Toronto: Tea Party mayor on the rocks

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Just to touch on how a city with a residential condo boom can get into financial trouble, it's quite easy.
Residential property taxes do not come even close to covering the cost of services provided to them, in fact they pay only about half the costs. Commercial property taxes on the other hand pay over and above the cost of services they consume leading to a subsidy for residents.
So when you have a condo boom especially one that displaces commercial properties, the end result is that the city is worse off financially.
The more residential units that come on stream w/o an equilibrating ratio of commercial spaces the worse the problem gets.
The only way to stop that is by doubling residential property taxes. Anyone think that will fly with the public?

I sort of agree with you. And I don't necessarily want to pay more taxes but also don't think the burden of city revenue should necessarily fall on homeowners / property owners either.

A more fair across the board city income tax for residents would make up revenue shortfalls which is increasingly important in a city that is becoming filled with renters rather than owners.

I also don't necessarily think that the condo boom will end anytime soon. With a 1.5% vacancy rate people need places to live and new rental only units aren't being built at all.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

I really don't think Toronto is indifferent to Canadian culture especially considering so much of what we define as Canadian culture is actually produced within the city itself. To say so, is rather simplistic. But your view seems less shaped by actual experience and more by what you've read and other assorted anecdotal evidence.

What makes you think I have not spent plenty of time in Toronto talking with Torontonians?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Presently, the city is in a state of change. This means that there is no underlying unifying culture (though it also doesn't mean there will never be one), but there are still several strong local cultures within that. Having an extended period of rapid change and development causing radical changes to a culture is nothing new or unique to Toronto.

All of which makes Toronto a very exciting place to observe at the moment, as I said earlier. (But everyone seems to have missed that point.)

[mr.John]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

I sort of agree with you. And I don't necessarily want to pay more taxes but also don't think the burden of city revenue should necessarily fall on homeowners / property owners either.

A more fair across the board city income tax for residents would make up revenue shortfalls which is increasingly important in a city that is becoming filled with renters rather than owners.

I also don't necessarily think that the condo boom will end anytime soon. With a 1.5% vacancy rate people need places to live and new rental only units aren't being built at all.

I don't think that's accurate because many condo owners are actually renting out their units with the hope of flipping them a few years down the road, they're treating them as an investment not as homes

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by Waterlooson

Sure, they're both populist movements... but that's about it. The central theme of the Reform Party regarded western alienation... and not conservative values... which could already be had by way of the PC Party of Canada. The Tea Party has nothing to do with a number of states feeling excluded from the decision making process of the US Federal Government... which was what the Reform Party was all about and why it was formed. The Reform Party's political reform policies existed to ameliorate this sense of western alienation.

I'm not so sure the Tea party's origins reflected Conservative Values. It was more of a Libertarian movement and again came from a sense of voter alienation as well (those damn Eastern Elites!).

I'm not so sure the Tea Party even knew what it was until the media helped shape it. It's really a media created movement that has now been co-opted by the more conservative elements of the Republican Party and the anyone but a black man for President set.

Frankly it was quite interesting to see how the media handled and handles the Occupy Movement versus the Tea Party movement -essential painting the Occupiers as fringe radicals and lending very little legitimacy to their movement and instead focusing on the likelihood of rioting.

anyway my original point was, turns to the left and right in Canada are nothing new and to brand Ford as a Tea Party Mayor is a bit ridiculous and and opportunistic way of using the language of the day.

He was really only voted Mayor because the other candidates kinda stunk and he promised to cut taxes and fees. There wasn't any real shift in the thinking of voters.

Miller would have won again had he run and John Tory would have certainly won had he run.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Gotta love the subtle digs...the minimizing Toronto culture...lol. Is it that hard to imagine that Toronto has different cultural offerings from other cities, and richer culture than smaller cities?

Toronto has way more cultural offerings than smaller cities because 10-20% of Toronto's population (those who might partake in non-mainstream culture) is a way bigger market than 10-20% of the population of Flin Flon.

I have extended family born and raised in places across Canada ranging from villages with a population of 114 to the heart of The Big Smoke. Rubbing shoulders with them and their friends and neighbours has shattered my views of culturally sophisticated city slickers. Much of the "mainstream" is quite similar in most places these days regardless of population, and the reason that it might appear that more Torontonians like foreign cinema or opera is because there are simply more Torontonians than Cape Bretoners in sheer numbers.

This is not just true of Torontonians, but also of Montrealers, New Yorkers, Parisians, etc.

The only areas where I find there is a big difference in favour of big cities is in fashion and exposure to more international cuisines.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I heartily disagree. The cultures derived from those immigrant communities extend beyond their immediate ethnic community for "a few generations", and go much deeper than watching movies from those countries. And I'd also disagree that its not unique to Toronto - certainly multiculturalism exists elsewhere, but rarely to the same extent (maybe New York and London). People growing up here are so heavily exposed to a multitude of various cultures on a personal level (thats the important part) that at least a few of them just naturally become a part of our world view, in addition to a Canadian one and whatever ancestral culture we have. A sort of inherent familiarity with certain other far-flung parts of the world. I'm not explaining this idea very well, but hopefully you get the basic gist of it.

The idea that Toronto is basically got rural, white Southern Ontario with a bunch of folks from India and Jamaica and Portugal doing their thing around them is...very inaccurate.

Then how do you explain Rob Ford? I have met scores of Torontonians who appear to be exactly like him culturally. He is roughly the same age as me and has never lived anywhere else but Toronto as far as I know. The city has been incredibly diverse throughout his lifetime, yet none of it has seemed to rub off on him.

Now, Mr. Ford is not really my style but what I am trying to say is not that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the way he is. But please people don't pretend that people like Rob Ford don't exist in large numbers in Toronto when the friggin' prototype of the species is sitting in the bloody mayor's chair!

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Toronto has way more cultural offerings than smaller cities because 10-20% of Toronto's population (those who might partake in non-mainstream culture) is a way bigger market than 10-20% of the population of Flin Flon.

I have extended family born and raised in places across Canada ranging from villages with a population of 114 to the heart of The Big Smoke. Rubbing shoulders with them and their friends and neighbours has shattered my views of culturally sophisticated city slickers. Much of the "mainstream" is quite similar in most places these days regardless of population, and the reason that it might appear that more Torontonians like foreign cinema or opera is because there are simply more Torontonians than Cape Bretoners in sheer numbers.

This is not just true of Torontonians, but also of Montrealers, New Yorkers, Parisians, etc.

The only areas where I find there is a big difference in favour of big cities is in fashion and exposure to more international cuisines.

Well the internet has pretty much laid waste to the idea that one has to be a certain place to experience certain cultural offerings.

There is a difference however in larger centers where you find outgrowths of new culture and movements (if there are any left). They are still the incubators of new culture versus the appetite for it.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Then how do you explain Rob Ford? I have met scores of Torontonians who appear to be exactly like him culturally. He is roughly the same age as me and has never lived anywhere else but Toronto as far as I know. The city has been incredibly diverse throughout his lifetime, yet none of it has seemed to rub off on him.

Now, Mr. Ford is not really my style but what I am trying to say is not that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the way he is. But please people don't pretend that people like Rob Ford don't exist in large numbers in Toronto when the friggin' prototype of the species is sitting in the bloody mayor's chair!

Because, Etobicoke isn't anything like Toronto anymore than Roncesvalles Village is like the Beach is like Leslieville is like Rosedale or Yorkville or Moss Park or East York is like Scarborough.

You can live in the city of Toronto and many people do and their only exposure to say downtown is the Santa Claus Parade or to see the Xmas window at the Bay.

People are very attached to their neighborhoods here.

[Bigtime]

I thought this thread was us laughing at Rob Ford, what happened?

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

Reading the Globe this morning discovered that Toronto is the least liked city in Canada by Canadians. No surprise -surely the reasons are nebulous and probably have more to do with media concentration and general fame or infamy.

"Discovered"? This is news to you?

Not sure if this applies to every country on Earth, but it seems obvious given the way we are as a country. Toronto is the biggest city, so naturally it gets the most dislike. And as a result of being the biggest city (and biggest extended metro area, by far) - Torontonians on average really don't have much need to look outside their area. Toronto (the horseshoe, really) is almost a self-contained nation for all practical purposes to the average person. It's astounding how many people I've met over the years who've hardly left the area - they maybe have been to Mexico during the winter, but they've never seen 95% of their own country. I've had countless discussions over the years about where the geographical centre of the country is, and it's astounding how many from the GTA don't actually have a clue. But they don't really need to know.

It's just what happens when you have so damn much stuff concentrated in a small area. The few Manhattanites I know are like this too, although I don't know that NYC gets quite the dislike in the US.

[jmt18325]

Oh yeah, New York does.

[isaidso]

Isn't Tea Party a US political movement? Ford being right wing doesn't make him a Tea Party mayor, it makes him a Conservative. People are watching too move US television. This is Canada.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

All of which makes Toronto a very exciting place to observe at the moment, as I said earlier. (But everyone seems to have missed that point.)

I know, its an accurate assessment of the current situation, but you also said "if Toronto was to have a civic culture it would have one by now and that it now too late because..." to which I was disagreeing, being that it has had one, and could potentially have one again in the future.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Then how do you explain Rob Ford? I have met scores of Torontonians who appear to be exactly like him culturally. He is roughly the same age as me and has never lived anywhere else but Toronto as far as I know. The city has been incredibly diverse throughout his lifetime, yet none of it has seemed to rub off on him.

Now, Mr. Ford is not really my style but what I am trying to say is not that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the way he is. But please people don't pretend that people like Rob Ford don't exist in large numbers in Toronto when the friggin' prototype of the species is sitting in the bloody mayor's chair!

Rob Ford grew up in 1960s and 70s Etobicoke - quite a different world from the rest of the city in more recent decades (central Etobicoke is still a really different world mind you, the last remaining bit of white-bred suburbia left in the city). Keep in mind I'm talking from the perspective of the <30 crowd. The Rob Ford archetype is one of the aging conservative suburban white guy - one that still exists, but is rapidly disappearing. And of course, we're talking about 2.5 million people here, obviously not every single one of them is going to have had the exact same experiences and opinions and personality.

[Ramako]

This talk of the election of Rob Ford being proof of a large white, culturally inept or "red-neck" population of Toronto couldn't be more off-base. In reality, a whole lot of immigrants voted for Ford, especially those living in the suburbs. Believe it or not, immigrants often care more about things like taxes and the quality of city services than building bike lanes or arts funding. Some of the most conservative people I know are immigrants.

The real divide, regardless of a person's race or origin, was between the suburbs and the downtown. The suburban voters tend to see the city as little more than a means to an end, are focussed only on their taxes and their commute times, and are generally disinterested in investing back into the city.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Ramako

This talk of the election of Rob Ford being proof of a large white, culturally inept or "red-neck" population of Toronto couldn't be more off-base. In reality, a whole lot of immigrants voted for Ford, especially those living in the suburbs. Believe it or not, immigrants often care more about things like taxes and the quality of city services than building bike lanes or arts funding. Some of the most conservative people I know are immigrants.

So based on what I've read in this thread Rob Ford won because of money and the ethnic vote.

The same phenomenon exists in the Vancouver area. Many immigrant groups seem to be quite a bit more conservative than the rest of the general population and they often end up voting for seemingly unlikely candidates simply because they are aligned on some key issues. Certainly there are lots of people in municipal politics who think they only care about the residential tax rate for example.

[softee]

Rob Ford got 47% of the popular vote, so overall more Torontonians (including many in the former boroughs) voted against him than for him.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

A more fair across the board city income tax for residents would make up revenue shortfalls which is increasingly important in a city that is becoming filled with renters rather than owners.

This argument comes up all the time and I can't help but laugh.

How do you think my landlord pays the property taxes for the building my rented apartment is located in? Money doesn't just float to his bank account from some source that isn't a tenant!

Here is another one for you: the small business that employs me rents one of the buildings it is located in. Should it be charged a corporate income tax by the city in addition to the property taxes that it pays indirectly through rent to its landlord?

Honestly, when you make the argument that renters don't pay taxes, you're really making the argument that "property owners that rent out units in their buildings don't pay taxes". In reality, they're the biggest tax payers of all. And you're proposing more taxes on top of their source of income?

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by vid

This argument comes up all the time and I can't help but laugh.

How do you think my landlord pays the property taxes for the building my rented apartment is located in? Money doesn't just float to his bank account from some source that isn't a tenant!

Here is another one for you: the small business that employs me rents one of the buildings it is located in. Should it be charged a corporate income tax by the city in addition to the property taxes that it pays indirectly through rent to its landlord?

Honestly, when you make the argument that renters don't pay taxes, you're really making the argument that "property owners that rent out units in their buildings don't pay taxes". In reality, they're the biggest tax payers of all. And you're proposing more taxes on top of their source of income?

In a city like Toronto which is increasingly burdened with costs that the province won't contribute to, yes.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by mr.John

In all seriousness how does the so-called financial capital of Canada, the largest city in the country, manage to rack up a $774 million budget shortfall,aren't people living in those massive condo towers paying property taxes? where is the money going?

You will get deficits if you have no ability to raise revenues. Toronto was built to manage and fund its old interior, where service delivery was quite cheap. Toronto is also the only city I can think of which is the biggest center whiten its country yet has no special administrative or financial powers. Every developed nation has some type of situation set up where its largest metro can prosper and grow.

Amalgamation and downloading of services has a lot to do with it. People forget (or don't like to acknowledge ) how large Toronto is. It has the 6th largest budget in the Country after Ottawa and some provinces.

Ford is a moron because he plays ideology in a municipal setting where it has no purpose. His implosion is not surprising what is surprising is how much little noise the populace has made, they rumble from time to time but maybe its still quite early but I suspect by year 3 they will demand he steps down.