What to do with 16th Street Mall (split from Denver Dev thread)

[awholeparade]

Originally Posted by RyanD

I think we were, or still are(?), taking the shuttles off on Sunday so bikes can use it? I remember this from earlier in the summer and, I kid you not, I was alone in a shuttle on 17th Street at 1 in the afternoon.

Nope, not the case. Bikes are only allowed to be on 16th on Sunday, but the shuttles still run.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by RyanD

I think we were, or still are(?), taking the shuttles off on Sunday so bikes can use it? I remember this from earlier in the summer and, I kid you not, I was alone in a shuttle on 17th Street at 1 in the afternoon.

To my knowledge they only removed the buses for Meet in the Street

They allow bikes on Saturday now, and that happened around the same time meet in the street was announced. So knowing our local paper it may have ended up in one confusing DP article implying that they are removing buses for cyclists.

Sunday bikes have been allowed on the mall for years as ahwoleparade mentioned.

Personally I was opposed to both, but am coming around for meet in the street given how seldom the shuttle runs on weekends with the same number of stops -rendering it virtually unusable-. Combined with the enhanced pedestrian atmosphere on 16th those few days.

Biking on the weekend I am still not sure of.

[The Dirt]

I always noticed that the buses would stack up 4 buses deep at a single stop going in the direction of Civic Center but, if you want to catch a bus going towards DUS, you could walk the entire length of the mall and only have one or two buses catch up to you. It's really weird.

[DenvertoLA]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I can visualize splitting the buses between 16th & 15th Streets and adding dedicated bike lanes to 16th Street. It de-emphasizes the "promenade," emphasizes moving people but maybe this would be best?

Santa Monica

Courtesy of experienceLA

Per Wikipedia:

A city of 85,000 people I get the impression that it's part Boulder and part Breckenridge. Whether surfer dudes and homeless-by-choice stoners are comparable... not sure about that.

Not sure the two are comparable and I'll assume the challenges are uniquely different.

I' actually work on the near the promenade and it gets the job done very well. The city of SM has built more 7 parking structures with at least 8 stories in height to support the masses coming to it. If Denver went this route I think they would need to do the same, just not in as grand of a scale.

Santa Monica is not like Boulder, Venice is more like Boulder. (right next door) Pearl street is similar to 3rd street if that's what you are getting at.

Since the buses are gone people really explore the whole promenade. Valley folks make a day of it and people commonly spend 6-8 hours there.

[Cirrus]

Santa Moncia's mall is 3 blocks long, and it's perpendicular (rather than parallel) to most transit trips. The transit issues there are completely different.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

I' actually work on the near the promenade and it gets the job done very well. The city of SM has built more 7 parking structures with at least 8 stories in height to support the masses coming to it. If Denver went this route I think they would need to do the same, just not in as grand of a scale.

Santa Monica is not like Boulder, Venice is more like Boulder. (right next door) Pearl street is similar to 3rd street if that's what you are getting at.

Since the buses are gone people really explore the whole promenade. Valley folks make a day of it and people commonly spend 6-8 hours there.

Lucky you. Sounds like a real cool area.

The challenge for Denver is to make 16th street more appealing, more of a shopping (entertainment) destination. I can visualize potential even as I see obstacles.

Perhaps as Cirrus unwittingly suggests, cutting the Mall into three block stretches would help.

With respect to the buses I'm agnostic. Perhaps a 15th/16th Street couplet (as BG918 calls it) is a good idea. That would put (shuttle) bus service along 15th/16th and 18th/19th streets, although currently the latter only runs six hours a day. The advantage of adding 15th street is that it brings riders, including convention goers one block closer to many hotel rooms and the Convention Center. There's often convention traffic on weekends also.

[bunt_q]

There are 125,000 workers in downtown Denver, to say nothing of residents and local passers through. I could not possibly give fewer shits how convenient the shuttle is for convention goers. A mall shuttle couplet is an absolutely terrible idea for the actual city and actual everyday transit and mobility in any number of ways.

In fact, I think the whole notion of turning the 16th Street Mall into anything like Santa Monica is a terrible idea. Breaking it up is a terrible idea. Trying to turn our main downtown pedestrian thoroughfare into a place where people come sit for 6 hours is an unnecessary, and possibly terrible, idea. Frankly, trying to sanitize the mall and turn it into a shopping destination for rich white people a la Cherry Creek is a terrible idea. I'm sure it's tragically painful for folks not having an Apple Store downtown to buy ancillary trinkets for their $900 gadgets. And it's decidedly less sexy to have Payless Shoes and Ross and TJMax downtown. But perhaps it's not a terrible thing, particularly if we're all to believe mhays that tossing 70% of income toward housing is perfectly reasonable in the big city.

This is all a fun hypothetical, but let's not lose sight of the fact that nearly everything being discussed is fundamentally a TERRIBLE IDEA. The 16th Street Mall is not THAT broken. It works, it's busy, it's a little dirty, but it's still the most vibrant spot for humans anywhere in a 900-mile radius. It's not Cherry Creek, and that makes some pretty people uncomfortable. But any plan that calls for a complete overhaul risks tossing the baby with the bath water and is a terrible idea.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

^^^

Well we got rid of dumpsters and are starting to find 'creative ways' to use our alleys... I'm starting to lose hope on the mall not getting sanitized within the next couple of years. Read: 16th Street cycle-track, 15th/17th shuttle couplet, sanitized retail.

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

There are 125,000 workers in downtown Denver, to say nothing of residents and local passers through. I could not possibly give fewer shits how convenient the shuttle is for convention goers. A mall shuttle couplet is an absolutely terrible idea for the actual city and actual everyday transit and mobility in any number of ways.

In fact, I think the whole notion of turning the 16th Street Mall into anything like Santa Monica is a terrible idea. Breaking it up is a terrible idea. Trying to turn our main downtown pedestrian thoroughfare into a place where people come sit for 6 hours is an unnecessary, and possibly terrible, idea. Frankly, trying to sanitize the mall and turn it into a shopping destination for rich white people a la Cherry Creek is a terrible idea. I'm sure it's tragically painful for folks not having an Apple Store downtown to buy ancillary trinkets for their $900 gadgets. And it's decidedly less sexy to have Payless Shoes and Ross and TJMax downtown. But perhaps it's not a terrible thing, particularly if we're all to believe mhays that tossing 70% of income toward housing is perfectly reasonable in the big city.

This is all a fun hypothetical, but let's not lose sight of the fact that nearly everything being discussed is fundamentally a TERRIBLE IDEA. The 16th Street Mall is not THAT broken. It works, it's busy, it's a little dirty, but it's still the most vibrant spot for humans anywhere in a 900-mile radius. It's not Cherry Creek, and that makes some pretty people uncomfortable. But any plan that calls for a complete overhaul risks tossing the baby with the bath water and is a terrible idea.

Im really surprised how many people see value in the buses on 16th street. As someone who works downtown I find them utterly useless.....there main purpose seems to be: 1) transporting lazy fat people; 2)transporting downtown workers who are tired of dealing with the vagrant mall rats that they would prefer to take a bus for 2 blocks than walk (no time savings whatsoever); 3)transporting tourists who dont know any better.

If you actually want to get from one end of the mall to the other you walk a block or two to the metro ride and take that. And if you are only going a block or two, WALK! The mall ride is only slightly faster than walking and encourages laziness.

I honestly see no added value of the mallride other than encouraging laziness. It is not an effective nor efficient mode of transport.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

I honestly see no added value of the mallride other than encouraging laziness. It is not an effective nor efficient mode of transport.

50,000 people per day disagree with you. Maybe you should get off your high horse and see the world as it is, not as you wish it were.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

Im really surprised how many people see value in the buses on 16th street. As someone who works downtown I find them utterly useless.....there main purpose seems to be: 1) transporting lazy fat people; 2)transporting downtown workers who are tired of dealing with the vagrant mall rats that they would prefer to take a bus for 2 blocks than walk (no time savings whatsoever); 3)transporting tourists who dont know any better.

If you actually want to get from one end of the mall to the other you walk a block or two to the metro ride and take that. And if you are only going a block or two, WALK! The mall ride is only slightly faster than walking and encourages laziness.

I honestly see no added value of the mallride other than encouraging laziness. It is not an effective nor efficient mode of transport.

What about those who can't walk, or have a hard time walking? Seriously... What's going to happen when you're old and decrepit? Y'all are shooting yourselves in the foot. Keep the existing infrastructure, not everything has to be about walking and biking. Good lord.

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by RyanD

What about those who can't walk, or have a hard time walking? Seriously... What's going to happen when you're old and decrepit? Y'all are shooting yourselves in the foot. Keep the existing infrastructure, not everything has to be about walking and biking. Good lord.

I never said it has to be about walking and biking, but I did say I see nearly no utility in the 16th street mall shuttle (a view shared by the majority of my co-workers). It doesn't add anything, in my experience, to the 'downtown' experience' and I think people would adapt perfectly well to its elimination.

As for those less mobile.....I dont think a 1-2 block walk is an undue burden to take the metro ride, and there are plenty of alternative modes such as pedicabs. And I dont know why there needs to be a specials stipulation only for the 16th street mall when it comes to free transportation for the elderly and disabled. That is an issue that should be addressed on a city wide basis.

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

50,000 people per day disagree with you. Maybe you should get off your high horse and see the world as it is, not as you wish it were.

ha!

My apologies I didn't realize there was no room for dissenting opinions on this board.

As I said above I think those people would adapt quite easily if the mall shuttle was eliminated. For short distances people will walk (good thing IMO) and for longer distances people will take the metroride (much more efficient IMO).

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

metro ride

What about everything else outside this time-frame:

MetroRide Schedule:

Monday – Friday
6:00 a.m. – 9:00 a.m.
3:30 p.m. – 6:30 p.m.

People are using the shuttle after 9am, before 3:30pm, Saturday's and Sunday's as well as in the evening.

That being said, what ever would you do with the empty guide-ways on the mall? Obviously cyclists would be all over it and it would turn solely bike / ped. The city isn't going to fork out the money to change the mall so the shuttles can't run on it. It's a huge asset and it's going to stay.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

ha!

My apologies I didn't realize there was no room for dissenting opinions on this board.

As I said above I think those people would adapt quite easily if the mall shuttle was eliminated. For short distances people will walk (good thing IMO) and for longer distances people will take the metroride (much more efficient IMO).

No, there's no room for assuming that people are riding the shuttle because they are fat and lazy. In my opinion, that's just you (and the majority of your co-workers) being judgmental assholes. People aren't shy about telling me when I'm an a-hole (frequently), so I'm not hesitant to call a spade a spade.

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

No, there's no room for assuming that people are riding the shuttle because they are fat and lazy. In my opinion, that's just you (and the majority of your co-workers) being judgmental assholes. People aren't shy about telling me when I'm an a-hole (frequently), so I'm not hesitant to call a spade a spade.

I never said anything about people being fat, so I guess YOU are the dick for equating laziness with obesity. You are also a dick for your straw man argument that hardly reflects what I actually said.

[Mulligan]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

Im really surprised how many people see value in the buses on 16th street. As someone who works downtown I find them utterly useless.....there main purpose seems to be: 1) transporting lazy fat people; 2)transporting downtown workers who are tired of dealing with the vagrant mall rats that they would prefer to take a bus for 2 blocks than walk (no time savings whatsoever); 3)transporting tourists who dont know any better.

If you actually want to get from one end of the mall to the other you walk a block or two to the metro ride and take that. And if you are only going a block or two, WALK! The mall ride is only slightly faster than walking and encourages laziness.

I honestly see no added value of the mallride other than encouraging laziness. It is not an effective nor efficient mode of transport.

Yea you did.

[Cirrus]

You cannot move 50,000 people per day with pedicabs. If you tried, there would be no room on the mall for pedestrians or trees. I don't think you guys advocating for taking out the buses understand just how many people 50,000 is, or how much room it takes to move them.

Bunt is 100% right. This whole discussion is the very definition of a solution in search of a problem. It's insane.

[Cirrus]

One more thing:

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

My apologies I didn't realize there was no room for dissenting opinions on this board.

Vehement disagreement ≠ censorship. You haven't been moderated. No one said you're not allowed to hold your opinions, only that your opinions on this topic are wrong. If you think that equates to censoring dissent, it seems to me you're the one with a problem.

[mhays]

I like the mall how it is. It's a great street. And it seems to be successful as a transit connection, even though it's a mystery why healthy people use it to go less than half its length. It's the center axis of Downtown, and any reroute would be less convenient.

Conventioneers are important too, particularly since many have luggage. Actually visitor impressions and first impressions are hugely important for economic development. But 16th is fine. It also puts users on your most photogenic street.

Bunt, I didn't say spending 70% on housing is fine for most people. Just that people do it at the far end of the spectrum (single person or couple, no car, no kid, low expenses), and the housing market reflects the fact that such people exist.