. Generally these tend to be high-income professional jobs who count on high face-to-face interactions and tend not to be office campuses with 2,000+ employees. Phoenix's progress in this realm has been pretty anemic I will concede that point, Freeport was the last major victory (and maybe Alliance, I'm not sure if they were already Downtown). It might be time for Phoenix to start asking why exactly they fork over a bunch of money to GPEC every year and what are they really getting for it.

[HX_Guy]

Bitter and Twisted put this up on their Facebook wall just now, the new front doors.



I love love love the look of this building and that overhang, which itself is something pretty new (within the last year I think).

[turpentyne]

Ok, I'll concede on that point. The last couple of years do seem to have stalled - and Tempe is certainly pushing to take a little of the limelight away from Phoenix.

So, aside from grocery stores, taller buildings/living space - and pushing our poiticians to be more active, What would all of you like to see to draw in the people and investors to downtown? How can we push these changes ourselves?

I feel like there's got to be something more we can do, to remind everyone what is possible!

[dtnphx]

Part of the issue is actual ownership of the land parcels. Many of the land owners hold out for generations thinking that the ultimate payoff is 20-30 years out. It's like Barron-Colliers. They land bank virtually everything! Then, it's whether a project can pencil out. Acquiring the parcels needed for a downtown hi-rise is much harder (and more expensive) than a suburban campus model. Many of the projects being developed are built-to-suit projects in Chandler and Scottsdale. There are some spec projects, but they're small (comparatively). It takes a while for investors to jump on board if there is not a major committed tenant. And, financing requires a 30-50% leasing commitment to get a project going (ex. Hayden Ferry III). Downtown Phoenix has made great strides during the past decade but it's going to take much longer for the synergy to coalesce before we see the tide turn.

[bwaynoh]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

Yes. We have another expanded vacant lot with no signs of any new construction. In fact, the "For Sale" sign is still in the middle of the parcel.

Demolition just wrapped up...they were still working on hauling debris off the lot when I boarded the light rail a few days ago at Roosevelt. The sign you mentioned is actually a "Retail/Restaurant Space For Lease" sign.

[prairieman]

An interesting read concerning Dallas that can apply here as well. Just a couple of points. First, both Phoenix and Dallas are more alike than some would like to admit. Second, at this time, downtown Dallas still does not have a grocery store and they definitely have more living options than downtown Phoenix does.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

Yes. We have another expanded vacant lot with no signs of any new construction. In fact, the "For Sale" sign is still in the middle of the parcel.

That is a "for lease" sign advertising restaurant and retail space.

[rocksteady]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

Part of the issue is actual ownership of the land parcels. Many of the land owners hold out for generations thinking that the ultimate payoff is 20-30 years out. It's like Barron-Colliers. They land bank virtually everything! Then, it's whether a project can pencil out. Acquiring the parcels needed for a downtown hi-rise is much harder (and more expensive) than a suburban campus model. Many of the projects being developed are built-to-suit projects in Chandler and Scottsdale. There are some spec projects, but they're small (comparatively). It takes a while for investors to jump on board if there is not a major committed tenant. And, financing requires a 30-50% leasing commitment to get a project going (ex. Hayden Ferry III). Downtown Phoenix has made great strides during the past decade but it's going to take much longer for the synergy to coalesce before we see the tide turn.

I've always heard this as a big reason as to why our downtown fails to develop as quickly as it could/should. I'm curious if you know if this problem occurs or has occured in other quickly developing cities like Denver, Austin, San Diego...or is this just a Phoenix phenomenon.

[turpentyne]

The problem exists in other cities, to varying degrees. But Phoenix' problem is that combined with an expansive era of land-grabbing from the 1940s to the 1960s, this city has been ruled by developers through much of it's history. And unscrupulous ones, at that. We spread out too fast, leaving the center to rot.

Their bad practices prevented this city from developing organically as a city should. Even these things were predated by early 20th century floods before the Salt river was dammed. causing the "streetcar neighborhoods" to spread north and leave those who couldn't afford to move, stuck in the old neighborhoods that many now call slums.

Indeed, the city of Phoenix forcibly and purposefully destroyed/overtook and blighted a neighborhood just west of the airport through the 1960s/70s/80s - for development. This now stands empty, but for a rental car facility and a church near 16th and buckeye that the blighted community was able to get preserved. That church (now called the Braun-Sacred Heart Center) and the Don Bolles murder should stand as testament to the many, many nasty stories of how developers (who have often also been our politicians) plundered this city's land resources to personal gain and Phoenix' loss. These entrenched problems are difficult to get rid of.

Phew.. sorry! I think I got emotionally attached to this post. Sorry! hahaha!