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  #301  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 4:37 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Originally Posted by Mac Write View Post
Good question, how will bikes be accommodated on the gondola? Also how will seating be handled as well as wheelchair access. This is all during lineups of course (Thinking of video of Peak 2 Peak and how crowded the loading bay was). A wheelchair would need to enter, turnaround while others are boarding. I know we aren't this fall along in design (or maybe we are), but these are good questions to ask. True Skytrain has short dwell times and is more open inside, but the gondola cabin is smaller and we don't know how the internal layout will be done.
These concerns are already answered in the information package allan_kuan posted. Generally, gondolas have These will be large open gondolas capable of holding 30-35 people. I'm lead to believe that there won't be too many seats in these gondolas - they will be on the side and could potentially be flipped up to accomodate wheelchair users and bicycles. While gondolas are in continuous motion, they are slow enough at stations to allow for safe, level disembarkation for wheelchair users and seniors. Unlike SkyTrain, there will have to be staff at every stations (there are only two after all) and I'm sure they will be there to assist those who are in need.
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  #302  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 7:19 AM
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global news did a story about it on their news tonight

I can't see the video up yet but if you watch the whole 11 pm newscast from may 25th its on there
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  #303  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 4:59 PM
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  #304  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 5:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mac Write View Post
...how will seating be handled as well as wheelchair access.
I find it hard to believe that it would be any more difficult to accommodate wheelchairs in a gondola car than it is on the buses. Doubtless the gondola car will have a level entry, that alone will save a ton of time compared to the need for a bus to lower and raise its wheelchair ramp.
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  #305  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 10:37 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Edit - Page 4 of the display boards says it moves slow enough at the terminal for easy loading

Last edited by officedweller; May 26, 2011 at 10:51 PM.
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  #306  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 10:43 PM
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No they don't. The problem with the wheelchair as I see it. They have to enter, then get parked while others wait. THis will take about 10-20 seconds. Say the doors at least as wide as a Mark II Skytrain, the wheelchair will still slow loading. Maybe the wheelchair spots will be opposite the door which would be the fastest for loading, but unloading they have to backup (say a scooter) I could see problems doing it in enough time.

I think what they could do, is have the cabin come to the unload and do a complete stop with the "Skytrain Chime" after 30 seconds and then it starts moving to the loading area. At the loading area it could stop again for 30 seconds. Of course if people hold the doors, then the entire system will callapse.
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  #307  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 10:53 PM
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Stopping temporarily makes sense.
There would have to be attendants at the terminals who could deal with that.
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  #308  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 11:09 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
But gondolas don't stop moving around the turn when loading passengers, do they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Write View Post
No they don't. The problem with the wheelchair as I see it. They have to enter, then get parked while others wait. THis will take about 10-20 seconds. Say the doors at least as wide as a Mark II Skytrain, the wheelchair will still slow loading. Maybe the wheelchair spots will be opposite the door which would be the fastest for loading, but unloading they have to backup (say a scooter) I could see problems doing it in enough time.

I think what they could do, is have the cabin come to the unload and do a complete stop with the "Skytrain Chime" after 30 seconds and then it starts moving to the loading area. At the loading area it could stop again for 30 seconds. Of course if people hold the doors, then the entire system will callapse.
No they don't stop completely, but like I said earlier, a gondola goes incredibly slow at the station areas. There aren't too many videos out there, but this is Nong Ping 360 at Hong Kong. Notice how slow it goes as it approaches this area for about 25 sounds - and this isn't a station.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIFSTvD4yiQ&t=1m7s

In Gondola systems, there are generally two "platforms" or "bays" for the lack of a better word: one for unloading and the other for loading. As a gondola car approaches the station, it begins to slow down until it reaches a safe speed for disembarkation (as per speed in the above video). As long as the length of the unloading bay is long enough, then there's way more than enough time for wheelchair users to embark and disembark. After passing the unloading bay, the gondola car turns around before going to the loading bay, where it then spends another X amount of seconds loading.

These gondola cars TransLink is proposing are going to be large with a lot of open space, making it a bit easier for wheelchair users to navigate (to put in perspective, the London Eye capsules accommodate approximately 20 people, TransLink is thinking 30-35). And, if a wheelchair user couldn't disembark on the unloading platform for whatever reason, they can always disembark on the loading platform, and then TransLink can send an open cell up. The next one arrives in less than a minute anyways. Plus, I'm sure there will always be staff at both ends of the gondola that can help in these situations.
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  #309  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Stopping temporarily makes sense.
There would have to be attendants at the terminals who could deal with that.
I think no matter what, there will have to be attendants at stations.

I do see wheelchairs getting on the Gondola in Taipei though. It was quite easy even though both the car and the door are smaller. The car stayed a good minute at the station for loading and unloading.
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  #310  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by deasine View Post
No they don't stop completely, but like I said earlier, a gondola goes incredibly slow at the station areas. There aren't too many videos out there, but this is Nong Ping 360 at Hong Kong. Notice how slow it goes as it approaches this area for about 25 sounds - and this isn't a station.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIFSTvD4yiQ&t=1m7s
This video shows the one in Taipei...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_rH26ucfQg

Go to 0:28 to see how slow they're moving at station.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsmxg1Rd5zs

Go to 4:30 to see the speed at an intermediate station.
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  #311  
Old Posted May 27, 2011, 5:11 AM
Mac Write Mac Write is offline
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I've been a few gondolas and know how they work. Though looking at that video the edge is smaller then would be needed for a wheelchair. Based on that a wide turning basen would be needed or a straight edge with an end then the cabin is turned. Here is the Whistler Peak 2 Peak. Pretty cramped if you ask me.
Video Link

And another view
Video Link
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  #312  
Old Posted May 27, 2011, 5:38 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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TransLink said at the presentation / open house that two options may be considered with respect to bikes and wheelchairs:

- First, design all cars for maximum space. This mean there will be very few seats but that wheelchairs and bikes can be loaded at almost any time, subject to crowding
- Second, design only some cars for maximum space. This means there will essentially be two fleets of cars, one with perimeter seating and another optimized like above for space (aka Peak 2 Peak). The system will still be accessible, but those specific cars designed to comply with the requirement may take some time to arrive from the other end.

The presenter also noted that there may be a possibility that overcrowding may restrict their ability to put bikes onboard during peak hours. I doubt this applies to wheelchairs though.
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  #313  
Old Posted May 27, 2011, 5:43 AM
Porfiry Porfiry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Write View Post
I've been a few gondolas and know how they work. Though looking at that video the edge is smaller then would be needed for a wheelchair. Based on that a wide turning basen would be needed or a straight edge with an end then the cabin is turned. Here is the Whistler Peak 2 Peak. Pretty cramped if you ask me.
1) The P2P is wheelchair accessible.
2) I don't see how it's any worse than a bus.
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  #314  
Old Posted May 27, 2011, 8:46 AM
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The seats can be folded, just like buses.

And the system I posted have a capacity of only 10 per car, which is much much smaller than the one Translink is proposing.
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  #315  
Old Posted May 27, 2011, 5:27 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Write View Post
I've been a few gondolas and know how they work. Though looking at that video the edge is smaller then would be needed for a wheelchair. Based on that a wide turning basen would be needed or a straight edge with an end then the cabin is turned. Here is the Whistler Peak 2 Peak. Pretty cramped if you ask me.
I've pointed out already that the capacity of individual capsules can accommodate 30-35 passengers. This isn't some tourist-resort gondola, it's for public transport and it needs to be able to deliver.

In my post earlier, I also said that the London Eye capsules accommodate approximately 20 people. If you remove the bench in the middle, those capsules do have quite a bit of space. TransLink is proposing something that accommodates almost double the amount of people.


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  #316  
Old Posted May 27, 2011, 6:49 PM
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Its only a 5 minute ride so I would think that seats are not too huge a deal. Limiting each cabin to hold only 1 or 2 bikes at peak is not a big deal, I hope they do not ban them during peak times as this doesn't then seem like a good replacement for buses, at least as far as commuting cyclists are concerned. As for mountain bikers peak times are not an issue as the busiest mountain biking times are in the off hours.
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  #317  
Old Posted May 28, 2011, 2:03 AM
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Only 5 minute to you might not be a big do but to others who can't stand/balance etc 5 minutes is an eternity. I can't stand on a bus or skytrain if I do I will 100% fall and severely injury or even kill someone. Would Translink want to risk being labeled the world's most deadly transit system thanks to not having seats for the disabled? I don't think so.
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  #318  
Old Posted May 28, 2011, 2:08 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Originally Posted by Mac Write View Post
Only 5 minute to you might not be a big do but to others who can't stand/balance etc 5 minutes is an eternity. I can't stand on a bus or skytrain if I do I will 100% fall and severely injury or even kill someone. Would Translink want to risk being labeled the world's most deadly transit system thanks to not having seats for the disabled? I don't think so.
Flip-up seats can be made, as suggested earlier. I believe this was also pointed out by TransLink as well. I see the point of your concern, but TransLink has addressed all of this in their information boards already. For a transit system that's already quite accessible, especially compared to other systems our size, TransLink won't let something not be accessible.
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  #319  
Old Posted May 28, 2011, 2:32 AM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Write View Post
Only 5 minute to you might not be a big do but to others who can't stand/balance etc 5 minutes is an eternity. I can't stand on a bus or skytrain if I do I will 100% fall and severely injury or even kill someone. Would Translink want to risk being labeled the world's most deadly transit system thanks to not having seats for the disabled? I don't think so.
Not that I don't sympathize with this, but a Gondola and a Skytrain or Bus are remarkably differently behaving vehicles.

The Gondola will only accelerate and decelerate once unless theres something wrong.

On the old trolley busses a few of my friends would make a game out of bus surfing, standing without using a handle. On a gondola, that would just be standing.
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  #320  
Old Posted May 28, 2011, 1:25 PM
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On a side note the new trolleybuses, when first introduced, received multiple complaints due to their fast takeoff and braking resulting from their new electric propulsion. They are still capable of doing so I think... just that drivers have had to adjust how they accelerate and brake such that it feels less like a surfboard. The diesel standard (not hybrid) NovaBuses I think are also pretty good at taking off abruptly due to the transmission.
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