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  #481  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 3:46 PM
TheBrain TheBrain is offline
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[QUOTE=OtrainUser;8094797]My best guess would be that Windmill owns that portion of track when they bought all the former Domtar properties.[QUOTE]

Decided to have a little fun with the Gatineau Atlas.

What a mess!

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  #482  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:20 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I dispute your argument that these are similar in size to Ottawa. Mississauga is a suburb of Toronto, so it doesn't have its own CMA but as a city, it has a population of 721,599, which is 77% of Ottawa's 934,243. Admittedly it is a difficult comparison to make though, especially since Mississauga is a suburb (and thus has a large number of commuters leaving the city) and Ottawa is an amalgamated city. Most suburbs don't get their own rapid transit system, but build off of the urban centre's one.

Hamilton's CMA has a population of 747,545, which is 75% of Ottawa's Ontario Portion of CMA of 991,726.

Kitchener-Waterloo's CMA has a population of 523,894, which is 53% of Ottawa's

London's CMA has a population of 494,069, which is 50% of Ottawa's

The remaining CMAs you listed (Windsor, Sudbury and Kingston) are aren't even remotely close at 33%, 17% and 16% respectively.
Nitpick the numbers or context all you want. The politicians/government aren't going to send all their dough to Ottawa and watch their MPPs get slaughtered in those other communities.

The only reason that Ottawa has gotten as much as it has, is because Ottawa is the regional centre for Eastern Ontario and it's the nation's capital. Otherwise, a $5 billion transit plan to be executed in about a 12 year period, for a city of about a million is very atypical in Canada. Expecting that level of generosity from upper level governments to continue, would be naïve in the extreme.
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  #483  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:22 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
That's Mississauga's own damn fault.
Good luck using that argument with Queen's Park.


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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
I imagine they won't for a while, either: none of those three cities are good candidates for anything beyond street-running buses for a very long time.
If you're going to argue that Montreal Rd is an urgent priority for its population level, then Kingston and Windsor are well within their rights to argue for BRT on their major avenues. Indeed, they are now starting to do just that.
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  #484  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 6:12 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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LOL. If you actually believe that any politician will pledge anything beyond Stage 2, I have a nice bridge that you might consider as an investment opportunity.....
Would it be one crossing the Ottawa River?
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  #485  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 6:14 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
If you're going to argue that Montreal Rd is an urgent priority for its population level, then Kingston and Windsor are well within their rights to argue for BRT on their major avenues. Indeed, they are now starting to do just that.
BRT or bus priority measures? They aren't the same thing.

Ottawa's transitway was first opened in 1983. Ottawa's population (using current boundaries) was 546,849 in 1981. Neither Kingston nor Windsor are even close to that.

Last edited by roger1818; Feb 22, 2018 at 6:31 PM.
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  #486  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 6:22 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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People seem to think political decisions are made by actuaries. It isn't population that matters for transit funding, it is swing ridings (ridings that change hands from time to time and a party needs for form a government). This is why areas like Kitchener-Waterloo, Orleans and the 416 suburbs get transit (or other) goodies and ridings like Ottawa-Vanier (where a serial killer could win as long as there was an "L" next to his name) do not.
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  #487  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 6:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Nitpick the numbers or context all you want. The politicians/government aren't going to send all their dough to Ottawa and watch their MPPs get slaughtered in those other communities.

The only reason that Ottawa has gotten as much as it has, is because Ottawa is the regional centre for Eastern Ontario and it's the nation's capital. Otherwise, a $5 billion transit plan to be executed in about a 12 year period, for a city of about a million is very atypical in Canada. Expecting that level of generosity from upper level governments to continue, would be naïve in the extreme.
Except that very little was invested in major capital transit projects in the two or three decades previous, so it's basically just a catch-up effort we're talking about. (I realize that Ottawa isn't the only city that suffered from non-investment in transit.)
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  #488  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 7:34 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Good luck using that argument with Queen's Park.

If you're going to argue that Montreal Rd is an urgent priority for its population level, then Kingston and Windsor are well within their rights to argue for BRT on their major avenues. Indeed, they are now starting to do just that.

Montreal Road and other areas of Ottawa which are being deprived of meaningful transit solutions are denser, and, this is rather important, part of a metropolitan area of 1.3-million and growing.

Kingston, Windsor, and Sudbury are 1/10th to 1/4th the size, less dense (massively so, in Sudbury's case) and the two latter are alternating between periods of low growth and outright stagnation.

I fully support transit solutions for smaller and mid-sized cities and conurbations, but there is no reasonable planning horizon that sees even BRT in either of those three centres, let alone anything heavier.
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  #489  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
There is a provincial election in Ontario this spring, right?
That bridge is owned by Ottawa, which is a city in Ontario, right?

Let the rain of money pour down.
There's also a provincial election in Québec.

Instead of wasting time and money appealing the CTA's decision, the City of Ottawa should take this opportunity to sit down with the Feds, Queen's Park and representatives from Québec and Gatineau to get this done.

The more we wait, the more expensive it will be. Heck, after 15 years of abandonment, we might well have to replace the damn thing.


Quick addition: to counter to the Mississauga argument, they have Go Transit.
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  #490  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 12:07 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
BRT or bus priority measures? They aren't the same thing.

Ottawa's transitway was first opened in 1983. Ottawa's population (using current boundaries) was 546,849 in 1981. Neither Kingston nor Windsor are even close to that.
BRT lies on a spectrum. Most BRT in the world is not Ottawa Transitway level. Look at what London has planned with SHIFT to see what Kingston and Windsor could do.

And again, population numbers are not as relevant as you think they are.

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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
People seem to think political decisions are made by actuaries. It isn't population that matters for transit funding, it is swing ridings (ridings that change hands from time to time and a party needs for form a government). This is why areas like Kitchener-Waterloo, Orleans and the 416 suburbs get transit (or other) goodies and ridings like Ottawa-Vanier (where a serial killer could win as long as there was an "L" next to his name) do not.
Exactly. It's also largely why Toronto has actually been so neglected on transit investment till the last few years. The Liberals knew they could win the 416 without doing anything. And the Conservatives knew they stood no chance at winning any seats in the 416. And so both parties had every incentive to prioritize other cities.

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Except that very little was invested in major capital transit projects in the two or three decades previous, so it's basically just a catch-up effort we're talking about. (I realize that Ottawa isn't the only city that suffered from non-investment in transit.)
As you point out, it wasn't just Ottawa. There was a drought in transit construction in Ontario. And now Ottawa is effectively swimming in transit dollars.

People on this forum may not think this way. But if you're sitting in many of the other communities and you look at $5 billion for a million person town, you'll be asking your MP and MPP where your dollars are too.

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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Montreal Road and other areas of Ottawa which are being deprived of meaningful transit solutions are denser, and, this is rather important, part of a metropolitan area of 1.3-million and growing.
And you think the same argument can't be used of various avenues all over the GTA? What makes Montreal Rd more important than say a Yonge North subway or Durham BRT or Waterloo Stage 2? And virtually any major corridor in the GTA can generate more ridership today that anything on Montreal Rd will in the next half century.


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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Kingston, Windsor, and Sudbury are 1/10th to 1/4th the size, less dense (massively so, in Sudbury's case) and the two latter are alternating between periods of low growth and outright stagnation.
And their argument is going to be that transit will help them improve their quality of life and grow. And are you going to be the one to tell their MPPs and MPs to take a hike when they ask for funding?

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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
I fully support transit solutions for smaller and mid-sized cities and conurbations,
Your last few comments certainly don't indicate this to be true at all.

"My community above all else. Who gives a shit about Kingston or Windsor or Sudbury?"

And to prove me right:

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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
but there is no reasonable planning horizon that sees even BRT in either of those three centres, let alone anything heavier.
When I say BRT, I don't mean a billion dollar Transitway cutting across town. You do realize that BRT comes in different forms right? Most smaller communities will want what York has with VIVA or Brampton has with Zum or what London is planning with SHIFT.
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  #491  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 12:11 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
There's also a provincial election in Québec.

Instead of wasting time and money appealing the CTA's decision, the City of Ottawa should take this opportunity to sit down with the Feds, Queen's Park and representatives from Québec and Gatineau to get this done.

The more we wait, the more expensive it will be. Heck, after 15 years of abandonment, we might well have to replace the damn thing.
The fundamental problem here is not Ottawa. It's Gatineau. If you were to give Gatineau half a billion dollars tomorrow, they would certainly not prioritize a cross-river connection. And I don't blame them.

The feds should be driving this, recognizing their own interests, as a major employer in the region. Ottawa probably can't afford to build the crossing on its own.

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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Quick addition: to counter to the Mississauga argument, they have Go Transit.
And GO Transit is irrelevant for local travel. Hence why they are building the Hurontario LRT.
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  #492  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 12:15 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Montreal Road and other areas of Ottawa which are being deprived of meaningful transit solutions are denser, and, this is rather important, part of a metropolitan area of 1.3-million and growing.

Kingston, Windsor, and Sudbury are 1/10th to 1/4th the size, less dense (massively so, in Sudbury's case) and the two latter are alternating between periods of low growth and outright stagnation.

I fully support transit solutions for smaller and mid-sized cities and conurbations, but there is no reasonable planning horizon that sees even BRT in either of those three centres, let alone anything heavier.
Sudbury's is due to the nature of it's economy. You want a more interesting case - Timmins, it really hasn't changed in over 40 years.
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  #493  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 12:18 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
There's also a provincial election in Québec.

Instead of wasting time and money appealing the CTA's decision, the City of Ottawa should take this opportunity to sit down with the Feds, Queen's Park and representatives from Québec and Gatineau to get this done.

The more we wait, the more expensive it will be. Heck, after 15 years of abandonment, we might well have to replace the damn thing.


Quick addition: to counter to the Mississauga argument, they have Go Transit.
It sounds like Phase 2 could be changed to include the bridge. The Gatineau side could be new money promised and just built at the same time as Phase 2.
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  #494  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
The fundamental problem here is not Ottawa. It's Gatineau. If you were to give Gatineau half a billion dollars tomorrow, they would certainly not prioritize a cross-river connection. And I don't blame them.
.
Well, we wouldn't prioritize a river crossing to Bayview, I can tell you that much.
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  #495  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 4:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
BRT lies on a spectrum. Most BRT in the world is not Ottawa Transitway level.
True, but I wouldn't call queue jump lanes to be BRT. Ottawa was able to take advantage of abandoned rail corridors to build much of the Transitway but that may not be possible in other cities.

Quote:
Look at what London has planned with SHIFT to see what Kingston and Windsor could do.
Here is a picture of what London Shift will look like and I agree that is a form of BRT (it looks like what is planned for Baseline). Do you really think Kingston and Windsor have the demand to support something like that?



Quote:
And again, population numbers are not as relevant as you think they are.
They give you a hint as to how much demand a system would have and how much congestion needs to be overcome. There are exceptions, but these tend to be proportional to the population.

They also tell the politicians how many votes they are buying.
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  #496  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
True, but I wouldn't call queue jump lanes to be BRT. Ottawa was able to take advantage of abandoned rail corridors to build much of the Transitway but that may not be possible in other cities.



Here is a picture of what London Shift will look like and I agree that is a form of BRT (it looks like what is planned for Baseline). Do you really think Kingston and Windsor have the demand to support something like that?





They give you a hint as to how much demand a system would have and how much congestion needs to be overcome. There are exceptions, but these tend to be proportional to the population.

They also tell the politicians how many votes they are buying.
Windsor and Kingston are much smaller than London.. London has 500,000 people in its metro, while Windsor has 300,000 and Kingston only 150,000.

Kingston's higher order transit solution is express buses running in mixed traffic with some signal priority. The city has implemented 3 routes with a 4th coming in May. And it's worked wonders.. transit ridership has increased by double-digit percentages every year since they started implementing it, even as the city's population barely grows at all.

Map of the express network currently (https://www.cityofkingston.ca/docume...c-eb6348d0ae54), and the new route starting in May https://www.cityofkingston.ca/docume...0-65850ef3a682
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  #497  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 9:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
The fundamental problem here is not Ottawa. It's Gatineau. If you were to give Gatineau half a billion dollars tomorrow, they would certainly not prioritize a cross-river connection. And I don't blame them.

The feds should be driving this, recognizing their own interests, as a major employer in the region. Ottawa probably can't afford to build the crossing on its own.



And GO Transit is irrelevant for local travel. Hence why they are building the Hurontario LRT.
I agree the Feds should step up to fix the bridge (maybe on the condition the City hands it over for a dollar). In any case, most of Gatineau City Council, and certainly the Mayor's party, want to interline the transit systems.

As for Mississauga, it's not the same. Ottawa's (and Gatineau's) need is to get people to and from a central business area within the greater metropolitan region. Mississauga needs to get people to and from Toronto. Go Transit works fine in that respect. There might be enough traffic going across that city to justify surface LRT now, but not a light-metro type system similar to the Confederation Line.
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  #498  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2018, 3:38 PM
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A 2.8 km eastward extension with two new stations has just been announced for the Rapibus. It should open in 2021.

This will complete the first phase of the project as initially envisioned.

http://www.sto.ca/index.php?id=467&L=fr#c10615
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  #499  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2018, 4:53 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Here is the link in English for those who aren't bilingual:

http://www.sto.ca/index.php?id=467&L=en#c10615
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