Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[esquire]

The only real advantage to the smaller stadium is smaller construction cost up front. Over the medium term there's no doubt in my mind that a stadium in Halifax would eventually inch up closer to the 25,000 mark.

[MonctonRad]

a few thousand empty seats in a 25,000 seat stadium doesn't bother me. It might actually make some sense for a "regional" team like Halifax is marketed to be. If somebody from NB decides to go to Halifax at the last minute for the weekend, it would be nice if there were the option to pick up a couple of tickets to the game at the gate if they decided to catch a game at the same time.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

a few thousand empty seats in a 25,000 seat stadium doesn't bother me. It might actually make some sense for a "regional" team like Halifax is marketed to be. If somebody from NB decides to go to Halifax at the last minute for the weekend, it would be nice if there were the option to pick up a couple of tickets to the game at the gate if they decided to catch a game at the same time.

Agreed strongly. I don't understand the obsession with ensuring that it's hard to go to games and that not a seat goes empty every time. If Halifax gets a 24,000 seat stadium and averages 20,000 fans, that's fine. You would hardly notice in the stadium, but it would allow room for growth and, more importantly, ensure that the game is accessible to people.

Now if the costs associated with 20,000 vs 24,000 make or break the stadium construction financials, then fine, but if it's feasible, I typically think it's better to overshoot by a little bit then to underbuild.

[esquire]

The small capacity/high price combination only works when demand is vast. A good example is any Canadian NHL market except Ottawa.

But the CFL simply doesn't yet have an established, devoted fanbase on the East Coast. It's unrealistically optimistic to think that you could put up a small stadium and have people committing to paying $100 or more a ticket right off the bat.

[esquire]

From the Ticats thread in the Hamilton subforum:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...shed-1.4551357

I wish Hamilton would get this straightened out so they could host a Grey Cup sometime this century.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

The only real advantage to the smaller stadium is smaller construction cost up front. Over the medium term there's no doubt in my mind that a stadium in Halifax would eventually inch up closer to the 25,000 mark.

There are other potential uses for a stadium too and one-off events in Halifax like concerts and celebrity visits have historically attracted 30,000-80,000 people many times.

I would guess that a lot of the stadium construction costs are essentially fixed and so increasing the capacity by 25% might only have a marginal impact on the total cost.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by someone123

There are other potential uses for a stadium too and one-off events in Halifax like concerts and celebrity visits have historically attracted 30,000-80,000 people many times.

I would guess that a lot of the stadium construction costs are essentially fixed and so increasing the capacity by 25% might only have a marginal impact on the total cost.

Good point. I was thinking of 5,000 seats as another grandstand which would require a completely separate and additional structure, but that number of seats could be accommodated by adding another dozen or so rows to the main grandstands. Clearly not cheap but probably not something that's going to have a major effect on the underlying viability of the stadium itself.

[someone123]

I think a larger stadium in Halifax might actually be easier to build because it will be more clearly differentiated from the Scotiabank Centre. A 10,000 person stadium would be like Scotiabank minus the roof.

The concert capacity would be larger than the seating capacity for sports games too. A stadium with 25,000 permanent seats may hold 30,000 for concerts. This would be a nice new addition to the mix of venues available in the Halifax area.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Do you think Ottawa or Hamilton would be happy at 20,000 seats?

Both of these cities are twice the size of Halifax with decades of history with the CFL. Montreal or Vancouver probably would be right about now.

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I think the support will be outstanding but at the very least 22000+ will show up on a regular saturday game which is fine.

I would be impressed if an Atlantic team averaged 22K over its first three seasons.

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

It's not a one size fits all league but 24,000 should be a good starter stadium for an unknown fan support

Wouldn't it make more sense to be more conversative with the stadium-opening capacity and raising it later if there is enough demand?

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Yes absolutely, You're right they "Could" make it work but in a league where the smallest capacity is at 24,000 and why is an idea of 20,000 even being floated? Didn't The owner of the Ticats say a franchise is break even at 20,000 a few years ago? I think 20,000 is a bad idea. 22,000 might create some scarcity but depending on your fanbase so could 24,000

More people don't show up simply because you build a bigger stadium. Average league attendance is 24K and Halifax is going to be the smallest market, notwithstanding the enigma that is Saskatchewan.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Agreed strongly. I don't understand the obsession with ensuring that it's hard to go to games and that not a seat goes empty every time. If Halifax gets a 24,000 seat stadium and averages 20,000 fans, that's fine. You would hardly notice in the stadium, but it would allow room for growth and, more importantly, ensure that the game is accessible to people.

This is mostly about optics. Say Halifax averages 20K in a 24K stadium: If they sell out a number of games it means they would have to be sub-20K for others to make the 20K average. This means that empty seats are plainly visible for an expansion team in a new market which is supposed to be hungry for pro sports and the CFL.

If we all think Halifax is going to average 20K upon startup then build a 20K stadium with potential to expand to 25K either temporarily or down the road.

Originally Posted by someone123

The concert capacity would be larger than the seating capacity for sports games though. A stadium with 25,000 permanent seats may hold 30,000 for concerts. This would be a nice new addition to the mix of venues available in the Halifax area.

Pending weather, how desirable would a 30K venue be for concerts in Dartmouth Crossing?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Pending weather, how desirable would a 30K venue be for concerts in Dartmouth Crossing?

That location would be unfortunate although I am not sure how much material difference it would make to concert attendance.

The weather is mostly a red herring. There have been lots of concerts on the Halifax Common. Some of them happened during rain and were still really successful.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

That location would be unfortunate although I am not sure how much material difference it would make to concert attendance.

If we're taking the logistics of MonctonRad's anecdotal example of a family travelling from NB for a weekend in Halifax to catch a game, presumably their hotel would be Peninsula/Dartmouth. Regardless, it would require driving to/from the venue. The Halifax Common has the benefit of being within walking distance to a large chunk of Halifax's urban population whilst also being nearby to a large chunk of Halifax's hotels. The new stadium likely will not be.

This says nothing of the NB family who, if travelling back on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon and are not attending the game, have to deal with increased traffic heading to Dartmouth Crossing for the CFL game on the 102. Traffic for concerts would be worse, pending transit options etc.

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt Halifax can make a new stadium work, but I take great issue with the decision to have the stadium in a suburban big-box wasteland, if that is indeed what happens.

[someone123]

Sure. It's less convenient. But why is our representative attendee of an event in Halifax always someone driving down from New Brunswick? And isn't the fuss of getting from the hotel to Dartmouth Crossing (or just parking at the stadium) minor compared to the cost of driving 2-4 hours?

The bread and butter for the stadium will be the people living within about a 30 minute radius.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

Sure. It's less convenient. But why is our representative attendee of an event in Halifax always someone driving down from New Brunswick? And isn't the fuss of getting from the hotel to Dartmouth Crossing (or just parking at the stadium) minor compared to the cost of driving 2-4 hours?

The bread and butter for the stadium will be the people living within about a 30 minute radius.

So you admit it then! This will be a Halifax team for Halifax after all!!!

[esquire]

^ The bread and butter for pretty well every sports team is people who reside within an hour of the venue. Even in Sask it's mostly people from Regina in the stands. The people from Moose Jaw, North Battleford, Saskatoon, Kindersley or wherever help boost the numbers, but the team is built on Regina fan support.

The only exception that readily comes to mind (although I'm sure there may be one or two others) is the Packers, who have a substantial chunk of their season ticket base coming in from Madison and Milwaukee.

[EpicPonyTime]

I don't know about 25K seats, but the stadium should definitely be able to hold that many people when you factor in party zones/patios/whatever gets millenials in the stadium nowadays.

The only issue with building small is the cost of expanding might disuade them from ever doing it. The CFL doesn't get the type of profit margins where teams can afford a quality stadium expansion; at best they'd end up with a monstrosity similar to Taylor Field.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ The bread and butter for pretty well every sports team is people who reside within an hour of the venue. Even in Sask it's mostly people from Regina in the stands. The people from Moose Jaw, North Battleford, Saskatoon, Kindersley or wherever help boost the numbers, but the team is built on Regina fan support.

The only exception that readily comes to mind (although I'm sure there may be one or two others) is the Packers, who have a substantial chunk of their season ticket base coming in from Madison and Milwaukee.

For the same fans regularly in the stands, yes, though you have the cyclical nature of various fans from outlying areas almost trading off in terms of regular attendance. I think they say 75-80% or so of season tickets are from the Regina area, but that still leaves a solid 5-6k of average game attendance based in further out reaches of the province.

Where you really see the difference though is in merchandise and tv viewership numbers. This is where the Rider's full provincial (and extra-provincial) reach becomes apparent. Regina alone wouldn't be able to support the viewership and merch sales the Rider's have. Merch sales help the Rider's bottom line (and sometimes the league's if they buy through various retailers instead of the Rider Store) and the tv viewership helps the whole league's bottom line by pushing up TSN numbers.

If an Atlantic team based in Halifax functions similarly, it would buoy (ooooo a seafaring pun) both the local team and the league as a whole... And it had a much larger base than Saskatchewan to begin with. The crux ends up being how they can properly tap into that Atlantic pride.

(As for Moose Jaw... It's not in the Regina CMA, but for stuff like Rider games, it may as well be; it's all of 45 mins away. Closer to Mosaic stadium than some reaches of other CMAs are to their respective stadiums). The Bombers have taken to staying out there during the Labour Day Classic as hotels in Regina tend to get rowdy, and fans like to try and make Bomber players a little short on sleep.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by esquire

From the Ticats thread in the Hamilton subforum:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...shed-1.4551357

I wish Hamilton would get this straightened out so they could host a Grey Cup sometime this century.

...What a piece of garbage that atrocity is.

P.S., wrt Halifax. Halifax is a far larger city than Regina and Moncton is equally distant to Halifax as Saskatoon is to Regina. I think it is right to go for 24000; you'd want the stadium to be able to host a Grey cup after all. If it proves too big you could always just do what Vancouver does with BC place: blanket off the top tiers to concentrate the fans near the field.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nathan

If an Atlantic team based in Halifax functions similarly, it would buoy (ooooo a seafaring pun) both the local team and the league as a whole... And it had a much larger base than Saskatchewan to begin with. The crux ends up being how they can properly tap into that Atlantic pride.

I don't think this would be difficult at all. There are no other major sports teams in Atlantic Caanda, and people in that region tend to love regional stuff. An example of this for clothing is East Coast Lifestyle.

If anything I think people underestimate how much support an Atlantic team would have by looking at the current population of the region. If there were an Atlantic CFL team there would be "expats" all over Canada buying their merchandise and watching their games.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

...What a piece of garbage that atrocity is.

P.S., wrt Halifax. Halifax is a far larger city than Regina and Moncton is equally distant to Halifax as Saskatoon is to Regina. I think it is right to go for 24000; you'd want the stadium to be able to host a Grey cup after all. If it proves too big you could always just do what Vancouver does with BC place: blanket off the top tiers to concentrate the fans near the field.

For a bare bones, basic stadium it sure has a lot of issues it seems. And they still can't fix them three years later?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

For a bare bones, basic stadium it sure has a lot of issues it seems. And they still can't fix them three years later?

It's not a bad stadium, but it's starting to become a classic example of being penny wise and pound foolish by attempting to rush something through on an unrealistically tight budget.