Sacramento Transportation

[LandofFrost]

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/tra...le2926262.html

New Pedestrian bridge in Curtis Park.

[CAGeoNerd]

Originally Posted by LandofFrost

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/tra...le2926262.html

New Pedestrian bridge in Curtis Park.

Really neat! I love the simple fact of adding more connections through the city. Will be great for the City College, but also simply for everyone in the Curtis Park/Land Park area. Another, safer way to cross the tracks = more biking and walking and connectivity.

[Folks3000]

http://www.contracostatimes.com/cont...mtrak-transfer

This would make visits to the City so much less of a hassle! I hope it happens someday. Might bring businesses and visitors into Downtown Sac too with an easier connection.

[wburg]

Shaving a few minutes off travel time to San Francisco doesn't really help much, and it's still a transfer--but in this case, to BART trains that are already full. When I take Capitol Corridor to San Francisco I generally transfer at Emeryville, to take the fun "tourist" view over the Bay Bridge, rather than via Richmond BART, although once I took it so I could stop in Berkeley on the way into SF, and was going to a part of SF where the Emeryville buses don't go.

Not sure how it would encourage visitors into downtown Sacramento unless there was a way to encourage Capitol Corridor riders to take RT buses or trains from the station. Assuming BART figures out a way to add some capacity to those already-full rush hour trains in Oakland, it could make travel times a little faster for commuters in either direction, but what makes people want to switch modes, or make trips they wouldn't otherwise make, is simplicity (like fewer transfers) rather than a few minutes less travel time.

[Folks3000]

Originally Posted by wburg

Shaving a few minutes off travel time to San Francisco doesn't really help much, and it's still a transfer--but in this case, to BART trains that are already full. When I take Capitol Corridor to San Francisco I generally transfer at Emeryville, to take the fun "tourist" view over the Bay Bridge, rather than via Richmond BART, although once I took it so I could stop in Berkeley on the way into SF, and was going to a part of SF where the Emeryville buses don't go.

Not sure how it would encourage visitors into downtown Sacramento unless there was a way to encourage Capitol Corridor riders to take RT buses or trains from the station. Assuming BART figures out a way to add some capacity to those already-full rush hour trains in Oakland, it could make travel times a little faster for commuters in either direction, but what makes people want to switch modes, or make trips they wouldn't otherwise make, is simplicity (like fewer transfers) rather than a few minutes less travel time.

True, a direct rail connection one day with no transfer is obviously the most ideal. But I'd take a rail to rail connection over a rail to bus connection ANY DAY hands down for the last leg of the trip. Transferring to the bus in Emeryville is a pain, you have to sit and wait for them to load up everything and get every passenger before the bus will even leave. Shaving ten minutes or so is huge when it comes to a commute every day, and having the psychological certainty of rail vs a finicky bus (ok so maybe BART is finicky to those who know it well) is important for people less familiar with the area.

But yea I get what you say about BART rush hour issues, but that is their problem, no reason we can't improve things on the capitol corridor end and let BART sort out its own issues over time. In fact, sometimes having a problem get even worse is a good impetus to kick them into solving their problems.

I think it would encourage a lot of people to visit Sac, having people try to find buses in SF is a big psychological barrier to having a solid rail to rail transfer station (without making a 40 minute BART ride to Richmond or some bs). But again, obviously a direct rail connection between downtown SF and downtown Sac would be the most logical and ideal in the far distant future. When the railyards in Sac start getting built out and the arena is finished I could totally see people taking BART to West Oakland and grabbing a train to Sac for the day.

I guess I got too happy from living in DC where you could easily catch commuter and regional trains using a direct subway connection in a central-ish location. It was wonderful.

[wburg]

I like it for the view, and not all rail/bus is created equal. It's a comfortable charter bus, not like a MUNI city bus, and, as I said, I like the view from the bridge. Taking BART from Richmond (or presumably from Oakland) means buying a BART card in addition to the Amtrak ticket (a bit more complexity) and going through the station and turnstiles, and getting onto a potentially crowded BART car. I like public transit so don't mind a crowd or a diverse group of folks riding with me, but I suppose it might make some folks uncomfortable.

And there is already a rail to rail transfer station from San Francisco to Capitol Corridor, it's just Richmond rather than Oakland, a generally quieter and less crowded station, that's just a couple minutes farther out. It sounds like there are other potential advantages to consolidating regional intermodal transit in Oakland, but driving additional SF/Sacramento traffic doesn't sound like a particularly important purpose of that project. And if it's BART's problem, then it's everyone's problem, because this plan depends on BART's willingness to be the main vehicle of the new hub.

There once was a direct rail connection between Sacramento and San Francisco, but only 1939-1940, the Sacramento Northern interurban electric railroad--you could get on in Sacramento (the train started in Chico but Sacramento was the system's hub,) take an electric train all the way through the East Bay and into downtown San Francisco's transbay terminal, taking a car ferry over Suisun Bay and the brand-new Bay Bridge into San Francisco. Shame we don't have one today.

[202_Cyclist]

Would this proposal be able to increase the number of passengers using the new BART - Oakland airport rail connection?

[wburg]

Not sure if three transfers (minimum) with luggage and a higher fare would encourage anyone to go to the Oakland airport vs. Sacramento, but if you had to get to the Oakland airport via transit that would be a way to do it.

Waaait a sec...this is less than a mile from Oakland's Amtrak station. Wouldn't this mean relocating the Amtrak depot to an entirely new location, as well as repositioning the BART station from its current location? Wow, all of a sudden this sounds like a whole lot of work to shave ten minutes off a Sac/SF trip. As someone who makes that trip pretty frequently, I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. Looks like it is more of a retrospective by a former BART director, talking about paths not taken, rather than any sort of plan for the future. Incidentally, it also would have meant moving the Oakland Amtrak depot much farther away from downtown Oakland, and the city of Oakland might have their own concerns about that!

[Folks3000]

Originally Posted by wburg

I like it for the view, and not all rail/bus is created equal. It's a comfortable charter bus, not like a MUNI city bus, and, as I said, I like the view from the bridge. Taking BART from Richmond (or presumably from Oakland) means buying a BART card in addition to the Amtrak ticket (a bit more complexity) and going through the station and turnstiles, and getting onto a potentially crowded BART car. I like public transit so don't mind a crowd or a diverse group of folks riding with me, but I suppose it might make some folks uncomfortable.

And there is already a rail to rail transfer station from San Francisco to Capitol Corridor, it's just Richmond rather than Oakland, a generally quieter and less crowded station, that's just a couple minutes farther out. It sounds like there are other potential advantages to consolidating regional intermodal transit in Oakland, but driving additional SF/Sacramento traffic doesn't sound like a particularly important purpose of that project. And if it's BART's problem, then it's everyone's problem, because this plan depends on BART's willingness to be the main vehicle of the new hub.

There once was a direct rail connection between Sacramento and San Francisco, but only 1939-1940, the Sacramento Northern interurban electric railroad--you could get on in Sacramento (the train started in Chico but Sacramento was the system's hub,) take an electric train all the way through the East Bay and into downtown San Francisco's transbay terminal, taking a car ferry over Suisun Bay and the brand-new Bay Bridge into San Francisco. Shame we don't have one today.

The buses are ok, but they just aren't all that helpful. I've had to wait up to ten minutes for the right bus to even arrive, another 10 minutes or so just for everyone to put their luggage on and get their ticket scanned, and then the darn things get stuck in traffic yet on top of that. Yes I know BART has its bad days too, but on balance it usually runs on time and decently, especially in West Oakland where there is a train every couple minutes vs Richmond. Going the opposite way, you pretty much have to be a local to even know where the buses are picking up, or which bus is yours. A transfer station, if built right, could get all that done within a couple minutes and be into the City in 8 minutes instead of 20-30.

Richmond is a half an hour farther out than the West Oakland BART station. An extra half an hour riding BART too, not a comfortable full size train. A half an hour is a full commute for some people. I think Sac-SF traffic is a bonus, but I think the real job is getting a decent alternative to I-80 to get to the City. Yea, I still take the capitol corridor because I don't own a car, but it could be a heck of a lot more convenient with the last mile problem. I mean saying we shouldn't burden BART is ridiculous, let's stop infill all over the Bay Area just so we don't "burden BART". It is BART's job to keep up with what is given to it, they'll make the necessary improvements if and when they have to. As for BART tickets, since BART runs the capitol corridor I am sure they could work something out, perhaps printing a BART card with any ticket going to West Oakland. Usual travelers could just grab a clipper and the cap corridor could accept clipper cards.

But yes, I know very much about the old connection. It is a shame we tore down those tracks.

I do agree though, bringing back the direct rail connection should be a top priority over the next 50 years or so. Bringing the rail connection to the new Transbay Transit Center would link easily to ferries and buses to the North Bay, Caltrain to the Peninsula, etc. BART is planning to do this when it builds a second transbay tube. 2 tracks for standard gauge rail, 2 tracks for BART. This could be a stepping stone to that, though. Anyhow, this thread is about Sacramento transportation and I've thrown it a bit off topic so I apologize. Just thought these are all cool plans that could also affect people in Sacramento who visit the City and vice versa.

[Folks3000]

Originally Posted by wburg

Not sure if three transfers (minimum) with luggage and a higher fare would encourage anyone to go to the Oakland airport vs. Sacramento, but if you had to get to the Oakland airport via transit that would be a way to do it.

Waaait a sec...this is less than a mile from Oakland's Amtrak station. Wouldn't this mean relocating the Amtrak depot to an entirely new location, as well as repositioning the BART station from its current location? Wow, all of a sudden this sounds like a whole lot of work to shave ten minutes off a Sac/SF trip. As someone who makes that trip pretty frequently, I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. Looks like it is more of a retrospective by a former BART director, talking about paths not taken, rather than any sort of plan for the future. Incidentally, it also would have meant moving the Oakland Amtrak depot much farther away from downtown Oakland, and the city of Oakland might have their own concerns about that!

So the plan referenced is a stop in West Oakland on the capitol corridor and some sort of transfer platform between the West Oakland BART station and the new capitol corridor stop. The article is by an old guy who used to work for BART, BUT this is actually part of BART's long range plans (I am more familiar with them than I'd like to admit). Oakland's current Amtrak station would stay as it is, so would all of Oakland's BART stations. No relocations. Just one infill station on the capitol corridor and a connection to an existing BART station (using moving sidewalks kind of like at an airport).

http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2013/1...rts_future.php

This picture from last year shows a "West Oakland Intermodal" infill station on BART's plan. So it is definitely real and being discussed.

[Mr. Ozo]

Should Sacramento’s streetcars be modern or vintage looking?

Discuss.

Obviously I think that they need to Modern in funcution with low boarding and air conditioning. I think it might be cool if they were styled like a PCC Car though.

[enigma99a]

I would like to see a combo perhaps. Modern ones for capacity and convenience but some of the old PG&E ones on the weekends or certain times?

[wburg]

The practical reasons for modern streetcars outweigh the appeal of historic streetcars, and modern streetcars running past historic architecture look just as good as older streetcars. Low-floor access means they're better for bikes and don't need wheelchair ramps at each stop. Air conditioning, parts standardization and availability, already equipped with the technological devices needed (announcement PA, GPS, radio, etc) and, of course, they're still making 'em.

That said, it would be very very cool to restore Dain Domich's collection of historic PG&E cars and break them out for special occasions (if they run intermixed with modern cars, I think one can make the case for ADA access because there is an alternative available.)

[ozone]

So I haven't been keeping a close track (pun intended)what's going on with the streetcar but today I read that the biz/property owners in assessment district voted to go forward with it. Now it goes to a wider vote (not sure if it's a council district vote or not). Anyway, I was really interested to read that they plan on moving light rail off of K Street, over to H. If this is true I would be more than happy. For years I've been saying that the light rail on K Street was a big mistake because it ironically discourages the type street life most people want.

Also does anyone know how far east the streetcar line is planned to go? I've heard that it will stop at 12th, some say 16th. I want it to go as far as possible. I know there's issues with crossing the UP tracks but they should at least run it to 19th.

[ozone]

Does anyone know when 5th Street (I believe) through the Railyards is going to open?

[Mr. Ozo]

There are longer term plans to move Light Rail off K Street but funding for that is not included in this original bid to build the streetcar line. You have to build tracks from 8th to 12th on H street, not sure if they would add an H and 10th stop for city hall. I've heard 30 million thrown around as the price tag.

In the meantime, I guess they will share K Street with lightrail?

[wburg]

The Sacramento city council has already voted to support the streetcar program and spend $7 million on the project from various sources, and the federal government is putting up about half the cost--$70 million or so. West Sacramento voted to tax itself back in 2008, they are providing $25 million. The next vote for the streetcar is of registered voters who live within 3 blocks of the streetcar line, on the Sacramento side--about 3800 people. This is a vote to create a "Mello-Roos" special assessment district, which will only apply to property owners within 3 blocks. The vote requires a two-thirds majority to pass. If the vote passes, the city can borrow $30 million backed by the city bond for the remaining construction amount.

The streetcar line will extend all the way to 19th Street. It will run on K Street between 8th and 12th, then loop around the convention center on J and L Streets, with 19th Street the far end of the loop. Crossing over the Union Pacific tracks is a bigger hurdle, but other cities have done it.

There are also other directions for the streetcar line to expand--south along 3rd Street to Broadway, along Riverfront Boulevard into Southport using the old SN alignment, north into the Railyards itself (probably via 7th and H on the existing Green Line tracks) or south to Broadway along 15th/16th.

Rerouting light rail onto H Street will be more expensive per mile than the streetcar line (light rail is heavier and requires deeper trenching) but will help reroute the bigger, heavier cars off of K Street while still allowing a high level of service. I think the estimated cost is around $17 million. Figuring out how that's going to work is a bigger game, but feasibly they could coexist with streetcars for the first couple of years. Because K Street has signal priority for light rail trains (the signals sense when a train is approaching and override red lights to allow the train to clear) it's easier to run a lot of trains on a tight schedule on that stretch of K--and not a lot of auto traffic to compete with.

[creamcityleo79]

Just found this map on the SACOG site...why oh why oh why oh why does Elk Grove not have plans for their OWN streetcar/light rail/BRT/something system!??!?!?! The density is there to support it. But, there are no plans that I know of (except long-range plans to extend the Blue Line to Elk Grove...very long-range plans!).

http://www.sacog.org/infocenter/gis/...ionDensity.pdf

[ozone]

Originally Posted by creamcityleo79

Just found this map on the SACOG site...why oh why oh why oh why does Elk Grove not have plans for their OWN streetcar/light rail/BRT/something system!??!?!?! The density is there to support it. But, there are no plans that I know of (except long-range plans to extend the Blue Line to Elk Grove...very long-range plans!).

http://www.sacog.org/infocenter/gis/...ionDensity.pdf

You're joking right?

[Folks3000]

Originally Posted by creamcityleo79

Just found this map on the SACOG site...why oh why oh why oh why does Elk Grove not have plans for their OWN streetcar/light rail/BRT/something system!??!?!?! The density is there to support it. But, there are no plans that I know of (except long-range plans to extend the Blue Line to Elk Grove...very long-range plans!).

http://www.sacog.org/infocenter/gis/...ionDensity.pdf

Elk Grove and density in the same paragraph?