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  #441  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2017, 4:46 PM
Notyrview Notyrview is offline
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Can we please stop with cavalier attitude toward the displacement of thousands of African-Americans because of poverty, no jobs, no gun control, the prison industrial complex, the insanity of drug sentencing, and at worst, the murder of innocent civilians by police. This is exactly why people have to scream BLACK LIVES MATTER.

Mod, please delete these posts. It's offensive on so many levels.
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  #442  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2017, 5:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Notyrview View Post
Can we please stop with cavalier attitude toward the displacement of thousands of African-Americans because of poverty, no jobs, no gun control, the prison industrial complex, the insanity of drug sentencing, and at worst, the murder of innocent civilians by police. This is exactly why people have to scream BLACK LIVES MATTER.
I hate to be the downer but as a section 8 recipient who is susceptible to displacement, I've given up trying to rationalize some people's mentality on this forum. It's never been new to me since I was a kid that many people in the US are callous towards public housing recipients and those who live below the poverty line.

I always thought that the hate was coming from the suburbs and Downstate, but this forum has showed me that even people in the city see us as a problem.
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  #443  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2017, 5:25 PM
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Mikemak27 Mikemak27 is offline
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Originally Posted by Notyrview View Post
Can we please stop with cavalier attitude toward the displacement of thousands of African-Americans because of poverty, no jobs, no gun control, the prison industrial complex, the insanity of drug sentencing, and at worst, the murder of innocent civilians by police. This is exactly why people have to scream BLACK LIVES MATTER.

Mod, please delete these posts. It's offensive on so many levels.
The only person on this entire board that I get offended by is you. First off, you don't even live in Chicago, yet you often try spreading your condescending opinions about this city. Nearly every one of your comments is some sort of social agenda post about how the city hates poor, immigrant, LBTG, or black people. Second, many of those people leaving these neighborhoods are thrilled to leave their poverty, gang, and violence stricken neighborhood. They don't want to live there. Finally, your post is wildly inaccurate. Chicago has gun control. It is quite difficult compared to the rest of the country to buy a legal gun. Additionally, Chicago and Illinois have no private for profit prisons. In fact, Tom Dart has demolished 3 buildings at cook county jail. Possession of marijuana is no longer a criminal offense. If anything, way too many VIOLENT offenders are being let out of jail due to dropped charges, plea deals, and lax judge sentencing. Violent gang members are often back on the streets in weeks after committing violent crimes, including shootings. Who do you think is committing all of these shootings?
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  #444  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2017, 8:10 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by Mikemak27 View Post
The only person on this entire board that I get offended by is you. First off, you don't even live in Chicago, yet you often try spreading your condescending opinions about this city. Nearly every one of your comments is some sort of social agenda post about how the city hates poor, immigrant, LBTG, or black people. Second, many of those people leaving these neighborhoods are thrilled to leave their poverty, gang, and violence stricken neighborhood. They don't want to live there. Finally, your post is wildly inaccurate. Chicago has gun control. It is quite difficult compared to the rest of the country to buy a legal gun. Additionally, Chicago and Illinois have no private for profit prisons. In fact, Tom Dart has demolished 3 buildings at cook county jail. Possession of marijuana is no longer a criminal offense. If anything, way too many VIOLENT offenders are being let out of jail due to dropped charges, plea deals, and lax judge sentencing. Violent gang members are often back on the streets in weeks after committing violent crimes, including shootings. Who do you think is committing all of these shootings?
Yeah, his reaction above was a bit puzzling, I don't see what was said that was so offensive. I mean it's not like white hipsters are moving into the South and West sides and pushing people out, they are leaving because these areas suck and, as long as the status quo is maintained, will never get better. The worst thing about the anti gentrification crowd is that they are trying to shut down the one organic process that causes social mixing. You are literally having wealthier people willingly moving in next to pooerer people, a noble goal we write laws to try to enforce (like the ARO). Yet when people do it willingly it is some kind of evil monster. The only way areas like the South and West side will ever improve is if some of the poorest people move elsewhere and less poor people are displaced from previously affordable areas by development and move into those areas stabilizing them.

It will never happen because we write a law requiring it. It will never happen because finally enough storefront churches have opened in these areas. It will never happen because we build new CPS schools or refrain from closing others. It will never happen because everyone who is causing the problems in these areas just has a sudden change of heart and drops their guns. It will only happen if some of the people find oppurtunity elsewhere and the density of impoverished individuals with no discernable future is dilluted by a mix of people who have a little something going for themselves. This is not cheering for other's loss or a "caviler attitude towards the displacement of thousands", this is the truth, like it or not.

But not to be lost in all of this is that people are leaving on their own volition from these areas. Who are you to say they need to or should stay. If they believe their lives will be better elsewhere, then they should, by all means, go ahead and move somewhere else.
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  #445  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 12:20 AM
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African Americans are leaving the city because the city neglected and disinvested in their communities, resulting in those communities deteriorating to a point where middle-class African Americans have no choice but to leave. This leaves only the gang bangers and the poorest of the poor who don't have the means to leave. The overall result is that the city is violent. And no you can't carve out parts of the city and act like it's separate because it adversely affects everyone in this city.

Chicago violence results in a smaller tax base and higher taxes and fees for the rest of the City. Even if you think you're removed from the violence you are paying the price. We need to start thinking of deliberate ways to reinvest in these communities and foster a strong, vibrant African American community. If anyone thinks that the solution is waiting for these areas to drain so that gentrification can occur, guess what.....you'll be waiting your whole life.

In my opinion, the city needs to continue to push for tougher gun penalties at the state level and commute sentences for drug offenders, so I agree with some of the above comments on that. Even further the city needs to reinvest in mental health and drug rehabilitation centers because the County Jail is tying up resources that could be used better and more efficiently. Improve police relations with the neighborhood, have more cops walk their beats during daylight hours, yes even in Englewood. Implement "Cop Day" in elementary and middle school, let the kids interact with the police at a young age. Police recruitment drive in the African American community. Continue and increase early education and afterschool programs. The state also needs to get its shit together, I learned the other day Ceasefire has lost some of it's funding.
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  #446  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 1:22 AM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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^^^ Government malinvestment has almost nothing to do with the creation of slums. If anything, government investment has intensified the plight of minorities as it funded the widescale destruction of existing affordable housing and communities and the construction of neighborhood ruining expressways, projects, and general slum clearance projects (IMD, etc). Do you think that "investment" did anyone any favors? Absolutely not.

Slums occur naturally on their own, they do not appear because governments "fail to invest". What does that even mean? Did the government stop renovating the privately owned buildings and cause them to fall into disrepair? Did they close all the schools, police departments, and fire departments? Did they stop keeping local businesses up and running? No.

What actually occurred was a million poor Southern blacks who had been marginalized and abused for generations during and after slavery moved to a Northern industrial city in search of an opportunity to lift themselves up. That created the first round of slums as areas like Bronzeville which had fallen into disrepair were rapidly populated and then overpopulated by migrants. Then globalization occurred and the great Northern workshops were closed slamming the door shut on this entire population. This caused already low income communities to collapse as their entire essence and reason for being blew out the window. This had nothing to do with "government investment", it was an absolutely organic economic and sociological phenomenon.

Is there things the government could do to attempt to mitigate the underlying trends that caused there phenomena? Sure? But a "lack of investment" causing this? Please...
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  #447  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 2:53 AM
Rocket49 Rocket49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Is there things the government could do to attempt to mitigate the underlying trends that caused there phenomena? Sure? But a "lack of investment" causing this? Please...
I doubt anyone, except perhaps a racist who believes that minorities are naturally violent and lazy, thinks there is one cause for the dire situation in parts of the South Side and West Side.
But I think it's fair to say a lack of investment in:
1) schools
2) subsidized housing
3) police
are some of the things that have caused those neighborhoods to be barely habitable.

Last edited by Rocket49; Jan 6, 2017 at 3:24 AM.
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  #448  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 3:28 AM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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Originally Posted by Rocket49 View Post
I doubt anyone, except perhaps a racist who believes that minorities are naturally violent and lazy, thinks there is one cause for the dire situation in parts of the South Side and West Side.
But I think it's fair to say a lack of investment in:
1) schools
2) subsidized housing
3) police
are some of the things that have caused those neighborhoods to be barely inhabitable.
CPS gets enough money. It spends something like $15,000 per student systemwide. And all schools get equal funding per student in the system.

There is so much affordable housing in Chicago. What do you mean by subsidized housing?

Police have been shifted to more violent and crime prone areas from other parts of the city.
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  #449  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 4:38 AM
Rocket49 Rocket49 is offline
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CPS gets enough money. It spends something like $15,000 per student systemwide. And all schools get equal funding per student in the system.

There is so much affordable housing in Chicago. What do you mean by subsidized housing?

Police have been shifted to more violent and crime prone areas from other parts of the city.
1) CPS needs to spend more money per student on the schools in Austin, Englewood, etc. than they spend per student on magnet schools or schools in wealthier neighborhoods. Many of the students in the poor neighborhoods need all the help they can get if they are to have a realistic chance of ending up as productive contributors to society. Give substantial bonuses so that the best and most experienced teachers will work in schools in the poor neighborhoods. Invest in quality after-school programs for the students.

2) Many of the families in those poor neighborhoods earn less than $20,000 per year. Which means they can afford about $500 per month for housing. Are there any decent apartments in the city you can rent for $500/month? I doubt it. These people need substantial subsidies in the forms of vouches or the like.

3) Until if/when crime is controlled in the worst neighborhoods, the city needs to shift even more cops to those neighborhoods.
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  #450  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 4:45 AM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket49 View Post
I doubt anyone, except perhaps a racist who believes that minorities are naturally violent and lazy, thinks there is one cause for the dire situation in parts of the South Side and West Side.
But I think it's fair to say a lack of investment in:
1) schools
2) subsidized housing
3) police
are some of the things that have caused those neighborhoods to be barely habitable.
Nonsense.

Blaming outside factors is the definition of the problem
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  #451  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 5:24 AM
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Nonsense.

Blaming outside factors is the definition of the problem
Trying to fix a symptom without diagnosing the disease is the problem. Bad policies caused this problem of segregated communities and persistent proverty which leads to violence, end of story. Otherwise you're basically saying these people just are born with a depravity within them, which is.....well you know. Some of you need to sociology classes. Some of the comments here are narrow minded and just focus on the violence but not the contributing factors. It you don't address the factor that lead to violence you will not solve violence. You can lock up as many people as you want and it one solve the problem.
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  #452  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 6:12 AM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by Rocket49 View Post
1) CPS needs to spend more money per student on the schools in Austin, Englewood, etc. than they spend per student on magnet schools or schools in wealthier neighborhoods. Many of the students in the poor neighborhoods need all the help they can get if they are to have a realistic chance of ending up as productive contributors to society. Give substantial bonuses so that the best and most experienced teachers will work in schools in the poor neighborhoods. Invest in quality after-school programs for the students.

2) Many of the families in those poor neighborhoods earn less than $20,000 per year. Which means they can afford about $500 per month for housing. Are there any decent apartments in the city you can rent for $500/month? I doubt it. These people need substantial subsidies in the forms of vouches or the like.

3) Until if/when crime is controlled in the worst neighborhoods, the city needs to shift even more cops to those neighborhoods.
1. That would be great to give performance based pay to teachers, too bad that's the fundamental reason CTU went on strike a few years ago. They ended up partially conceding on pay, on school closings, on contributions to pensions and healthcare, but the one they could not and would not accept was performance based pay or accountability. As such all teaching positions in Chicago remain strictly seniority based where the biggest dinosaurs eat first.

2. I have whole buildings full of apartments like this. Anyone who tells you they don't exist is spouting bullshit. I bought eight buildings in Logan Square which were mostly 2 bedroom apartments that were averaging $600/mo. Of course I'm putting a stop to that because the only way you can rent out an apartment for that little over the long term is to do absolutely zero long term maintenance on the building, but these buildings exist in huge numbers in all areas of the city that are not south of Wilson and East of the Kennedy.

3. Crime will never be controlled until you eliminate concentrated poverty for a couple of generations and allow landlords to actually kick out deadbeat or criminal tenants. I've gotten to know multiple hardened criminals, drug dealers, gang kingpins, etc. because they were forced on me by our county's backwards eviction laws. When you are stuck with a gangbanger drug dealer for a year or more because the eviction process takes that long you actually often end up getting to know them quite well. I've seen how these people function and how they end up where they are. You can't just "get rid of the crime". I've become very good at getting these people to move without having to wait through the entire eviction process (it involves large sums of cash and a bit of cajoling, but they are all businessmen at the end of the day) and even when you achieve that, all you are doing is relocating the problem to another block. There is no "solving" it.

Have you ever rented a Uhaul truck and spent the day packing up a gangbanger and moving them to another neighborhood just to get them out of your hair? I have. Ever been shot at while collecting rent? I have. Ever had a boulder thrown through your car windshield (and every other car behind the building) by your tenant's rival gang? I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UPChicago View Post
Trying to fix a symptom without diagnosing the disease is the problem.
The disease is simple: concentrated poverty creates a poverty trap. Break up the concrentration and the trap will gradually disappate. Guess what is happening? The iceberg is crumbling and the previously massive concentrations of destitute poverty are mixing back in with other populations. Thats the only way this problem will every be solved, period. You could spend one hundred thousand dollars a student, but if they go home to a broken household with half their relatives in jail or felons and their Mom is a crackhead and their brothers are gang bangers, they are still going to end up in the same trap.
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  #453  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 2:35 PM
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This is precisely how CPS currently funds its schools, so I'm not sure what your point is.
...
I love it when people actually have good data.
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  #454  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 3:01 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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Good luck getting more Section 8 vouchers out of Trump.
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  #455  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 4:39 PM
urbanpln urbanpln is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
^^^ Government malinvestment has almost nothing to do with the creation of slums. If anything, government investment has intensified the plight of minorities as it funded the widescale destruction of existing affordable housing and communities and the construction of neighborhood ruining expressways, projects, and general slum clearance projects (IMD, etc). Do you think that "investment" did anyone any favors? Absolutely not.

Slums occur naturally on their own, they do not appear because governments "fail to invest". What does that even mean? Did the government stop renovating the privately owned buildings and cause them to fall into disrepair? Did they close all the schools, police departments, and fire departments? Did they stop keeping local businesses up and running? No.

What actually occurred was a million poor Southern blacks who had been marginalized and abused for generations during and after slavery moved to a Northern industrial city in search of an opportunity to lift themselves up. That created the first round of slums as areas like Bronzeville which had fallen into disrepair were rapidly populated and then overpopulated by migrants. Then globalization occurred and the great Northern workshops were closed slamming the door shut on this entire population. This caused already low income communities to collapse as their entire essence and reason for being blew out the window. This had nothing to do with "government investment", it was an absolutely organic economic and sociological phenomenon.

Is there things the government could do to attempt to mitigate the underlying trends that caused there phenomena? Sure? But a "lack of investment" causing this? Please...
You have no freakin idea what you are talking about. Read Arnold Hirsch's "The Making of the Second Ghetto". Hirsch argues that in the post-depression years Chicago was a "pioneer in developing concepts and devices" for housing segregation. It is well documented that Chicago's racial housing patterns were created by design, and now we have a serious problem because of it. The city is losing African Americans that it should be keeping. The ones that are leaving are the most productive. Those who are staying can't afford to leave, and in some cases are the trouble makers.

I'm done with this site and refuse to get into a discussion with people who only see things based upon their life experiences. I hope the moderators edit this discussion
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  #456  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 5:15 PM
TimeAgain TimeAgain is offline
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Originally Posted by urbanpln View Post
You have no freakin idea what you are talking about. Read Arnold Hirsch's "The Making of the Second Ghetto". Hirsch argues that in the post-depression years Chicago was a "pioneer in developing concepts and devices" for housing segregation. It is well documented that Chicago's racial housing patterns were created by design, and now we have a serious problem because of it. The city is losing African Americans that it should be keeping. The ones that are leaving are the most productive. Those who are staying can't afford to leave, and in some cases are the trouble makers.

I'm done with this site and refuse to get into a discussion with people who only see things based upon their life experiences. I hope the moderators edit this discussion
I get the sense that those that stay behind and can't afford to leave will eventually be moved out to due to not owning property, property taxes, foreclosure, etc. It's a terrible way of gentrifying, but I get the sense that in 10-20 years, it'll happen. Chicago is such a unique example in this country. Chicago is going through big property development but is either losing population or staying stagnant. However, that's due to an influx of high income individuals while losing more blue collar workers.
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  #457  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 5:38 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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I will continue to say that no city is transforming (in the US) as much as Chicago is.

Most of it is good news, but the bad news (gang wars and murders) is really, really bad
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  #458  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 5:54 PM
TimeAgain TimeAgain is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
I will continue to say that no city is transforming (in the US) as much as Chicago is.

Most of it is good news, but the bad news (gang wars and murders) is really, really bad
Mind expressing how you think the city is changing?
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  #459  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 6:13 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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Originally Posted by urbanpln View Post
You have no freakin idea what you are talking about. Read Arnold Hirsch's "The Making of the Second Ghetto". Hirsch argues that in the post-depression years Chicago was a "pioneer in developing concepts and devices" for housing segregation. It is well documented that Chicago's racial housing patterns were created by design, and now we have a serious problem because of it. The city is losing African Americans that it should be keeping. The ones that are leaving are the most productive. Those who are staying can't afford to leave, and in some cases are the trouble makers.

I'm done with this site and refuse to get into a discussion with people who only see things based upon their life experiences. I hope the moderators edit this discussion
another good read about the history of institutional segregation in Chicago:

https://www.amazon.com/South-Side-Po.../dp/1137280158
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Slums occur naturally on their own, they do not appear because governments "fail to invest". What does that even mean? Did the government stop renovating the privately owned buildings and cause them to fall into disrepair? Did they close all the schools, police departments, and fire departments? Did they stop keeping local businesses up and running? No.
its not so much a matter of investment (although even today one can drive through certain neighborhoods and see the deferred maintenance and understand we live in an unequal city where services are not shared the same with all citizens. when one drives through Lawndale and sees burned out street lights and roads that look like lunar landscapes...yes, the government has failed to uphold its end of the bargain for these citizens). its a matter of the city literally held racist housing policies and wouldnt allow blacks to buy into white communities. redlining anyone? blockbusting? slums occurred because a segment of our population was ostracized from living in other communities, were denied the same opportunities available to others, and had no other options. the impact continues to today where homes in black neighborhoods appreciate at far lower rates than those in white areas, destroying generational wealth in these communities (home ownership is the the most significant form of equity for most of the working class) and locking them out of the housing recovery. to suggest that 200 years of inequality dont have an impact on the way that cities form or the lives people are forced into is a complete garbage opinion. to say nothing of other government factors like "tough on crime" mass incarceration, failed war on drugs, etc. Active denial of these facts is in effect a perpetuation of the problem. and now we have a president who he himself was sued by the federal government for racial housing discrimination.

Last edited by Via Chicago; Jan 6, 2017 at 11:05 PM.
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  #460  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 10:38 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by TimeAgain View Post
Mind expressing how you think the city is changing?
As we have already seen data for, parts of the city near the core are growing faster than any other US city. The amount of development is staggering, and large swaths that were just parking hellholes are turning into whole neighborhoods. A 24/7 city is emerging before our eyes, with affluence rising.

And in the very same city, gang wars and killings are leading to depopulation in several large areas.

I can't think of another American city seeing such change
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