The-where-should-RyanD-move thread

[RyanD]

/depressing rant

The sad thing about this seemingly never-ending-hellish housing market Denver is SO proud of, is that I'm going to want to start a family one day and do so affordably. After many nights / days / weeks of talking, I think we (fiancee and I) are going to try our best to live somewhere more affordable with a better city amenity (it's shockingly possible now). It's very unfortunate but this just isn't it for me anymore. At least for now... Could be September, could be next year, but I have a pretty strong feeling it'll be soon.

/end depressing rant

[bunt_q]

Aurora, my man, Aurora. That's where the future of this metro lies.

[DownhomeDenver]

Originally Posted by RyanD

/depressing rant

The sad thing about this seemingly never-ending-hellish housing market Denver is SO proud of, is that I'm going to want to start a family one day and do so affordably. After many nights / days / weeks of talking, I think we (fiancee and I) are going to try our best to live somewhere more affordable with a better city amenity (it's shockingly possible now). It's very unfortunate but this just isn't it for me anymore. At least for now... Could be September, could be next year, but I have a pretty strong feeling it'll be soon.

/end depressing rant

Find a rich lawyer husband. Or get adopted by one or something.

[DenverPoke]

Originally Posted by RyanD

/depressing rant

The sad thing about this seemingly never-ending-hellish housing market Denver is SO proud of, is that I'm going to want to start a family one day and do so affordably. After many nights / days / weeks of talking, I think we (fiancee and I) are going to try our best to live somewhere more affordable with a better city amenity (it's shockingly possible now). It's very unfortunate but this just isn't it for me anymore. At least for now... Could be September, could be next year, but I have a pretty strong feeling it'll be soon.

/end depressing rant

Chicago? Property taxes are a beast in IL. Not many cities with strong urban environments are overly affordable. Pay will probably be somewhat better than Denver though.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by DenverPoke

Chicago? Property taxes are a beast in IL. Not many cities with strong urban environments are overly affordable. Pay will probably be somewhat better than Denver though.

Let's consider Chicago. Rents are substantially cheaper. Like much cheaper. Minimum wage creeping up to 13 an hour (I make more but still). AND high property taxes or not, I can still get a condo in a good neighborhood for mid to high 100k's. I think high property taxes will still make Chicago a better choice for affordability. Plus a whole hell of a better urban enclave. Winters.. That's it. That's the trade off.

[DenverPoke]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Let's consider Chicago. Rents are substantially cheaper. Like much cheaper. Minimum wage creeping up to 13 an hour (I make more but still). AND high property taxes or not, I can still get a condo in a good neighborhood for mid to high 100k's. I think high property taxes will still make Chicago a better choice for affordability. Plus a whole hell of a better urban enclave. Winters.. That's it. That's the trade off.

Having lived in Chicago, I think you will be unpleasantly surprised how expensive it is to live there. No doubt it is a great city though! I want to move to Seattle, but likely not happening anytime soon. Personally, I feel Denver is way overpriced for what you get so I don't blame anyone for leaving. All the best if you do move, you do great work and will be missed.

[TakeFive]

Just when you think the insanity that is Denver's housing market can't go on... it does. Then one day it stops, quietly. The party ends.

I just haven't seen much of THIS in Denver of late.
Jun 30, 2015 by Hayley Ringle, Phoenix Business Journal

Fast-growing human resources tech company Zenefits is opening a second Phoenix-area office in Tempe this fall, and plans to hire another 700 employees. The San Francisco-based company will move into 135,000 square feet on five floors of the new Hayden Ferry Lakeside 3 off Tempe Town Lake. Zenefits signed a 10-year lease for the Parkway Properties Inc.-owned building, which is under construction now.

Zenefits moved into a nearly 100,000-square-foot office at the Galleria Corporate Centre in Old Town Scottsdale in November. It was the first major expansion beyond its San Francisco headquarters.

Zenefits is considered to be the fastest-growing software-as-a-service company in history. In May, the company announced it had raised $500 million in Series C funding and has a $4.5 billion valuation.

Zenefits started in 2013 and has more than 10,000 business customers in 48 states.

There was also this announcement today:

As DriveTime Automotive Group Inc. prepares to move its Phoenix headquarters to a new Tempe office and hire 650 employees within the year, the U.S.’s largest used car dealership also was recognized as a best place to work for information technology employees.

It's a relatively small sample size and just because Denver's growth isn't always so visible doesn't mean it's not there. Clearly it has been.

Yes, Denver has typically been somewhat less affordable than many places but at current levels... well it's good for those that have been there awhile and own real estate already. But for newcomers or those that haven't yet bought it's miserable.

Denver doesn't seem to have the strong economic drivers of the Bay area or Seattle, Austin etc. The Google/Facebook/Apple's of the tech world seem to be skipping over Denver for the most part.

It just seems logical that Denver will face a shrinking pool of companies willing to seriously consider the Denver metro area. If you're a growing company that wants to expand and be west of the Mississippi why not anywhere in Texas, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Reno or Boise where the cost of doing business is much lower?

Ultimately it's your job base that matters. Renters can pack up and move on a dime.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Let's consider Chicago. Rents are substantially cheaper. Like much cheaper. Minimum wage creeping up to 13 an hour (I make more but still). AND high property taxes or not, I can still get a condo in a good neighborhood for mid to high 100k's. I think high property taxes will still make Chicago a better choice for affordability. Plus a whole hell of a better urban enclave. Winters.. That's it. That's the trade off.

The thing about Chicago that would concern me is that they have some serous underlying financial issues. While I wouldn't guess it would go the way of Detroit, it's not a place where I'd want to plant any roots. It's still a Big Financial Center though. Would a entity like the venerable Chicago Board of Trade or other corporations consider heading for the exits? I wouldn't hazard a guess.

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by RyanD

I think we (fiancee and I) are going to try our best to live somewhere more affordable with a better city amenity (it's shockingly possible now).

Where were you thinking? Because it seems like most anywhere with a better or similar urban experience is as expensive or more so than Denver... Or at least in any neighborhood you'd want to live in. Or maybe I should be asking what Denver is lacking that you can find in a cheaper city?

[Cirrus]

If I were looking for a top-line urban city that's also affordable, the two that would top my list would be Chicago and Philadelphia. Very similar places. Shockingly cheap property.

Also, we should've anticipated RyanD would join the Denver urbanist diaspora as soon as we made him a mod. Every Denver mod in the history of SSP has left for a more urban city. Sorry about that.

[bunt_q]

Ooh, make me a mod, would you please? I promise I'll behave. Then in a few years, I'll be ready to jump ship too.

Of course, we've also never had a mountainman as a mod in the history of SSP. Profound ambivalence toward the mountains is in the job description.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

If I were looking for a top-line urban city that's also affordable, the two that would top my list would be Chicago and Philadelphia. Very similar places. Shockingly cheap property.

Also, we should've anticipated RyanD would join the Denver urbanist diaspora as soon as we made him a mod. Every Denver mod in the history of SSP has left for a more urban city. Sorry about that.

Yep. Bingo. When we were in Chicago, we decided to check the for sale / rent in Uptown / Edgewater / Andersonville (where we were staying) just for fun. Much cheaper than Denver, even rents. Sure it gets cold and is a little stabby sometimes but you have to ask yourself if that's a viable tradeoff for a top-line urban city.

That's also a funny statistic. Maybe it's destiny of the Denver mods.

[Cirrus]

Seriously though, look at Philly too. Pros compared to Chicago: Better weather, only an hour from New York, IMO it's more walkable (though that's debatable). Cons: Fewer/shorter skyscrapers, smaller transit system.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

make me a mod... in a few years, I'll be ready to jump ship too.

You can't be trusted. You keep coming back. Honolulu... Iraq...

[The Dirt]

How does Philadelphia's stabbiness compare to Chicago's? What about it's shootiness?

[DenverPoke]

Again, the COL is NOT cheaper in Chicago than Denver. Will you get more bang for your buck from an urban standpoint n Chicago? Of course. There could be many reasons to want to move to Chicago from Denver, but affordability isn't one of them.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by DenverPoke

There could be many reasons to want to move to Chicago from Denver, but affordability isn't one of them.

You are just wrong on this. I concur with Ryan, Chicago today is far more affordable than Denver today. It's not even close. I know zillow isn't the most reliable, but go on there and look at the South Loop - you can get a 2 br/2 ba condo in a new building there for under $300k. That doesn't even exist in Denver, let alone at that price. I'm not sure what you're factoring in for cost of living... but if I can own a place for $200k, spend $100 for a CTA pass (transit that, unlike RTD, is actually useful, and might convince me to not pay for a car)... property taxes might be about double, but that's still only an extra $150/mo. Eggs are going to have to cost a LOT to make up the difference.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

You are just wrong on this. I concur with Ryan, Chicago today is far more affordable than Denver today. It's not even close. I know zillow isn't the most reliable, but go on there and look at the South Loop - you can get a 2 br/2 ba condo in a new building there for under $300k. That doesn't even exist in Denver, let alone at that price. I'm not sure what you're factoring in for cost of living... but if I can own a place for $200k, spend $100 for a CTA pass (transit that, unlike RTD, is actually useful, and might convince me to not pay for a car)... property taxes might be about double, but that's still only an extra $150/mo. Eggs are going to have to cost a LOT to make up the difference.

Where's BCP to weigh in on this? Since he's the only guy here who recently lived in Denver and lives in Chicago and all.

The sales tax is three times what it is in Denver, which would suck. But income tax will be lower at 3.75 vs 4.63%.

Isn't the South Loop kind of shoot-y? Hate for Ryan to be dodging small arms fire on the way to the local market.

[DenverPoke]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

You are just wrong on this. I concur with Ryan, Chicago today is far more affordable than Denver today. It's not even close. I know zillow isn't the most reliable, but go on there and look at the South Loop - you can get a 2 br/2 ba condo in a new building there for under $300k. That doesn't even exist in Denver, let alone at that price. I'm not sure what you're factoring in for cost of living... but if I can own a place for $200k, spend $100 for a CTA pass (transit that, unlike RTD, is actually useful, and might convince me to not pay for a car)... property taxes might be about double, but that's still only an extra $150/mo. Eggs are going to have to cost a LOT to make up the difference.

I don't disagree that putting a roof over your head in Chicago may be a bit cheaper in certain parts of town, but everything else costs more. Food, insurance, entertainment, transportation, taxes...it all adds up. Clearly Denver is an expensive place to be right now, but packing up and heading for Chicago won't come any cheaper, at least not in a part of town you want to be in.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Where's BCP to weigh in on this? Since he's the only guy here who recently lived in Denver and lives in Chicago and all.

The sales tax is three times what it is in Denver, which would suck. But income tax will be lower at 3.75 vs 4.63%.

Isn't the South Loop kind of shoot-y? Hate for Ryan to be dodging small arms fire on the way to the local market.

I buy anything big online anyways. Not like I'm going to buy a new camera at a local store that's marked up plus sales tax!

I was thinking the north side along the red line. I really like that area.

So we figured it out this morning financially. For a 350k place here in Denver, property taxes will we around 1200 a year, same as if you were to buy place in Chicago for 175k. This is the catch. We can afford a mortgage comfortably with property tax and hoa in Chicago on a 175k condo. Can't even afford the base mortgage of an average Denver place. Yes it's more expensive on paper as far as percentages go, but it's more affordable because your base is cheaper.

EDIT :If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a bullet? Lol. Shooty is fine. It's the amenity of a real big city.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Where's BCP to weigh in on this? Since he's the only guy here who recently lived in Denver and lives in Chicago and all.

The sales tax is three times what it is in Denver, which would suck. But income tax will be lower at 3.75 vs 4.63%.

Isn't the South Loop kind of shoot-y? Hate for Ryan to be dodging small arms fire on the way to the local market.

Sales tax isn't triple, it's 9%, vs, 8% here.

Property tax is hard to compare since it's not a fixed percentage. We have gallagherized mill levies, they have homeowner exemptions and equalizers... but it's roughly double, at least in the city. (I know in the Chicago burbs, the disparity can be much greater.)

South Loop isn't shooty. At least not the parts with the glassy new towers, which is where I'd be looking if I moved there. It's basically buildings like Spire (and also priced like Spire was early on).