A new downtown for our metro

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by logan5

I just don't see it happening for Surrey. Skytrain has been in "downtown" Surrey for over 20 years now and then amount of TOD has been minimal given that 20 year window. Meanwhile Metrotown and Brentwood are booming and leaving Surrey in the dust. Even Coquitlam Centre looks to be on par with Surrey as far as TOD goes - and they don't even have rapid transit yet. Every new Skytrain extension means that Surrey takes a back seat to someone else (unfortunately).

Once the Broadway Line is completed, Central Broadway will probly attract a lot more office development which would limit the need for an alternate location for a major office district, although I still think Metrotown will still get a significant amount of office development. But Central Broadway will function quite well as a downtown area with rapid transit serving its main office district as well as the surrounding dense neighbourhoods. Something the Expo Line does not do for the downtown peninsula.

1) proximity and 2) reputation. That's hurt Surrey. The population center has been around Vancouver and Surrey is still seen by many as being "way over there a million miles away in the boondocks."

And on #2, you can modify the above saying to be Surrey is "way over there a million miles away in the boondocks with nothing but rednecks (crack addicts if you're WarrenC12 ) and cars up on blocks"

Unfortunately it has taken 20 years to start shaking off some of that reputation that's been built up this side of the fraser and if you read half the threads on these forums with [Surrey] in the title, there's still plenty of that reputation to shake off.

Burnaby on the other hand is a rock throwing distance away from Vancouver, you don't have to cross a river, and it never had a reputation to shake off.

Ok well I'm forgetting #3 against Surrey, a lot of open land. Surrey land wise is the size of Burnaby + New Westminster + Vancouver combined. As it started out late to the gate, it still has a lot of land to develop. The total develop able land still remaining in Surrey is = to the whole of Burnaby. So just think of Burnaby for a moment, the entire city, with nothing but trees. That's how much land Surrey _still_ has.

So it is easier out here to sell new townhouse complexes or row houses than it is to sell high-rises. That's changing, but just saying "cuz they didn't do it in 20 years" doesn't tell the whole picture.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yes, the DTES is still a mess. However I'm not claiming that it's changing or going to change any time soon.

Surrey Central is also a mess, and I think much like the DTES, it's not going to change either. It certainly hasn't so far, despite all of the "progress".

If you think Surrey Central is a mess like the DTES you really need to give your head a shake. It has definite areas that need to be fixed still and open lots that need to be filled, but a mess like the DTES? I just don't see it and I don't think you've really spent any time in the DTES to know what a truely sad an horrible area it is.

My suspicion is if you've spent any time at SFU Surrey, you've realized it isn't as bad as people make out, but to uphold your hard-line Vancouver > all forum persona, you're just saying it because you're programmed to.

That said, it definitely has a lot of room for improvement I don't disagree, but the original poster is talking 20+ years. Just look how much has changed in 10 years around here. Heck look at Brentwood 10 years ago. It had like 3 highrises and didn't even have any sidewalks down many of the main streets off of Lougheed...

A lot can and will change I'm sure of it.

Still don't think any town center will supplant downtown Vancouver though. It just has too far a head start, and while stats clearly show living next to the ocean isn't the end-all-be-all, I won't argue with the fact downtown Vancouver is probably the most picturesque of areas in the entire region. Heck when I have friends visiting me from over seas, we spend a large chunk of the time visiting areas and sites in Vancouver specifically.

It is still the region's center and will be for probably my lifetime.

We should all make sure not to disparage what has been built in Vancouver. It is a truly great city in my opinion, DTES and all.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

There is no comparison to any neighbourhood in Vancouver. Think of the British Properties, but on the waterfront. Add in a big population of super high net worth individuals who made it big from Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, Boeing, Costco, etc. Proximity to downtown is similar to West Van, but they are very close to Microsoft's main campus in Redmond.

That's Bellevue. I'd suspect you'd have to go back at least 30 years to see what it was like before all of this new money came to Seattle.

Yah Bellevue to many of my friends living in that area is referred to as Downtown Microsoft. Your point is quite accurate. The proximity to Redmond and being on the other side of Lake Washington gives it a bit more strength to build up.

I don't think Bellevue will ever be greater than Seattle though. I've spent quite a bit of time in both Seattle and Bellevue (and Redmond for that matter), and while Bellevue really looks like a true downtown from a distance, it is a small sliver of what downtown Seattle already is. And there is plenty of building going on in Seattle still. Not to mention Metrotown in Burnaby technically has 3 times the amount of highrises than downtown Bellevue does. They just built Bellevue compact compared to Metrotown which is largely still spread out.

If Burnaby (or any of the other regional centers) built everything tight to each other like in Bellevue, Metrotown and even Brentwood would look way bigger than Bellevue does today. Heck Burnaby is pretty much double the population of Bellevue. Metrotown and Brentwood just don't "look" downtowny in the traditional sense of wide sidewalks, buildings next to each other, and back alleys.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jhausner

If you think Surrey Central is a mess like the DTES you really need to give your head a shake. It has definite areas that need to be fixed still and open lots that need to be filled, but a mess like the DTES? I just don't see it and I don't think you've really spent any time in the DTES to know what a truely sad an horrible area it is.

My suspicion is if you've spent any time at SFU Surrey, you've realized it isn't as bad as people make out, but to uphold your hard-line Vancouver > all forum persona, you're just saying it because you're programmed to.

I didn't mean to imply that Surrey Central is as bad as the DTES, but it is the second worst area I've seen in Metro Vancouver, with nothing else coming too close. DTES is a clear #1, and Surrey Central/Whalley is a clear #2.

I have nothing inherently against Surrey. In fact I do try to defend the new area to my wife, who grew up there, hates it, and threatened to leave me when I suggested we look at condos in Civic 3.

But I do feel the need to temper a lot of the Surrey boosters around here with a dose of reality. It's clear they get very defensive, very quickly. Moreso than anybody else from any other area.

[Pinion]

The worst thing for Surrey's reputation is Surrey itself. If I listened only to internet posters I would think it has improved greatly with tons of towers

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I didn't mean to imply that Surrey Central is as bad as the DTES, but it is the second worst area I've seen in Metro Vancouver, with nothing else coming too close. DTES is a clear #1, and Surrey Central/Whalley is a clear #2.

I have nothing inherently against Surrey. In fact I do try to defend the new area to my wife, who grew up there, hates it, and threatened to leave me when I suggested we look at condos in Civic 3.

But I do feel the need to temper a lot of the Surrey boosters around here with a dose of reality. It's clear they get very defensive, very quickly. Moreso than anybody else from any other area.

Fair enough.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Pinion

The worst thing for Surrey's reputation is Surrey itself. If I listened only to internet posters I would think it has improved greatly with tons of towers

Not going to vear off topic too far but you do have a point. I can only speak for myself but I try to be as realistic as possible. I don't paint Surrey as being amazing with towers everywhere and "greatly" improving and have posted numerous times the issues we still have in the city. At the same time, I try to defend the unfair bashing that tends to ignorantly go on.

I am all about fair critique and fair comment. Is Surrey a ridiculous place nobody should buy in? Not at all, yet that's what you see a lot of non-Surrey posters post. It's just unfair (when they aren't simply being trolls). At the same time, is Surrey an amazing place with little crime and no issues? Not a chance either so to even imply it is also incorrect as it does have a long ways to go.

People just have to be realistic.

From a new downtown perspective, I think Surrey Central has a great deal of potential in the region because of geography, land size, base services, and proximity to the Fraser Valley and Abbotsford Airport, but potential only gets you so far.

There are a lot of people out there with great potential that accomplish nothing in their lives so the city still needs to deliver as we move forward into the future. Burnaby also has a lot of potential but unlike Surrey (for various reasons and inherent benefits it has already in its favor) has been delivering on that potential.

[TourOdeon]

You guys are so hilarious! Comparing Surrey and Vancouver is like comparing KIA and Mercedes. People don't choose to live in Surrey, they just can't afford to live somewhere better. But the moment some of these people can afford to buy a place elsewhere, they will get the hell out of Surrey. A lot of my friends who grew up in Surrey hate their city so bad, they can't wait to save up enough money to move out. It's pointless to try to predict something if you're not gonna see it in your lifetime. You won't be able to say: "I told you so!".

[memememe76]

I live in Surrey. Would I rather live in Vancouver? Yes. But I have no greater desire to move to, say, Burnaby or Richmond or Langley. And in particular, I would move to Downtown Vancouver. No real desire to move to, say, Kerrisdale. I am not a minority.

[TourOdeon]

Originally Posted by memememe76

I live in Surrey. Would I rather live in Vancouver? Yes. But I have no greater desire to move to, say, Burnaby or Richmond or Langley. And in particular, I would move to Downtown Vancouver. No real desire to move to, say, Kerrisdale. I am not a minority.

What is it that you like about Surrey? Other than cheaper house prices, I'm genuinely curious

[memememe76]

I don't really understand your credulity that someone could enjoy living in Surrey.

I live in Guildford. I'm within very easy walking distance from pretty much anything I would need - two major grocery stores, a library, a recreational facility, mall, London Drugs, coffee shops, Asian restaurants, fast food, movie theatre, restaurants, etc. I live next to a cool pub and a nice little park. The mall is nice. My one bus to the Skytrain is generally frequent and easy. I run outside on a regular basis. I generally find the area safe.

Surrey, in general, is quite easy to drive around (I know, I know). I much prefer driving KGB over Kingsway or No. 3, that's for sure. Surrey has an excellent library and recreational system. It's near the border. White Rock and Crescent Beach are lovely.

What I would love? To live right next to a Skytrain Station. Be near water/seawall. Be nearer to more interesting mom-and-pop non-Asian businesses. But ultimately, I'm happy where I live.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by jhausner

If you think Surrey Central is a mess like the DTES you really need to give your head a shake. It has definite areas that need to be fixed still and open lots that need to be filled, but a mess like the DTES? I just don't see it and I don't think you've really spent any time in the DTES to know what a truely sad an horrible area it is.

My suspicion is if you've spent any time at SFU Surrey, you've realized it isn't as bad as people make out, but to uphold your hard-line Vancouver > all forum persona, you're just saying it because you're programmed to.

That said, it definitely has a lot of room for improvement I don't disagree, but the original poster is talking 20+ years. Just look how much has changed in 10 years around here. Heck look at Brentwood 10 years ago. It had like 3 highrises and didn't even have any sidewalks down many of the main streets off of Lougheed...

A lot can and will change I'm sure of it.

Still don't think any town center will supplant downtown Vancouver though. It just has too far a head start, and while stats clearly show living next to the ocean isn't the end-all-be-all, I won't argue with the fact downtown Vancouver is probably the most picturesque of areas in the entire region. Heck when I have friends visiting me from over seas, we spend a large chunk of the time visiting areas and sites in Vancouver specifically.

It is still the region's center and will be for probably my lifetime.

We should all make sure not to disparage what has been built in Vancouver. It is a truly great city in my opinion, DTES and all.

On the other hand, how many drive-bys and public shooting incidents have there been in Surrey over the last few months? More than the DTES I bet. The DTES is a sinkhole, but your average citizen probably has no more to fear there than being struck by a bullet fired by some minor league gangbanger in Surrey.

[TourOdeon]

Originally Posted by memememe76

I don't really understand your credulity that someone could enjoy living in Surrey.

I live in Guildford. I'm within very easy walking distance from pretty much anything I would need - two major grocery stores, a library, a recreational facility, mall, London Drugs, coffee shops, Asian restaurants, fast food, movie theatre, restaurants, etc. I live next to a cool pub and a nice little park. The mall is nice. My one bus to the Skytrain is generally frequent and easy. I run outside on a regular basis. I generally find the area safe.

Surrey, in general, is quite easy to drive around (I know, I know). I much prefer driving KGB over Kingsway or No. 3, that's for sure. Surrey has an excellent library and recreational system. It's near the border. White Rock and Crescent Beach are lovely.

What I would love? To live right next to a Skytrain Station. Be near water/seawall. Be nearer to more interesting mom-and-pop non-Asian businesses. But ultimately, I'm happy where I live.

I just never find the appeal of Surrey compared to other cities
- Coquitlam: Sure the commute to Vancouver is really far, but it seems like a safe and quiet place to raise a family
- Burnaby: Suburb of Vancouver, good transit network
- North Vancouver: Crossing the bridge is a pain during rush hour, but that'd be where I want to be for retirement, nice view of the Downtown Vancouver from Lonsdale Quay
- Richmond: Lots of Asian restaurants and entertainment, safe and relatively easy commute by skytrain to Downtown

Meanwhile, Surrey all has the negative features: far from Vancouver just like Coquitlam, poor transit network via bus, lots of areas are just too dark and unsafe for raising a family, crossing the bridge is also a pain either costing money or faced with traffic jam on Patullo bridge and people arent very friendly in general

I gotta give it to Ivanhoe Cambridge for renovating the mall, it surely looks really attractive. But I once went there for shopping, the people who go there look quite scary I must say. Lots of people there look like gangsters. Having the newly renovated Guildford mall there means that Surrey residents no longer have to go to Metrotown to do their shopping. But the mall will not attract Burnaby residents to go to Guildford mall for shopping.

[Whalleyboy]

Personally I am happy living in Surrey and it is my choice to be here. I love having a great mall, small shops, and a movie theater all with in walking distance of my home. In fact I have a great polish deli right across the street. I also enjoy the park systems around here for biking, walks, and running. I have an actual bike park by my place. As said earlier the recreational system is in place here is great. I now have a pool along with a gym(but gyms are everywhere these days it seems) with in walking distance from my home. The city has also done a great job at bring some great events around here. The fusion fest is always a fun thing to check out every year. I've enjoy the fact we have a great Christmas tree lighting festival. It reminds me when I was a kid going to the one. Also we have the Christmas light parade in Cloverdale and a great Canada day party as well. Also lets not forget the Cloverdale rodeo. I always end up having a great time there.
Also some of the views of the mountains you can find around this city are just simply amazing I'm still finding new ones every now and then.

Does Surrey have issues? Of course it does I'd like to know a big city that doesn't?
Would I care to be near the sea? No actually I work in Richmond its close enough and get annoyed with the damn birds crapping on my car. But if I do feel like seeing the ocean I'll go to white rock.
What about a night life? I'm not really into clubbing anymore but I have a nice pub down the street from me I enjoy going to.
The only thing I really have an issue with living here is the lack of some sort of sports entertainment in north Surrey.
But minus that last part I love my city which I have picked to live in. I could win the lotto and I would never by a place in Vancouver I see no reason why I would truly want to live there. I honestly don't see what all the hype over how great it is people put off. I don't go bashing people wanting to live there though as I believe everyone has the right to their own opinion.

[Equinox71]

Originally Posted by TourOdeon

You guys are so hilarious! Comparing Surrey and Vancouver is like comparing KIA and Mercedes. People don't choose to live in Surrey, they just can't afford to live somewhere better. But the moment some of these people can afford to buy a place elsewhere, they will get the hell out of Surrey. A lot of my friends who grew up in Surrey hate their city so bad, they can't wait to save up enough money to move out. It's pointless to try to predict something if you're not gonna see it in your lifetime. You won't be able to say: "I told you so!".

With all due respect, this is both tragically and amusingly ignorant!!! I am not originally from BC and since I have moved to this province, I have lived in the Interior, in the West End, in Fairview by False Creek, and in Surrey Central City area (in that order). I have immensely enjoyed living in each of these areas for different reasons and I am contentedly living close to the King George skytrain station by choice. I make a comfortable six figure income and my partner has a decent income too so we could have purchased a home in Vancouver proper if we wanted to. However, Surrey works fine for us for a wide variety of reasons - commuting time, easy access to transit and Hwy 1, and walkability to amenities. We often go into d/t Vancouver by skytrain, drive to Bellingham in 30 minutes (thank you Nexus!), do a fair amount of our business and leisure in the Fraser Valley and beyond - Surrey is perfect in the way that it is equidistant to just about everything that makes for our happy quality of life. We are anything but in some residential purgatory waiting for a miracle to get us out of here and to have someone assert that is downright insulting. I am not on a mission to make anyone think anything about Surrey one way or another - hate it or love it if you like - makes absolutely no difference to me! But to say that anyone is where they are at because of a miserable lack of choice is beyond stupid - regardless of what territory one is speaking of. I can't see how anyone would want to live in some of the other cities in Metro-Vancouver and the Lower Mainland but I can't imagine telling those residents that they live where they do because they don't have choice. Maybe they see something I don't and THAT'S OK! Yikes! Flame away.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by memememe76

I don't really understand your credulity that someone could enjoy living in Surrey.

I live in Guildford. I'm within very easy walking distance from pretty much anything I would need - two major grocery stores, a library, a recreational facility, mall, London Drugs, coffee shops, Asian restaurants, fast food, movie theatre, restaurants, etc. I live next to a cool pub and a nice little park. The mall is nice. My one bus to the Skytrain is generally frequent and easy. I run outside on a regular basis. I generally find the area safe.

Basically the same as the West End or Commercial Dr.

Surrey needs to do things better than everyone else if it wants to compete with the likes of Brentwood and Metrotown. The obvious weakness in Metro Vancouver is architecture. Surrey should declare itself "The City of Architecture". The bar is so low Surrey could easily stand out if they put even a minimal effort into upping the level of architecture. Keep the tower portion its same cheap self, but put more thought into the podiums and especially the retail facades.

Just continuing on with the same clone towers that every other municipality is building will leave Surrey lagging behind for decades. Surrey just doesn't have the natural surroundings or geographical advantage that other areas have. An LRT line alone is not going to magically transform Surrey, just as Skytrain has not magically transformed Surrey.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Equinox71

We are anything but in some residential purgatory waiting for a miracle to get us out of here and to have someone assert that is downright insulting. I am not on a mission to make anyone think anything about Surrey one way or another - hate it or love it if you like - makes absolutely no difference to me! But to say that anyone is where they are at because of a miserable lack of choice is beyond stupid

Sure there are people that just love Surrey, but there's a reason why its the one of the cheapest places to live in Metro Van. There are things that the City of Surrey could do, but they don't do it. Except for lobbying for 2 billion dollars worth of LRT and hope that does all the work for them.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Tell that to everyone living from Kelowna to Montreal. Or those living in Paris or even London... last I checked living by the ocean isn't a requirement. Not to mention statistics don't actually back what you claim given if people are attracted to Metro Vancouver specifically because of the view you get from downtown, why do only 80,000 of 2.4 million people live in downtown?

Now don't get me wrong, water front is big thus why a lot of people buy expensive cabins on lakes or ocean front property, but as desirable as it is, the vast majority of the world doesn't live by any ocean... and the vast majority of people in metro-Vancouver don't live within viewing distance of the ocean.

I think more people around Metro-Vancouver enjoy the view of the mountains than the ocean anyway. Hell that's the reason for all the restrictive view cones. Not the ocean views, but rather the mountain views. I get quite an amazing view of the mountains from my condo unit I own in Surrey Central. And I was out in Langley in mansion row out at 4th avenue and 200th near the border last week and there are some amazing mountain views from even there. Step out onto the porch and you can see grand views of the mountains from Cypress all the way to Golden Ears and beyond. Many points in Metro-Vancouver have great mountain views and I'd honestly rather spend for that than to sit next to the ocean.

Quite amazing. Amazing enough to build $2-6 million mansions. And it takes 25 minutes to drive to the nearest Ocean from there...

because they can't afford it.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by whatnext

On the other hand, how many drive-bys and public shooting incidents have there been in Surrey over the last few months? More than the DTES I bet. The DTES is a sinkhole, but your average citizen probably has no more to fear there than being struck by a bullet fired by some minor league gangbanger in Surrey.

Well, many of the poorest DTES residents are too poor to even afford a gun I'm sure, otherwise I'm pretty sure there would be a lot more "drive-bys". There are certainly lots of knifings, and "deaths by lethal injections", vandalism, public urination, thefts, unsocial behaviours, break-ins/thefts and public disturbances. More of the buildings and rental rooms there look unsanitary and unfit for human habitation. Can you say the same about Whalley for all the above?

[logicbomb]

I have lived in Guildford, Whalley and Fleetwood. All in a span of 1.5 years.

Basically, there's pros and cons

-Transit in Whalley and Guildford is very good. I had a B-Line and several other buses within a 600m walk of me. Plenty of amenities; grocery stores, retailers, clinics and restaurants line 104th and 152nd in the Guildford core.

I found Fleetwood doesn't particularly get serviced well. You are often forced to backtrack and wait a long duration for a connection (ie. 320/502 -> 341/335). There needs to be more community routes in Fleetwood since it's rather sprawled out.

-Parks a bonus. There are green spaces everywhere, which promotes children to be more active. Would like to see a bigger emphasis on constructing outdoor hockey/lacrosse rinks an soccer pitches. Hawthrone Park comes to mind as a park that is lacking open spaces.

-Plenty of petty crime and burglary plagued the "ghettos" in Guildford and Whalley. There are specific apartments (under the company Mainstreet Equity Corp) that continue to appeal to criminals and do little to screen out trouble makers. I call these ghettos because there are plenty of drugs and problematic diseases and bugs on these properties; and no this isn't an exaggeration. Bed bug and cockroach infestations go untreated in these apartments. Illegal dumping is a significant issue too, and the City of Surrey crews are slow to act on mattresses that are dumped street
side.

Definitely not safe to walk the streets at night. I was harassed a few times in Whalley and Guildford and there is always the fear of being a victim of mistaken identity in a city that is in a full on turf war.

I found Fleetwood to be the safest and cleanest of the three. Overall, I do have to give the nod to Guildford. Ample bus connections, lots of amenities (they have even added a pool to the rec center) and plenty of entertainment and dining options that appeal to everyone.

Still a lot of work to be done in this City, but we are at least a few decades away from seeing densification outside of Whalley.