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  #101  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2020, 3:25 AM
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Uh what about Cornwallis and Amhurst? These are really controversial figures too.
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  #102  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2020, 5:07 AM
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I meant historical figures from other parts of Canada. (ROC = "Rest of Canada"). Whether or not they're controversial wasn't the point.
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  #103  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 4:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Does this exist anywhere in the world? The closest thing that comes to mind is the former Yugoslavia, though that was still more of a linguistic patchwork geographically. And, uh, we all know how that turned out.

The more I think about it, the more I think that a "truly bilingual" society without regionally discrete linguistic strongholds is basically an impossibility.
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Singapore is an interesting case in that English has been forced/promoted as a second language, but the first languages are still Malay, Mandarin, Hokkien and Tamil according to ethnicity. So it's language X + English, making it effectively bilingual overall in a sense, but with many languages participating, not just two.

Actually, China is like that, with Mandarin being universal while still sharing linguistic space with local dialects. Because schooling is in Mandarin and media in local dialects is sparse (or even nonexistent?) you now have hundreds of millions of people who speak Mandarin and their local dialect equally effortlessly.
What about India?

And also a decent portion of Africa (with many places like Nigeria, having a local language and then people knowing the colonial language, like English).

I actually read that bilingualism or multilingualism was historically not uncommon because back in the day, languages varied a lot more within a short distance (e.g. sharp borders where people speak one language only on one side of a border was actually enforced by modern nationalism, plus the standardization of dialects). In much of history, many European countries might have been more like India or China where dialects and languages blurred into one another gradually over distance (e.g. France, Italy and Spain etc. and its regional languages).

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Mandarin for most of the nation, Cantonese for Hong Kong and Guangdong. Whats funny is that they both write the exact same so its just that you say the characters differently.
Written Cantonese is a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Cantonese

It's just that the written standard as well as the spoken standard today is based on Mandarin (Before the 20th century, the standard was Classical Chinese).


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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Right, but arguably Italy has a more benign climate than France and saw massive amounts of emigration to the Americas (esp. the US, Argentina, Brazil) particularly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Despite that, its population nearly doubled from 17 to 33 million during the 1800s. Again, the reason why there was very little supplementation of the French-Canadian population from France itself after 1763 is entirely demographic.
Yeah, I think even today (where wealthier people have the luxury of choosing more comfortable climates to live and work in) climate isn't a huge factor; likely climate was not the major factor in mass immigration (aside from disasters like famines, droughts) in those days. People were more than willing to move to unpleasant climates for all kinds of benefits (land, wealth, status etc.)

Plenty of people today would still love to move to Canada, Scandinavia etc. from warmer places all over the world.

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Interesting. I should clarify that I don't know anyone personally who'd call him a traitor, more that most people here would readily admit that they don't know enough about him to have an opinion either way. I can't think of any streets in NS named after him, but then again I can't think of many streets (or buildings) in NS named for ROC historical figures at all. John A. Macdonald being the only exception I can think of offhand, and even then, there isn't a ton of stuff named after him here (there's John A. MacDonald High School, and that might be it).
Seems like there's a few high schools named after John A. MacDonald that I could find on Wikipedia -- besides in Nova Scotia, a few in southern Ontario, and one junior high in Calgary.

I'm not sure if the distribution of things and places named after John A. MacDonald shows a geographic trend or not in Canada.

Last edited by Capsicum; Feb 25, 2020 at 4:27 AM.
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  #104  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Yeah, I think even today (where wealthier people have the luxury of choosing more comfortable climates to live and work in) climate isn't a huge factor; likely climate was not the major factor in mass immigration (aside from disasters like famines, droughts) in those days. People were more than willing to move to unpleasant climates for all kinds of benefits (land, wealth, status etc.)

Plenty of people today would still love to move to Canada, Scandinavia etc. from warmer places all over the world.
.
Millions of people from southern Europe moved to the NE US which is a lot colder in the winter, and millions of their descendants are still there.
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  #105  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 1:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Right, but arguably Italy has a more benign climate than France and saw massive amounts of emigration to the Americas (esp. the US, Argentina, Brazil) particularly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Despite that, its population nearly doubled from 17 to 33 million during the 1800s. .
Another reason Italy saw mass emigration is that while it has some excellent agricultural land, much of the country is hilly or mountainous and often unsuitable for agriculture.

France is also quite a bit larger than Italy, and more of it is flat and suitable for growing crops.
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  #106  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 3:49 PM
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Another factor is that Italy didn't industrialize as quickly or as thoroughly as France. While the UK was the first country to industrialize, that industrialization was concentrated mostly in England, and it was mostly Scottish and Irish emigration that filled up Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. In Canada, people of Scottish and Irish descent combined outnumber those of English descent, whereas in modern day Europe, England has five times more people than Ireland and Scotland combined.

Ireland lost more than half its population in the 19th century despite a very high birth rate. It's estimated that there's 80 million people worldwide with Irish ancestry, compared to just 6 million living in Ireland today.
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  #107  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
Another factor is that Italy didn't industrialize as quickly or as thoroughly as France. While the UK was the first country to industrialize, that industrialization was concentrated mostly in England, and it was mostly Scottish and Irish emigration that filled up Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. In Canada, people of Scottish and Irish descent combined outnumber those of English descent, whereas in modern day Europe, England has five times more people than Ireland and Scotland combined.

Ireland lost more than half its population in the 19th century despite a very high birth rate. It's estimated that there's 80 million people worldwide with Irish ancestry, compared to just 6 million living in Ireland today.
There was equally heavy industrialization in the Scottish Lowlands, South Wales and Northern Ireland. At one time Glasgow alone produced fully one quarter of the world's locomotives and was the largest shipbuilding centre on the planet as well as one of the world's richest cities.

Emigration from Scotland, at least in the pre-Confederation years, was more a result of agricultural changes (ie. enclosures) rather than lack of industrialization.
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  #108  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 8:58 PM
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True. Strathclyde in Scotland and eastern Ulster in Ireland did industrialize with England. But it wasn't well distributed outside those two regions.
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  #109  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2020, 9:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
What about India?
The topic was "truly bilingual" places where two languages share space somewhat equally without particular attachment to ethnicity. India has local dialects with Hindi and English both acting as lingua francas to varying degrees.

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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
I actually read that bilingualism or multilingualism was historically not uncommon...
The majority of people in the world are bilingual. Major countries with mostly one language are Russia, the anglosphere, Japan, arguably Germany and France, Portugal, Greece, Egypt, maybe a few other Middle Eastern countries, and arguably all of South America (including Mexico).

The rest have a lingua franca governing over mutually unintelligible local dialects.
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  #110  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2020, 3:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
The topic was "truly bilingual" places where two languages share space somewhat equally without particular attachment to ethnicity. India has local dialects with Hindi and English both acting as lingua francas to varying degrees.
Okay, what about Spanish and Guarani in Paraguay?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarani_language

"It is one of the official languages of Paraguay (along with Spanish), where it is spoken by the majority of the population, and where half of the rural population is monolingual."

...

"Guarani is one of the most widely spoken indigenous languages of the Americas and the only one whose speakers include a large proportion of non-indigenous people. This represents a unique anomaly in the Americas, where language shift towards European colonial languages (in this case, the other official language of Spanish) has otherwise been a nearly universal cultural and identity marker of mestizos (people of mixed Spanish and Amerindian ancestry)."
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  #111  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2020, 3:47 AM
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My other thought was going to be English in Israel being fairly widespread, though Hebrew is official and Hebrew and Arabic are the two widest spoken languages. In fact, I'm wondering if there isn't a slight parallel with the previous dominance of Anglophones in Montreal and the gradual localization of Francophone identity in the city to the earlier (more American Jewish) presence of English when modern Israel as a nation-state was still fairly young, which slowly gave way and gave rise to a more local, Hebrew-dominant culture. Also, earlier on in modern Israel, many diasporic Jews brought their previous languages (e.g Yiddish, Russian, English etc.) which gradually gave way to Hebrew as a local identity grew.

But then that also doesn't quite satisfy the criteria of without "particular attachment to ethnicity" you mentioned.

That also raises another point -- what is the definition of ethnicity used in terms of connection to language?

For example, "Jewish" being both an ethnicity and a religion, but before modern Hebrew, Jews in diaspora spoke a variety of languages (e.g. Sephardic Jews speaking Spanish etc.). Are the different African diasporas (e.g. African Americans, African-Canadians, Afro-Latinos, Afro-Jamaicans) similarly different ethnicities on the basis of language, or different cultural experiences due to being separated by nation-state, versus ancestry?

Ethnicity (although often used popularly to mean "race" or "ancestry") often by many definitions incorporates cultural identity including language, but if we're going by "culture", Francophone Canada does have a distinct culture, even if you don't call it an ethnicity.

Last edited by Capsicum; Feb 26, 2020 at 4:00 AM.
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